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Post by eJm on May 18, 2018 4:43:40 GMT -5
He's not wrong but it also disturbs me the idea that the main reason to support WWE is because they pay the most for talent. I mean, I GET it, but at the same time, it basically justifies WWE's wrecking of the industry to where they're the number one company in the world and nobody else can pay the same regardless because of it. It'd be like if a Wal Mart or a Tesco were the only big brand store in the world and the only way to get good prices for food is to go there instead of smaller stores. In our case, there's still Aldi, Lidl, Centra and others to at least put some competition and keep prices good or to at least allow customers to pick and choose.
Personally, I'm put off by WWE's booking of talent recently so I'm trying to go to more indie shows to support them and their growth. Because then those talents can be paid better, get noticed by WWE and signed by WWE. I'd rather a WCW come up but that's probably not going to happen in our lifetime without a billionaire admitting they're a wrestling fan.
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Post by Prince Petty on May 18, 2018 5:30:12 GMT -5
I have no problem whatsoever with the WWE signing indie guys away from their companies. In theory. Because Joe is right that they deserve to get paid. But in practice, the problems occur when there's really nowhere for them to go in the WWE, because of the absurdly stacked roster and the long shelf life of most wrestlers in the company (look at Ziggler. Done nothing of consequence for a long time, but still been a midcard mainstay for ten years). And you still have guys like Cena and Orton, who have been mainstays for fifteen years, but show few signs of wanting to step away from the business.
So you end up with situations like Finn Balor or Sami Zayn, where a guy is extremely talented, and loved by a lot of fans, but he's just a nobody in the WWE, because there's no room at the top, and the midcard is always just a 'balanced booking' morass. And sure, they're getting paid more by the WWE, which, as Joe points out, is the number one priority for young guys trying to make a living. But at some point most of them are going to hit a barrier of frustration or, worse, be deemed surplus to requirements and released.
The WWE's pipeline of indie > NXT > WWE only works if there's an outlet at the other end, to move guys on and clear space for the new stars you're signing. Otherwise you just get stagnation and overflow. And it's arguable whether the WWE could ever do justice to a lot of the talent they bring in, with the way they book their programming. They never seem to have more than about six to ten wrestlers who actually matter, across both brands.
This is why competition to the WWE is so vital to the industry. Not only does it force the WWE to try harder to be better, but it gives wrestlers the opportunity to make money in more than just one company, and hopefully find one that can maximise their value at the same time.
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Post by eJm on May 18, 2018 5:40:53 GMT -5
I have no problem whatsoever with the WWE signing indie guys away from their companies. In theory. Because Joe is right that they deserve to get paid. But in practice, the problems occur when there's really nowhere for them to go in the WWE, because of the absurdly stacked roster and the long shelf life of most wrestlers in the company (look at Ziggler. Done nothing of consequence for a long time, but still been a midcard mainstay for ten years). And you still have guys like Cena and Orton, who have been mainstays for fifteen years, but show few signs of wanting to step away from the business. So you end up with situations like Finn Balor or Sami Zayn, where a guy is extremely talented, and loved by a lot of fans, but he's just a nobody in the WWE, because there's no room at the top, and the midcard is always just a 'balanced booking' morass. And sure, they're getting paid more by the WWE, which, as Joe points out, is the number one priority for young guys trying to make a living. But at some point most of them are going to hit a barrier of frustration or, worse, be deemed surplus to requirements and released. The WWE's pipeline of indie > NXT > WWE only works if there's an outlet at the other end, to move guys on and clear space for the new stars you're signing. Otherwise you just get stagnation and overflow. And it's arguable whether the WWE could ever do justice to a lot of the talent they bring in, with the way they book their programming. They never seem to have more than about six to ten wrestlers who actually matter, across both brands. This is why competition to the WWE is so vital to the industry. Not only does it force the WWE to try harder to be better, but it gives wrestlers the opportunity to make money in more than just one company, and hopefully find one that can maximise their value at the same time. But it's also the reason that the UK division experiment is interesting. Sure, people like British Strong Style can't go to Japan and tour there but it's not like they don't have the opportunity to go to any fed in the UK and face anyone they want to or even travel to America with PROGRESS and face anyone. Sure, a lot of people would love them to be on the main show but considering the lack of room there is for the people in NXT, that doesn't seem like a good prospect. So instead, they're paid WWE money, they're paid indie money and they don't have to travel day after day week after week across America waiting for the WWE audience to either click with them or not get them and get shuffled off to Main Event or whatever and have a thousand threads on here about how they suck etc. Like, yeah, it hoarding but it's the closest WWE's going to get with the independent contractor concept.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on May 18, 2018 5:45:37 GMT -5
I mean he makes the point like a paper gangster, but obviously in an industry so unstable you're going to want to go where the income is regular and you can't really blame anybody for that.
But otherwise, the indies are always going to be there and new talent is always on the way up. So many of the people who make it do so because of the good will and hard work they put in on the indies. WWE needs these feds as much as fans. I'm glad so many of my favourites are on a huge platform making mega bucks, but the product and presentation of them all is so bad that I haven't watched or supported the company for a very very long time. These are the guys who've got Gran Metalik on f***ing Main Event and turned 205 Live into Jakked. Like smooth Chuckie T said, NXT is Ramones shirts sold at Walmart.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 18, 2018 7:46:33 GMT -5
I'm all for guys getting paid, but who is to say a lot of these guys get paid all that much in WWE? I mean Joe or AJ have main evented PPVs, so of course they are getting paid. But someone like Austin Aries just dicked around on 205 Live for a while and claims he makes more money back on the indies now. I think it is more of a situation where someone needs the pay day and they are in a position to make that money. Guys who endured a decade on TNA TV definitely have earned the right to make as much as humanly possible and obviously give WWE a veteran presence. Other guys just don't fit in that well in WWE and are better off on the indies. This is a good point that does get overlooked sometimes: whether or not WWE is in a wrestler's overall best interests is a question that can really only be answered on a case by case basis. There's no doubt that WWE is a wrestler's best chance at a huge pay day; there's also no doubt that WWE can potentially offer steady pay in an industry where that can be hard to come by. But it's also a place where it can be easy to get lost in the shuffle and end up making less than you believe you're worth, and it's also a place where you have to be very comfortable betting on yourself getting that big pay day, because it's not guaranteed. I'd kind of categorize it like this, in terms of wrestlers who likely would be best served going to WWE: -Younger "can't miss" talent: the Ricochet's and Keith Lee's of the world (like the Kevin Steen's and El Generico's before them) likely feel they have what it takes to not only get signed to WWE, but make a big impact in NXT and quickly make their way to the main roster and get into a featured spot. This is not guaranteed, mind you, but people in this category were likely already in top positions on the indies or in featured promotions like ROH, Lucha Underground, etc. You know who they are. -Veterans who can name their terms: the category that Samoa Joe basically invented in this modern era, plus guys like AJ, Nakamura, Roode, etc. These guys have already made pretty good money, would like a new challenge or the possibility of a bigger payout, and since they're already pretty well off they're able to negotiate pretty favorable contract terms for themselves (i.e. AJ coming in straight to the main roster and almost immediately making over one million a year). If Kenny Omega ever went to WWE, this is the category he'd fall into. -Midcard types who like the job security: though I'm sure they can do alright for themselves, Heath Slater or Curt Hawkins (who did a fun indy run not that long ago) aren't likely looking at big money potential on the indies. I don't say that to disparage them, they just work a style that maybe doesn't lend itself as much to that scene, though I'm sure both guys are talented enough to prove that wrong in the right circumstances. Still, again, if I'm an indy guy looking for steady paychecks and WWE comes calling, I'd be really hard pressed to say no, even if I still have to pay out of pocket for a lot of expenses and may not be making blow away money. But like you say, there are guys like Aries who went there and did fine, but was able to do even better outside of WWE; stories like his likely serve as a bit of a heads up for wrestlers like, say, Marty Scurll, a smaller guy who'd be pegged for 205 Live if he went to WWE, but who in the meantime is a top indy draw making excellent money because he has a style and demeanor that works for that scene (plus a great capacity for hustling to sell his merch/brand/etc.). That's a category of talent that's growing in recent years, spearheaded by the Being the Elite guys but certainly joined by a number of others, but it's also still pretty limited overall. Hopefully with more support for indies/international wrestling that scene can keep growing and lead to more and more talent being able to make a full time living without needing WWE, or being able to sign with WWE on more favorable contract terms.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on May 18, 2018 7:49:21 GMT -5
WWE has never had more talent or worse writing, but I can't blame guys for making that move. Guys like Samoa Joe making bank is only a good thing, and while WWE defintely created an atmosphere where only WWE is able to bring that kind of money outside of a very narrow few people, dude spent most of his career in a company that has itself to blame for what it got into and how they lost all their talented guys and stopped being a place you could make good money in.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 18, 2018 7:49:51 GMT -5
Triple H Sunken Place.
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Post by Tenshigure on May 18, 2018 8:03:21 GMT -5
He's not wrong but it also disturbs me the idea that the main reason to support WWE is because they pay the most for talent. That's not how I read his comment, I read it more as "stop giving the boys and girls shit for staying with the WWE despite them not being booked the way you think they should be booked." I mean, take for example Mike "Burning Up In Your Love But Also Burning Your Ass on Twitter" Kanellis last year: There are follow-up comments to his response that say stupid things like the very first person: Remember folks, people work full-time in professional wrestling not to make ends meet, but for that all-time greatest thing...
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Post by eJm on May 18, 2018 8:14:03 GMT -5
He's not wrong but it also disturbs me the idea that the main reason to support WWE is because they pay the most for talent. That's not how I read his comment, I read it more as "stop giving the boys and girls shit for staying with the WWE despite them not being booked the way you think they should be booked." I mean, take for example Mike "Burning Up In Your Love But Also Burning Your Ass on Twitter" Kanellis last year: There are follow-up comments to his response that say stupid things like the very first person: Remember folks, people work full-time in professional wrestling not to make ends meet, but for that all-time greatest thing... Hey, you’re right about that and his point is true. It’s like what I said, if the only film production left came from Disney or Universal or whoever and someone was still being paid regardless, I’d be happy for them but then wonder what would happen if another company was around to give those people who are turning their wheels a chance at a different role.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 18, 2018 13:59:03 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not, say, Joe or any other single wrestler's responsibility to stay with a less lucrative deal just so that it helps build up a smaller company; even in the case of Kenny Omega, you can tell he's happy being a driving force behind growing NJPW as a brand, but he wouldn't likely be as eager if he wasn't being handsomely compensated, and he'd be entirely justified.
I'd just still rather not support such practices, since I still don't think WWE's in a place yet where they count as an overall positive for the industry. WWE allows a small number of wrestlers to make really good money, more than would have been available if we still lived in something resembling the territory era, but its presence and how it grew is a chief reason why there are fewer places for people to at least make a comfortable full time living in wrestling than ever before (e.g. not getting rich, but being able to focus on wrestling full time). I once read an article that likened it to what happened in Las Vegas over time, how the seedier Mafia-run strip made a bunch of people pretty good money, but the modern, "Disney-fied" strip is run by a much smaller number of people who make a ton more money for themselves than they could have in the old days.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on May 18, 2018 14:39:57 GMT -5
He sounds like a bit of an ass when he says it, but absolutely nothing he said is wrong. That's why I like him. I'm like that too sometimes.
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Post by benstudd on May 18, 2018 22:53:34 GMT -5
But if they raid everybody, who's going to develop the talent and make new stars. The Performance Center sure is not gonna do it.
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