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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 17, 2018 9:23:09 GMT -5
Sometimes it is okay to say, 'I never thought of it that way' instead of being defensive. Pretty much. Especially if, as mentioned, those people have different experiences from you. Like, again, nobody is saying you CAN'T keep doing the stuff you have been for years. Just that there's consequences for that and it should be recognised rather than acting like freedom of speech is being taken away when nobody can actually do that. As someone with anxiety and Autism, I do overthink stuff a lot about how I come off to people and whether I'm making them feel comfortable but then I calm myself and remember that they probably have anxiety as someone of a different gender/race/background which is probably worse than me, a straight white man with Autism, so making them feel comfortable is worth it. Along with the fact that, if they feel comfortable in the fandoms I love, they get interested, buy more tickets/t-shirts/games etc and more money is made. Literally nobody loses in that.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 17, 2018 9:43:23 GMT -5
...it took HOW many years before raising eyebrows? It's been raising eyebrows from 25 years dude. Kids would be calling Indian kids Apu or doing the 'thank you come again' thing to them throughout high school and my later years of primary school. Thats because a lot of kids are mean and stupid. That's not the shows fault. A mean kid could call an Indian kid Raj today. Is that the Big Bangs fault? Kids said mean things to me. Most kids were bullied unless you were the bully. The timing on this doc is years late. No one watches the Simpsons any more. There is plenty of Indian representation on TV now. Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Kal Penn, Asif Mandvhi, Russell Peters, Shawn Majunder, the guy who plays Raj etc. That's just off the top of my head. This guy wasted all this time and effort on a doc that amounts to "some kids were mean to me when I was a kid"
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 17, 2018 10:20:48 GMT -5
Like half the people you mentioned are IN the doc talkin bout their experiences and how it sucked for them though.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 17, 2018 10:27:29 GMT -5
Like half the people you mentioned are IN the doc talkin bout their experiences and how it sucked for them though. And notice how most of those people had to get credible enough in the industry to do their own stuff to even get headway.
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Post by Aboutreika18 on Apr 17, 2018 10:38:12 GMT -5
I'll give my two cents as a South Asian, albeit not Indian (not that you guys could tell the difference ). I've personally never really found Apu's depiction offensive, although I'm not sure if that's the goodwill The Simpsons have built up over the years clouding my judgement. In general, I think he's been a well-written and interesting character. The accent can be a bit uncomfortable though, while in general it's fine and even funny, accent jokes are even something South Asians will engage in, there's always that element of it being a white voice actor and are the non-Asians laughing at you, even if you're finding it funny. It's a bit like the Shera shitty English jokes on here, which I did mostly find funny and even made a few of my own but there's always that uncertain element behind them, if that makes sense. I thought the creator's response/fanning the flames was pretty childish and unnecessary, rather than giving an intelligent and thoughtful support of the character. But another to consider, I'm a British Asian and the relationship between South Asia and Britain is much stronger than the US and South Asia, from what I've seen. British TV/radio representation of South Asians has generally been pretty good for decades now, so for an Asian like me, while there is obviously still room for improvement, I've never really had to look far for people like me on different mediums over here. I think it might be very different for American (South) Asians and so they might not take to a character like Apu when they have such limited representation but I don't get the complete picture of what's going over there, so I'm only hypothesising.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Apr 17, 2018 10:44:20 GMT -5
Best thing the Simpson's can do is just turn Apu straight up into the character he portrayed on the episode where his green card had expired and just never mention the change. Also change his last name to Apu Debeaumarchais like the B Sharps episode... again never address it.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 17, 2018 10:50:47 GMT -5
I'll give my two cents as a South Asian, albeit not Indian (not that you guys could tell the difference ). I've personally never really found Apu's depiction offensive, although I'm not sure if that's the goodwill The Simpsons have built up over the years clouding my judgement. In general, I think he's been a well-written and interesting character. The accent can be a bit uncomfortable though, while in general it's fine and even funny, accent jokes are even something South Asians will engage in, there's always that element of it being a white voice actor and are the non-Asians laughing at you, even if you're finding it funny. It's a bit like the Shera shitty English jokes on here, which I did mostly find funny and even made a few of my own but there's always that uncertain element behind them, if that makes sense. I thought the creator's response/fanning the flames was pretty childish and unnecessary, rather than giving an intelligent and thoughtful support of the character. But another to consider, I'm a British Asian and the relationship between South Asia and Britain is much stronger than the US and South Asia, from what I've seen. British TV/radio representation of South Asians has generally been pretty good for decades now, so for an Asian like me, while there is obviously still room for improvement, I've never really had to look far for people like me on different mediums over here. I think it might be very different for American (South) Asians and so they might not take to a character like Apu when they have such limited representation but I don't get the complete picture of what's going over there, so I'm only hypothesising. Not to talk over you, but I do think stuff like Goodness Gracious Me, whilst not perfect, kind of helped in showcasing the talent we had in terms of Asian talent which was something that America never really had until just recently. But even the people on that show and the Kumars would tell you that representation was something that still needed work and it's only been the last few years that those actors were able to come out from that shell and do more serious work. And there's a lot politically about that stuff that can't really be talked about as much but there was a factor of the era where Asians were accepted more because of the business they brought into the country. Again, there's an underbelly there that still hasn't been addressed by those in power but still, that's somewhat of what I remember about that period.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 17, 2018 11:10:41 GMT -5
The Simpsons should have ended over a decade ago or at least gone on hiatus to let the people involved pause to generate new ideas about how to progress with the show. Instead it's slogged on and on, basically carried by celebrity cameos at this point and the people who've been involved for the long term lost the plot, their heads travelled so far up their backsides they came out the other side somewhere and now they exist in a state that resembles a balled up flesh coloured sock and use a character that resembles that, in comic book guy, to paint their audience as nerds and whiners.
Something being okay when you started doesn't mean it should be immune to criticism in the present day, look at what was acceptable when Disney started out, song of the sodding south. Television has moved on from where things were in the early nineties, the world has moved on and so should the Simpsons. It would cost them little to hire voice actors that better suit the roles they play and would generate them some goodwill from the generation of kids who grew up being taunted using the stereotype they created.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 17, 2018 12:01:45 GMT -5
Like half the people you mentioned are IN the doc talkin bout their experiences and how it sucked for them though. When I was a kid people thought Canadians were like Bob and Doug McKenzie. Hockey lovin, beer drinking dummies. Maybe I should make a doc about how SCTV ruined my life.
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Post by hossfan on Apr 17, 2018 12:12:03 GMT -5
Simpsons should introduce a second Indian character, voiced by an Indian actor, who doesn't adhere to the standard Indian stereotypes.
They can call him Apu-chie.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 17, 2018 12:12:56 GMT -5
Like half the people you mentioned are IN the doc talkin bout their experiences and how it sucked for them though. When I was a kid people thought Canadians were like Bob and Doug McKenzie. Hockey lovin, beer drinking dummies. Maybe I should make a doc about how SCTV ruined my life. You'd have more of a case if SCTV was still running and Bob and Doug were one ofthe few canadians in pop culture
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Post by Dub H on Apr 17, 2018 12:15:14 GMT -5
The only thing I really have to add about the topic is that I don't mind Voice Actors for different voice roles.
EXCEPT if you are voicing something really realistic where you can easily notice and if you want a character to sound of that origin,if you want your mexican character to have a mexican accent,hire a mexican voice actor.
For example Overwatch is good at it. The ONLY character that breaks this rule is Lucio,which is a black Brazilian character voiced by a tanned american.Of course I don't expect every company to go and search the globe for voice actors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 12:17:09 GMT -5
I'm a little confused. I saw the episode in question and what was quoted here is a bit out of context. It makes it seem a lot douchier than what she actually said.
The exchange here is clearly Marge being the older person who isn't actually offended, but means well. She doesn't want to offend other people, but doesn't know how to balance what she loves with what is acceptable. Lisa is representing the voice of reason and points out that there isn't anything she CAN do to balance those two concepts. People are going to be offended by these things now whether she likes them or not. Marge points out that these things will be taken care of as time goes on. Lisa adds "if at all" which I took to mean that the Simpsons has been around a very long time and who knows how much time it has left to even make a big change in the voice actor and characterization of Apu before it's just over.
I took the scene as an acknowledgement of the issue and a desire to change, but a loss of direction on what should be done with the time they have left. Others seem to be taking it as a "f*** YOU MILLENIALS!" which just doesn't seem to be present in this at all.
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 17, 2018 12:46:11 GMT -5
I'm also of the mind that there are more positive-minded, well-intentioned activists and allies out there than people think. I'd rather someone go too far in attempting to be compassionate than go too far trying to shut down people who voice concerns on stuff like this, for certain. However, one thing I'll definitely agree with is that there are too many free-floating think piece sites out there with editors who are just hungry for hate clicks, so they'll run about anything. A white guy "currently residing in Brooklyn" trying to communicate on issues like this, yeah, that smacks of an editor saying "Get me a hot take on this story and get it to me fresh", all while the writer just tries to play up an angle that'll get a buzz going without much substance. A white writer communicating experiences with Indian/Laotian/etc. associates and friends would have more to say, but speaking as a straight cis white dude in America, it's certainly obnoxious to hear from fellow straight cis white dudes from America who pretend they know what a real identity affront feels like; at best what we can offer is shutting up and listening, or communicating support for other traditionally ignored groups who want to be heard now that more visible speech platforms exist, and being respectful when entering into dialog on this stuff. Beyond that it just goes into theatrics. I'll grant some leeway for, say, college kids, as I mentioned before; a kid who wants to do the right thing and ends up being overzealous is a kid I'd rather have to deal with than one who wants to be an instigating troll. Once you're in the professional realm, it's time to grow and listen more. Yeah, I think a good example about this was some white TV critic on Slate bashing the Big Bang Theory and calling Raj racist because of his accent. But Kunal Nayyar, Raj's actor, is from India and actually talks like that. The accent isn't exaggerated or played for laughs. It's his real accent. But I agree that I'd generally rather deal with people who at least err on the side of compassion and human decency than the people yelling about SJW's and PC Police. Apu was one of my favorite characters on The Simpsons when I still watched it religiously, and I admit when I was a kid that when the Indian clerk at 7-Eleven said "Thank you, come again" with an accent, I giggled outside the store because he sounded just like Apu. Life imitates art that imitates life. But times change and we grow. Ultimately, I think it's just best to defer to Indians and how they feel about this. They're also not going to be a hive mind on this subject, but it affects them the most as a marginalized population. We've come far, but we have so much further to go. Technology has just come to a point that it allows more people access to voice grievances that were previously left unheard.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 17, 2018 12:46:21 GMT -5
When I was a kid people thought Canadians were like Bob and Doug McKenzie. Hockey lovin, beer drinking dummies. Maybe I should make a doc about how SCTV ruined my life. You'd have more of a case if SCTV was still running and Bob and Doug were one ofthe few canadiansu in pop culture I stopped watching Simpsons in the early 2000s so sometimes I forget it's still on. In the 80s there weren't that many Canadian characters. Actors sure but not characters. We got stereotyped even harder by a stereotype parody because of this. The same thing happened with Apu. But I don't think any of it was meant to be mean spirited. He had an accent. No different than a Canadian character saying 'Eh'. RDJ played a Brit. Was his accent offensive? Ok probably to some but that's an accuracy issue. Dave Chappelle played white guys on his show. A race/culture interpreting another can be funny. As long as it's not mean spirited. Apu is a far cry from say, Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffanys. Their only crime is not having the foresight to introduce more Indian characters faster, so it would be harder for ignorant bigots to use a single character as a target. And because their were no other Indian characters on TV at the time. Apu opened the door for more Indian visibility on US tv. It was a bit of a rocky start sure, but it's lead us to now, which are calm waters. Plenty of mostly positive Indian representation on US tv. It just doesn't seem like a boat that needs to be rocked right now.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 17, 2018 13:28:12 GMT -5
You'd have more of a case if SCTV was still running and Bob and Doug were one ofthe few canadiansu in pop culture I stopped watching Simpsons in the early 2000s so sometimes I forget it's still on. In the 80s there weren't that many Canadian characters. Actors sure but not characters. We got stereotyped even harder by a stereotype parody because of this. The same thing happened with Apu. But I don't think any of it was meant to be mean spirited. He had an accent. No different than a Canadian character saying 'Eh'. RDJ played a Brit. Was his accent offensive? Ok probably to some but that's an accuracy issue. Dave Chappelle played white guys on his show. A race/culture interpreting another can be funny. As long as it's not mean spirited. Apu is a far cry from say, Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffanys. Their only crime is not having the foresight to introduce more Indian characters faster, so it would be harder for ignorant bigots to use a single character as a target. And because their were no other Indian characters on TV at the time. Apu opened the door for more Indian visibility on US tv. It was a bit of a rocky start sure, but it's lead us to now, which are calm waters. Plenty of mostly positive Indian representation on US tv. It just doesn't seemlike boat that needs to be rocked right now. Is it really not a matter of foresight if they're still doing after they're aware. There's nothing stopping them doing something about it. Next season, they could bring in a Bollywood actor voiced by an Indian actor, use him as either a big shot or washed up actor for Hollywood jokes. Yes at the time it was an increase in representation but it's not 1990, they're making cartoons in 2018 and should act like it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 13:38:00 GMT -5
You'd have more of a case if SCTV was still running and Bob and Doug were one ofthe few canadiansu in pop culture I stopped watching Simpsons in the early 2000s so sometimes I forget it's still on. In the 80s there weren't that many Canadian characters. Actors sure but not characters. We got stereotyped even harder by a stereotype parody because of this. The same thing happened with Apu. But I don't think any of it was meant to be mean spirited. He had an accent. No different than a Canadian character saying 'Eh'. RDJ played a Brit. Was his accent offensive? Ok probably to some but that's an accuracy issue. Dave Chappelle played white guys on his show. A race/culture interpreting another can be funny. As long as it's not mean spirited. Apu is a far cry from say, Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffanys. Their only crime is not having the foresight to introduce more Indian characters faster, so it would be harder for ignorant bigots to use a single character as a target. And because their were no other Indian characters on TV at the time. Apu opened the door for more Indian visibility on US tv. It was a bit of a rocky start sure, but it's lead us to now, which are calm waters. Plenty of mostly positive Indian representation on US tv. It just doesn't seem like a boat that needs to be rocked right now. The Simpsons have introduced multiple Indian characters, but by and large, all have been forgotten. *Sanjay: Apu's brother, who was created so Harry Shearer could play an Indian. Largely forgotten for almost two decades before being brought back to retire for good. *Sanjay's Family: Very little was ever known about them. No development whatsoever. *Manjula: Brought in and had a major role in the Mike Scully era of the series, largely forgotten now. *The Octuplets: See Manjula. So, the problem isn't "We need more Indians", but rather "We need to actually do something with them". For example, the most recent episode introduced Moe's father and siblings, but by and large, we will never see those three ever again because they were "outsiders", and in Al Jean's Simpsons, "outside" is "bad". It's that kind of narrow-scoped view of the world that stunts growth and yields the aforementioned contempt at criticism. That was also the sort of logic that insisted that the main family had to be a central part of each episode, regardless of whether or not the episode's central character was a family member.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 13:39:10 GMT -5
They could have addressed it by having Apu come out and say that he’s been putting on the accent since the beginning because back then the only accents most people in Springfield had heard were the sterotypical ones and that doing the accent was the only way he thought he would be accepted and then the lie got too big so he had to keep it up, even around Manjula but he’s realised that society has evolved and he doesn’t have to put on the accent anymore
I mean that’s a start and took less time to think of than to animate a frame of the Simpsons
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 17, 2018 13:56:22 GMT -5
Hockey lovin, beer drinking dummies. Throw in some snowmobiles, toques and smokes and that is a shockingly accurate description of my circle of friends
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Apr 17, 2018 13:59:41 GMT -5
Hockey lovin, beer drinking dummies. Throw in some snowmobiles, toques and smokes and that is a shockingly accurate description of my circle of friends I moved here from Can-a-da and they think I’m slow.....eh.
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