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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 16, 2018 6:56:04 GMT -5
I prefer to be called a Greasy Thug. What about Cheesy Thugs? Lord knows I get pissed when mozzarella is under represented. It’s the unjust Cheddar Supremacy theory that this country was founded on, that’s the problem. |
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Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
Posts: 5,569
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Apr 16, 2018 7:00:31 GMT -5
Here in Norway we're taught English since the first day of school yet most Norwegians have atrocious English accent, yet I weren't the slightest offended by Dude, Where's My Car?
As a gay man I'm not offended by gay stereotypes either, because even though they don't represent the majority, they still exist.
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sfvega
Grimlock
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Post by sfvega on Apr 16, 2018 7:05:00 GMT -5
The amount of people here willing to comment on the show while not getting the PC Thug reference is crazy. Great reference, btw. It never stops hurting.
As a Mexican, there were only two Mexican males (I think Pepe was hispanic) on the show in its prime, both voiced by white people one by a white woman. And Bumblebee Man was an even more egregious stereotype. And really, you couldn't pay me to give two shits about that. As someone who has actually been denied service for being brown, you would have a hard time convincing me that Hank Azaria voicing a brown guy (be it Indian or Mexican) is worth complaining about. Isn't that the whole point of progress? That many of the things that were acceptable (or more acceptable) then, aren't now? It's hard to compare this to blackface and some really awful caricatures of race throughout the history of TV or movies. Apu was presented as maybe the more thoughtful and wise of any character of the glory years of the show. And Azaria voiced Lou (the black police officer) and Bumblebee guy, and probably about 1/3rd of the characters on any given episode because he's a talented voice actor and already getting paid by the show. So yeah, it's very lazy and somewhat insensitive, especially in hindsight. But it seems like something incredibly minor to have such a huge issue with. I mean, if your biggest complaint about being an Indian person in the US is who Apu on the Simpsons is voiced by, isn't THAT progress?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 16, 2018 7:24:36 GMT -5
The amount of people here willing to comment on the show while not getting the PC Thug reference is crazy. Great reference, btw. It never stops hurting. As a Mexican, there were only two Mexican males (I think Pepe was hispanic) on the show in its prime, both voiced by white people one by a white woman. And Bumblebee Man was an even more egregious stereotype. And really, you couldn't pay me to give two shits about that. As someone who has actually been denied service for being brown, you would have a hard time convincing me that Hank Azaria voicing a brown guy (be it Indian or Mexican) is worth complaining about. Isn't that the whole point of progress? That many of the things that were acceptable (or more acceptable) then, aren't now? It's hard to compare this to blackface and some really awful caricatures of race throughout the history of TV or movies. Apu was presented as maybe the more thoughtful and wise of any character of the glory years of the show. And Azaria voiced Lou (the black police officer) and Bumblebee guy, and probably about 1/3rd of the characters on any given episode because he's a talented voice actor and already getting paid by the show. So yeah, it's very lazy and somewhat insensitive, especially in hindsight. But it seems like something incredibly minor to have such a huge issue with. I mean, if your biggest complaint about being an Indian person in the US is who Apu on the Simpsons is voiced by, isn't THAT progress? None of that means that Apu still doesn’t represent some troubling things, or that there still isn’t more work to be done. As a black man, I’m not comfortable with Lou and Carl being voiced by white actors either. I had a similar issue with Cleveland Brown from Family Guy. That never should have been okay in the first place. |
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Kyn
Don Corleone
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 7:27:52 GMT -5
Google tells that Apu's been there since the first season, which was 89/90ish? I'm unfamiliar with a lot of US tv, particularly that era; can anyone point me to shows from a similar time period that also had an Indian American character (whether positively/negatively/stereotypically) portrayed? I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time.
(Please don't misread this and put words in my mouth. Literally, I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time. That's all).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:34:35 GMT -5
Google tells that Apu's been there since the first season, which was 89/90ish? I'm unfamiliar with a lot of US tv, particularly that era; can anyone point me to shows from a similar time period that also had an Indian American character (whether positively/negatively/stereotypically) portrayed? I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time. (Please don't misread this and put words in my mouth. Literally, I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time. That's all). The documentary about the subject, "The Problem With Apu" explains that time period, and also is central to this discussion. |
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Kyn
Don Corleone
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 7:38:14 GMT -5
Google tells that Apu's been there since the first season, which was 89/90ish? I'm unfamiliar with a lot of US tv, particularly that era; can anyone point me to shows from a similar time period that also had an Indian American character (whether positively/negatively/stereotypically) portrayed? I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time. (Please don't misread this and put words in my mouth. Literally, I'm wondering how Apu's characterisation compares to how other Indian American characters were shown at the time. That's all). The documentary about the subject, "The Problem With Apu" explains that time period, and also is central to this discussion. It also clearly has an agenda. And that's fine, I'm not saying their agenda is wrong, but it's not what I'm currently asking for. I'd just like to have a few forum members point me in the direction of what they remember, if they don't mind. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:41:29 GMT -5
Apu is one of the more intelligent and hardworking characters on the show. f***ing babies. I dunno what he's like now im only going by classic simpsons. No he isn’t. He’s a terrible, god awful store manager. he once worked 96 hours straight |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:43:18 GMT -5
The documentary about the subject, "The Problem With Apu" explains that time period, and also is central to this discussion. It also clearly has an agenda. And that's fine, I'm not saying their agenda is wrong, but it's not what I'm currently asking for. I'd just like to have a few forum members point me in the direction of what they remember, if they don't mind. I recommend watching the documentary and not immediately writing it off. It's pretty essential to understanding the central issue here. |
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Kyn
Don Corleone
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 7:47:31 GMT -5
It also clearly has an agenda. And that's fine, I'm not saying their agenda is wrong, but it's not what I'm currently asking for. I'd just like to have a few forum members point me in the direction of what they remember, if they don't mind. I recommend watching the documentary and not immediately writing it off. It's pretty essential to understanding the central issue here. I'm not writing it off. But when I start looking into things, I prefer to get a feel for the background from neutral sources before I move on to ones that I know have bias or an agenda. It's like how I wouldn't recommend anyone who was interested in learning about obesity in America start by watching Super Size Me. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:51:03 GMT -5
I don't know how to embed tweets, but here's a great thread on the problem with Apu. twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/985151736913408000Important to note here, what we now recognize as offensive and racist stereotypes, a lot of times weren't perceived as such at the time. But those affected by them were heard and those depictions were frowned upon. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:51:23 GMT -5
Again, this isn't something that was perfectly fine and dandy 20 years ago, it was offensive back then too. Same as many things from our recent cultural history the difference is that that now, perhaps for the first time in history, marginalised people complaining about things actually have a voice that can be heard thanks to the internet and social media. The Simpsons creators should have known it was shitty when Azaria first did his racist impression. As far as "No apology will be sufficient" goes please point me to where they've tried to apologise in any way, shape or form to try and bring about some harmony, rather than attacking anyone who points out the issues? (While I'm here, does anyone remember the episode where Lisa was called a 'PC thug' despite being entirely correct about her critical analysis of a beloved cultural figure/property?) The section where I mentioned no apology being enough was the section I began by saying I was speaking broadly now, about society in general, not the Simpsons specifically. You've asked me to point to something I never said existed. It's funny (interesting, not ha-ha) the way people will read something and assign a totally different meaning to it than what those words mean. It's also funny (in the same way) the way people watch the same show and see different things. I'd always thought of Apu as an intelligent, hardworking family man who was a bit of a foil to the stupidity of Homer. Other people saw a racist caricature. I'm not saying either side is right, just that it's interesting the different ways people interpret the same media. The irony is that because Manjula & the Octuplets were Mike Scully era creations & Jean has essentially undone everything that was done in the Mirkin/Oakley & Weinstein/Scully eras with the exception of Maude's death, they've virtually been retired, and before some of you suggest she got the Troy McClure/Lionel Hutz treatment, Tress replaced Jan Hooks long before her death. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:54:27 GMT -5
The documentary about the subject, "The Problem With Apu" explains that time period, and also is central to this discussion. It also clearly has an agenda. And that's fine, I'm not saying their agenda is wrong, but it's not what I'm currently asking for. I'd just like to have a few forum members point me in the direction of what they remember, if they don't mind. In honesty, I don't think there was much ethnicity besides blacks on television at the time. Asians operated terrible restaurants, actual Africans were lousy cab drivers, and that was about it. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 16, 2018 7:54:29 GMT -5
I don't know how to embed tweets, but here's a great thread on the problem with Apu. Important to note here, what we now recognize as offensive and racist stereotypes, a lot of times weren't perceived as such at the time. But those affected by them were heard and those depictions were frowned upon. So much this, this is a very informative thread. (warning: some of those images are pretty disturbing) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 7:56:10 GMT -5
I recommend watching the documentary and not immediately writing it off. It's pretty essential to understanding the central issue here. I'm not writing it off. But when I start looking into things, I prefer to get a feel for the background from neutral sources before I move on to ones that I know have bias or an agenda. It's like how I wouldn't recommend anyone who was interested in learning about obesity in America start by watching Super Size Me. There really isn't neutrality in America these days. It's better to examine all the arguments as an outsider and decide for yourself which works. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 16, 2018 7:56:22 GMT -5
The section where I mentioned no apology being enough was the section I began by saying I was speaking broadly now, about society in general, not the Simpsons specifically. You've asked me to point to something I never said existed. It's funny (interesting, not ha-ha) the way people will read something and assign a totally different meaning to it than what those words mean. It's also funny (in the same way) the way people watch the same show and see different things. I'd always thought of Apu as an intelligent, hardworking family man who was a bit of a foil to the stupidity of Homer. Other people saw a racist caricature. I'm not saying either side is right, just that it's interesting the different ways people interpret the same media. The irony is that because Manjula & the Octuplets were Mike Scully era creations & Jean has essentially undone everything that was done in the Mirkin/Oakley & Weinstein/Scully eras with the exception of Maude's death, they've virtually been retired, and before some of you suggest she got the Troy McClure/Lionel Hutz treatment, Tress replaced Jan Hooks long before her death. I mean, in a different/related sense, that seems to be a problem with Al Jean. The guy has 1 specific version of The Simpsons he wants to do, a safe version, nothing will grow, nothing will change. The irony is when you look back at those shows, they were taking risks, it was subversive, even the style of drawing was more experimental. Used to be you'd get a new show runner every couple of years, get new people, new ideas etc. How long as he been back? No way he's going to acknowledge that something should be different now than it was in 1993. |
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Kyn
Don Corleone
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Post by Kyn on Apr 16, 2018 7:56:50 GMT -5
I don't know how to embed tweets, but here's a great thread on the problem with Apu. Important to note here, what we now recognize as offensive and racist stereotypes, a lot of times weren't perceived as such at the time. But those affected by them were heard and those depictions were frowned upon. That's a fascinating series of tweets. |
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 16, 2018 7:57:27 GMT -5
I recommend watching the documentary and not immediately writing it off. It's pretty essential to understanding the central issue here. I'm not writing it off. But when I start looking into things, I prefer to get a feel for the background from neutral sources before I move on to ones that I know have bias or an agenda. It's like how I wouldn't recommend anyone who was interested in learning about obesity in America start by watching Super Size Me. Every documentary has an agenda. That’s their purpose, to highlight an issue and argue for a viewpoint. And Kondabolu does try to look at the problem from multiple perspectives, including those who don’t find Apu troublesome. If one watches the entire doc, it’s not hard to see where his frustration is coming from. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 16, 2018 8:01:49 GMT -5
I recommend watching the documentary and not immediately writing it off. It's pretty essential to understanding the central issue here. I'm not writing it off. But when I start looking into things, I prefer to get a feel for the background from neutral sources before I move on to ones that I know have bias or an agenda. It's like how I wouldn't recommend anyone who was interested in learning about obesity in America start by watching Super Size Me. That's not really how to approach documentary work, though, unless we're discussing documentaries that are poorly sourced/unsourced/shady about their sources. That's the bigger thing to read up on: if the work itself is well sourced, then it's still possible to quibble with the findings it had or how it interpreted its research, but at least there's a core to work off of, there. Like, if one were to read a scholarly analysis of colonial American economics that placed a great deal of emphasis on the impact of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, one would not look past its work just because it might have been written by an African-American researcher...I know, papers like that are often peer reviewed while documentaries don't always get that treatment, but I'm just talking overall approach. (EDIT: Should add, there are certainly those in academia who will use their positions to push spurious findings, but thankfully this isn't a particularly widespread problem, even if those who engage in such practices stick out like sore thumbs). |
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sfvega
Grimlock
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Post by sfvega on Apr 16, 2018 8:04:17 GMT -5
The amount of people here willing to comment on the show while not getting the PC Thug reference is crazy. Great reference, btw. It never stops hurting. As a Mexican, there were only two Mexican males (I think Pepe was hispanic) on the show in its prime, both voiced by white people one by a white woman. And Bumblebee Man was an even more egregious stereotype. And really, you couldn't pay me to give two shits about that. As someone who has actually been denied service for being brown, you would have a hard time convincing me that Hank Azaria voicing a brown guy (be it Indian or Mexican) is worth complaining about. Isn't that the whole point of progress? That many of the things that were acceptable (or more acceptable) then, aren't now? It's hard to compare this to blackface and some really awful caricatures of race throughout the history of TV or movies. Apu was presented as maybe the more thoughtful and wise of any character of the glory years of the show. And Azaria voiced Lou (the black police officer) and Bumblebee guy, and probably about 1/3rd of the characters on any given episode because he's a talented voice actor and already getting paid by the show. So yeah, it's very lazy and somewhat insensitive, especially in hindsight. But it seems like something incredibly minor to have such a huge issue with. I mean, if your biggest complaint about being an Indian person in the US is who Apu on the Simpsons is voiced by, isn't THAT progress? None of that means that Apu still doesn’t represent some troubling things, or that there still isn’t more work to be done. As a black man, I’m not comfortable with Lou and Carl being voiced by white actors either. I had a similar issue with Cleveland Brown from Family Guy. That never should have been okay in the first place. Yes, that first paragraph is where the insensitive and progress part come in. Also, this is a cartoon. So while men and women being played by men and women respectively, minorities being played by their true races/ethnicities would be great. But you don't see them, so they think people won't care. And budgeting for many characters to have its own actor wasn't really something I'm sure they wanted to do/was feasible. And again, that is a lot of cartoons' MO, to have voice actors who do a bunch of voices on the show. The problem I see is that the voice itself is a bad caricature and insensitive. The writing of the character isn't especially poor and the fact it is voiced by Azaria was probably just out of convenience to begin with and continuity after, and just pettiness and laziness to not have an actual Indian character at this point, even if it is separate from Apu. But from the standpoint of respresentation, I think it is worse that pretty much every show at the time didn't have an Indian character moreso than a cartoon doing one half-assed. |
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