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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Jun 27, 2018 9:58:33 GMT -5
100%. Honestly, the big one that people go at him for, I don't get. Like, I haven't hit the Reign of Terror in my watch yet, but hindsight tells me the following: RVD in 2002 would've inevitably f***ed up like he did in 2006. Steiner is, well, Steiner. Kane is Kane. Katie Vick was gross, but that was clearly a Vince thing. Booker's loss is inexcusable. Goldberg just was never going to fit in. Orton, we learned, was just not mature enough to handle being on top. Don't forget young, hot, up-and-comer Kevin Nash. Right, wasn't Quads getting ready to go film Punisher anyway? |
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Post by héad.casé on Jun 27, 2018 10:16:36 GMT -5
I like Trips. In 2000 he became my favourite wrestler because of how good he was. You can see how much all these NXT guys and gals mean to him. I don’t even think him winning the Rumble and Title two years ago was ego. I think it was him saying “I can get Roman over as a face. Let me do it” - when in reality the only one who was able to do that was Sheamus.
But anyway, H is the man.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 27, 2018 10:46:40 GMT -5
Replies to this very thread even prove that Triple H will never be forgiven by a lot of people, but I've no idea how reasonable they're being because he was the champ when I started watching wrestling so I'm probably biased too. Seeing some of the examples, it's like... this shit was years ago. I don't know when Triple H has enough in the tank for people to stop hating him for past shit, I really don't. I dislike him for current shit too. Like putting himself in main events when he has a roster of people he should be building up. Like hogging airtime with his wife. Like portraying himself as bigger and badder than his WWE champions Randy Orton and Seth Rollins and making them his bitches. He’s had his time and his time was great and deserved but if he's on TV he has to be the most important person and in his position of power it shouldn’t be that way. His presence all over TV at everyone’s expense in the 2000s was enough to drive away every wrestling fan I’ve known in real life. He himself seems like a nice guy, he’s talented and a lot of what he’s done is great but professionally his ego will always ruin my enjoyment. Not based on the past but on what I see on my TV. |
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schma
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Post by schma on Jun 27, 2018 13:36:45 GMT -5
Nah, that was just yet another attempt to put Roman over, and it would be revisionist history to not acknowledge that he was starting to get over naturally just before his injury in the fall of 2015. Hunter taking the belt at the point was merely his attempt to convince Vince that his "guy" was worth all the time and investment they were putting into him. Sure, it didn't pan out to anything in the long run, but remember they were trying desperately to make lightning strike twice after the 'Bryan vs The Authority' storyline. It worked for one, not so much for the other. Also worth noting that due to a rash of injuries and problems, there really wasn't anyone else around who they thought was on the level of a Mania main event title match with Roman. They were holding off on Brock presumably figuring he'd come back from his UFC match victorious and Roman would be put over even harder by the rub, Ambrose was there to keep Brock busy, and then like everyone the f*** else was just injured. 32 was a really not-good Wrestlemania and some of that came down to a weak roster and a struggle to get things into a place where it could matter. Triple H is seen by Vince himself as a major star deserving of that spot, he didn't really need to book himself into there, and the intention was to set up, like you said, Roman vs. The Authority with the same MITB cash-in on a title win starting point at Survivor Series. I've always seen 32 as a matter of messed up circumstances, changed plans, and bad booking more than Triple H gunning for a vanity run. While there were a lot of injuries that year, Ambrose and Reigns had progressed in such a way that people were really into the idea of them facing each other for the title. It had been set up so well that if HHH had kept out of it, their story would have made a great WM story. Also, keep in mind that Roman was cashed in on, won the title again, lost it in the Royal Rumble just to set up a match with HHH where he won the title again. There was no reason for the title to be on the line at Royal Rumble when HHH winning the Rumble would have had them in basically the same spot and wouldn't have artificially padded his title reigns numbers. Add to that, in the middle of HHH's run as the top champion he took out Dean Ambrose a month before the guy was supposed to face Brock. Yeah you could argue that it was all just bad booking but given that HHH had spent the past couple years constantly putting himself over his champions (Orton and Seth) and his history of egomania, I suspect that this completely unnecessary title run was a bit of the old HHH rearing its head one last time.
I mean, Triple H will always have a black mark on his record for Booker T at WM 19 and destroying Summer of Punk 2011. That said, he's still that dude to me. Oh yeah, I totally agree those are smudges on his record. But being massively reductionist - and at the risk of going all 'CM Punk did it' - Paul Heyman put a 17-year-old kid in the ring to get killed by New Jack, owes six-figure sums to some of his most loyal people, showed up on WWF television before ECW was closed... like the number of people in wrestling who have done much worse shit than burying someone's favourite wrestler, but Triple H still gets shit for it. I know Heyman does in some quarters, and most of these people do to some degree, but Triple H still has this insane reputation even now. I suspect with this it's partly that a lot of people don't realize just how sleazy Paul really was. I didn't know about a lot of this until just a few years ago. The other thing is that HHH was all over the biggest wrestling company during their biggest period and the years after. I will totally grant that there are a lot of horrible people in wrestling who deserve far more hate and vitriol than HHH but most of them never came close to leaving the mark on wrestling that he did. I think that's why people still get up in arms about stuff that happened years ago. Fact is, people left in droves while he was on top and a disproportionate number say it was because of him. Don't forget young, hot, up-and-comer Kevin Nash. Right, wasn't Quads getting ready to go film Punisher anyway? How long was he gone? I think he was only in one scene that lasted a few minutes. Maybe another 30 second scene as well.
Don't get me wrong, these days I love a lot of what HHH is doing offscreen. He seems to be much better at that side of things and I'm curious to see how it goes when he finally takes over. However, that doesn't mean we have to forget the damage he's done.
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Shark
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Post by Shark on Jun 27, 2018 16:03:39 GMT -5
Booking himself into the main event of Mania as the champion in 2016 proved his ego will always come first Nah, that was just yet another attempt to put Roman over, and it would be revisionist history to not acknowledge that he was starting to get over naturally just before his injury in the fall of 2015. Hunter taking the belt at the point was merely his attempt to convince Vince that his "guy" was worth all the time and investment they were putting into him. Sure, it didn't pan out to anything in the long run, but remember they were trying desperately to make lightning strike twice after the 'Bryan vs The Authority' storyline. It worked for one, not so much for the other. That was also the culmination of a 2 year long angle. Night after Mania 30, Roman spears Triple H kick starting the Shield vs Evolution feud. It's fairly clear Triple H vs Roman Reigns was going to happen at some point. The final match between the teams, Roman pins Triple H and ends the night with his foot on the Game's chest. It's Roman vs the Authority pretty much from there on out.Triple H vs. Roman Reigns was going to happen at some point, the fans turning on Reigns just wasn't predicted. So Hunter winning the title and then putting over Reigns was very likely always in the cards. Maybe not for sure, but it was a possibility. |
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Post by EoE: Workin On My Night Cheese on Jun 28, 2018 1:06:52 GMT -5
Nah, that was just yet another attempt to put Roman over, and it would be revisionist history to not acknowledge that he was starting to get over naturally just before his injury in the fall of 2015. Hunter taking the belt at the point was merely his attempt to convince Vince that his "guy" was worth all the time and investment they were putting into him. Sure, it didn't pan out to anything in the long run, but remember they were trying desperately to make lightning strike twice after the 'Bryan vs The Authority' storyline. It worked for one, not so much for the other. Also worth noting that due to a rash of injuries and problems, there really wasn't anyone else around who they thought was on the level of a Mania main event title match with Roman. They were holding off on Brock presumably figuring he'd come back from his UFC match victorious and Roman would be put over even harder by the rub, Ambrose was there to keep Brock busy, and then like everyone the f*** else was just injured. 32 was a really not-good Wrestlemania and some of that came down to a weak roster and a struggle to get things into a place where it could matter. Triple H is seen by Vince himself as a major star deserving of that spot, he didn't really need to book himself into there, and the intention was to set up, like you said, Roman vs. The Authority with the same MITB cash-in on a title win starting point at Survivor Series. I've always seen 32 as a matter of messed up circumstances, changed plans, and bad booking more than Triple H gunning for a vanity run. It’s hard to remember any other WrestleMania that was hobbled by so many injuries to so many top stars. Cena, Rollins and Orton all missed out, as well as some very capable midcard hands like Cesaro, Harper and Neville. And Sting probably would have been on this card had he not had his career-ending injury the year before. |
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jun 28, 2018 2:53:22 GMT -5
Replies to this very thread even prove that Triple H will never be forgiven by a lot of people, but I've no idea how reasonable they're being because he was the champ when I started watching wrestling so I'm probably biased too. Seeing some of the examples, it's like... this shit was years ago. I don't know when Triple H has enough in the tank for people to stop hating him for past shit, I really don't. Just because it was years ago doesn't unstupid it. What kind of logic is that? Triple H the person is cool, the buisnessman is cool, but the character from 2002 - 2016 was largely insufferable and went over many when he shouldn't have too many times to count. Nobody is saying he needs to go to trail for the Reign of Terror or anything, just that it was dumb, bad for buisness and was largely a result of someone thinking he was way better than he actually was. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 28, 2018 3:41:36 GMT -5
Replies to this very thread even prove that Triple H will never be forgiven by a lot of people, but I've no idea how reasonable they're being because he was the champ when I started watching wrestling so I'm probably biased too. Seeing some of the examples, it's like... this shit was years ago. I don't know when Triple H has enough in the tank for people to stop hating him for past shit, I really don't. Just because it was years ago doesn't unstupid it. What kind of logic is that? Triple H the person is cool, the buisnessman is cool, but the character from 2002 - 2016 was largely insufferable and went over many when he shouldn't have too many times to count. Nobody is saying he needs to go to trail for the Reign of Terror or anything, just that it was dumb, bad for buisness and was largely a result of someone thinking he was way better than he actually was. That isn't really what I meant - although a lot of people, albeit fewer on here, definitely do think he should be punished somehow for the Reign of Terror. I'm not saying stop criticising his often awful decision making, it was that Trips these past few years has been doing a whole load of things that seem to make it obvious he is trying to do what the fans want, signing their guys and putting them over when he can. Trips is a much more altruistic executive than he is a worker, but his reputation doesn't seem to improve for a lot of people. Hasn't he at least broken even yet, you know? |
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 28, 2018 3:47:34 GMT -5
He still believes in a lot of the same shit Vince believes in, and that will be a problem in the future if he doesn't change his views, such as those on 50/50 booking, and his stupid "if you haven't booked a successful promotion, then you don't know anything' mindset.
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Jun 28, 2018 4:18:52 GMT -5
Also worth noting that due to a rash of injuries and problems, there really wasn't anyone else around who they thought was on the level of a Mania main event title match with Roman. They were holding off on Brock presumably figuring he'd come back from his UFC match victorious and Roman would be put over even harder by the rub, Ambrose was there to keep Brock busy, and then like everyone the f*** else was just injured. 32 was a really not-good Wrestlemania and some of that came down to a weak roster and a struggle to get things into a place where it could matter. Triple H is seen by Vince himself as a major star deserving of that spot, he didn't really need to book himself into there, and the intention was to set up, like you said, Roman vs. The Authority with the same MITB cash-in on a title win starting point at Survivor Series. I've always seen 32 as a matter of messed up circumstances, changed plans, and bad booking more than Triple H gunning for a vanity run. It’s hard to remember any other WrestleMania that was hobbled by so many injuries to so many top stars. Cena, Rollins and Orton all missed out, as well as some very capable midcard hands like Cesaro, Harper and Neville. And Sting probably would have been on this card had he not had his career-ending injury the year before. And one other thing people forget now is the fact that Shane McMahon legit saved that Wrestlemania. Yeah, the match wasn’t great, but they needed a draw and his returning to fight Taker in the Cell was exactly that draw. They desperately needed to make sure they filled that building, and they pulled it off. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 4:58:11 GMT -5
It’s hard to remember any other WrestleMania that was hobbled by so many injuries to so many top stars. Cena, Rollins and Orton all missed out, as well as some very capable midcard hands like Cesaro, Harper and Neville. And Sting probably would have been on this card had he not had his career-ending injury the year before. And one other thing people forget now is the fact that Shane McMahon legit saved that Wrestlemania. Yeah, the match wasn’t great, but they needed a draw and his returning to fight Taker in the Cell was exactly that draw. They desperately needed to make sure they filled that building, and they pulled it off. You know those things that make you sad because they're true? I very nearly didn't watch the PPV because of Shane and his awful punches returning, but just resorted to skipping the match. The fact your statement can be made factually is upsetting to me. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 28, 2018 5:50:42 GMT -5
Also worth noting that due to a rash of injuries and problems, there really wasn't anyone else around who they thought was on the level of a Mania main event title match with Roman. They were holding off on Brock presumably figuring he'd come back from his UFC match victorious and Roman would be put over even harder by the rub, Ambrose was there to keep Brock busy, and then like everyone the f*** else was just injured. 32 was a really not-good Wrestlemania and some of that came down to a weak roster and a struggle to get things into a place where it could matter. Triple H is seen by Vince himself as a major star deserving of that spot, he didn't really need to book himself into there, and the intention was to set up, like you said, Roman vs. The Authority with the same MITB cash-in on a title win starting point at Survivor Series. I've always seen 32 as a matter of messed up circumstances, changed plans, and bad booking more than Triple H gunning for a vanity run. While there were a lot of injuries that year, Ambrose and Reigns had progressed in such a way that people were really into the idea of them facing each other for the title. It had been set up so well that if HHH had kept out of it, their story would have made a great WM story. Also, keep in mind that Roman was cashed in on, won the title again, lost it in the Royal Rumble just to set up a match with HHH where he won the title again. There was no reason for the title to be on the line at Royal Rumble when HHH winning the Rumble would have had them in basically the same spot and wouldn't have artificially padded his title reigns numbers. Add to that, in the middle of HHH's run as the top champion he took out Dean Ambrose a month before the guy was supposed to face Brock. Yeah you could argue that it was all just bad booking but given that HHH had spent the past couple years constantly putting himself over his champions (Orton and Seth) and his history of egomania, I suspect that this completely unnecessary title run was a bit of the old HHH rearing its head one last time. But Roman/Dean also would have been a face vs. face program, and WWE didn't want that on their biggest stage. They definitely wanted Roman to be the conquering hero, and definitely wanted to have "Roman triumphs over the authority" to be the story they went with. Sure, his and Dean's friendship might have been something the fans wanted, but nothing about WWE's handling of Roman has really been built around the finger points of "the option that seems more like what the fans want". Especially with the idea that they wanted Roman to get cheered, which they believed could happen against an evil enough heel, but was a massive uphill fight against the more popular face Dean. They wanted a chase, wanted a big bad heel at the top for Roman to win the title from, and the only person on that level who the company felt could be slotted into that position was Triple H. There was a reason why the Rumble had the title on the line: a thin roster. the extra twist to try and spike some attention, and have the authority screw Roman in a way that could fuel a rematch. With WWE, bad booking is something that you more than just "could argue", but in this very, very rare situation, I can actually understand each story beat in this feud and why it happened for a f***ing change. It flowed logically and with the very singular intent of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. They couldn't even make the Roman/Brock feud this year follow that sensible an arc, so the idea it was just some quickly slapped together Triple H vanity run that had nothing to do with circumstances or what the company wanted for him is just going in way too hard on a guy you don't like simply because you don't like him. Especially since Triple H hasn't been constantly "putting himself over his champions". In recent years he has been doing everything he can to work with and put over people he's been signing and using his star power to build the future up. Put over Seth, put over the Shield in general, put over Roman, put over Ronda... Dude even ate a loss at Mania 30 to a dude he'd spent eight months calling a not-good-enough loser. Like, nobody as obsessed with their image and that protective of the idea they're the baddest dude in the room is going to let someone they've been running down forever beat them clean and get one over on them later in the night to boot. |
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Post by The Barber on Jun 28, 2018 6:23:16 GMT -5
I don't trust him.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 28, 2018 10:56:25 GMT -5
He still believes in a lot of the same shit Vince believes in, and that will be a problem in the future if he doesn't change his views, such as those on 50/50 booking, and his stupid "if you haven't booked a successful promotion, then you don't know anything' mindset. How much of that is parroting the old man because it's not a fight he can win right now? The only thing he has total control over is NXT, and there's little to no issues with how it's run or booked. |
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jun 28, 2018 11:13:56 GMT -5
He still believes in a lot of the same shit Vince believes in, and that will be a problem in the future if he doesn't change his views, such as those on 50/50 booking, and his stupid "if you haven't booked a successful promotion, then you don't know anything' mindset. How much of that is parroting the old man because it's not a fight he can win right now? The only thing he has total control over is NXT, and there's little to no issues with how it's run or booked. I think there's something to that theory. It's a matter of picking your battles |
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Jun 28, 2018 11:50:42 GMT -5
What's he gonna do? Kidnap and marry your daughter? Oh... |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 28, 2018 13:23:56 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I totally agree those are smudges on his record. But being massively reductionist - and at the risk of going all 'CM Punk did it' - Paul Heyman put a 17-year-old kid in the ring to get killed by New Jack, owes six-figure sums to some of his most loyal people, showed up on WWF television before ECW was closed... like the number of people in wrestling who have done much worse shit than burying someone's favourite wrestler, but Triple H still gets shit for it. I know Heyman does in some quarters, and most of these people do to some degree, but Triple H still has this insane reputation even now. 100%. Honestly, the big one that people go at him for, I don't get. Like, I haven't hit the Reign of Terror in my watch yet, but hindsight tells me the following: RVD in 2002 would've inevitably f***ed up like he did in 2006. Steiner is, well, Steiner. Kane is Kane. Katie Vick was gross, but that was clearly a Vince thing. Booker's loss is inexcusable. Goldberg just was never going to fit in. Orton, we learned, was just not mature enough to handle being on top. Said it before, but the reign of terror was necessary to establish the brand new championship on Raw. When he held it, it was the most important title in the company. Compared to the way the Universal title has been so far - a mockery at best. |
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schma
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Post by schma on Jun 28, 2018 13:59:43 GMT -5
While there were a lot of injuries that year, Ambrose and Reigns had progressed in such a way that people were really into the idea of them facing each other for the title. It had been set up so well that if HHH had kept out of it, their story would have made a great WM story. Also, keep in mind that Roman was cashed in on, won the title again, lost it in the Royal Rumble just to set up a match with HHH where he won the title again. There was no reason for the title to be on the line at Royal Rumble when HHH winning the Rumble would have had them in basically the same spot and wouldn't have artificially padded his title reigns numbers. Add to that, in the middle of HHH's run as the top champion he took out Dean Ambrose a month before the guy was supposed to face Brock. Yeah you could argue that it was all just bad booking but given that HHH had spent the past couple years constantly putting himself over his champions (Orton and Seth) and his history of egomania, I suspect that this completely unnecessary title run was a bit of the old HHH rearing its head one last time. But Roman/Dean also would have been a face vs. face program, and WWE didn't want that on their biggest stage. They definitely wanted Roman to be the conquering hero, and definitely wanted to have "Roman triumphs over the authority" to be the story they went with. Sure, his and Dean's friendship might have been something the fans wanted, but nothing about WWE's handling of Roman has really been built around the finger points of "the option that seems more like what the fans want". Especially with the idea that they wanted Roman to get cheered, which they believed could happen against an evil enough heel, but was a massive uphill fight against the more popular face Dean. They wanted a chase, wanted a big bad heel at the top for Roman to win the title from, and the only person on that level who the company felt could be slotted into that position was Triple H. There was a reason why the Rumble had the title on the line: a thin roster. the extra twist to try and spike some attention, and have the authority screw Roman in a way that could fuel a rematch. With WWE, bad booking is something that you more than just "could argue", but in this very, very rare situation, I can actually understand each story beat in this feud and why it happened for a f***ing change. It flowed logically and with the very singular intent of trying to catch lightning in a bottle. They couldn't even make the Roman/Brock feud this year follow that sensible an arc, so the idea it was just some quickly slapped together Triple H vanity run that had nothing to do with circumstances or what the company wanted for him is just going in way too hard on a guy you don't like simply because you don't like him. Especially since Triple H hasn't been constantly "putting himself over his champions". In recent years he has been doing everything he can to work with and put over people he's been signing and using his star power to build the future up. Put over Seth, put over the Shield in general, put over Roman, put over Ronda... Dude even ate a loss at Mania 30 to a dude he'd spent eight months calling a not-good-enough loser. Like, nobody as obsessed with their image and that protective of the idea they're the baddest dude in the room is going to let someone they've been running down forever beat them clean and get one over on them later in the night to boot. I can see what you're saying, at the same time Dean and Roman didn't have the typical dynamic of face vs face. Their interactions had always been we're brothers and we have each other's back but if we're opposing each other in a match we will go to war like we're worst enemies. They would destroy each other and then get beers afterwards. However, if they didn't want face vs face, they could have built up the League of Nations to be something other than a joke considering half the group were former world champions. They love Sheamus and while I wouldn't have been thrilled with him main eventing it could still be done.
Alternately, Triple H didn't need the belt. Hell all he had to do was make Roman suffer, prevent him from getting the belt back from Sheamus a few times. Maybe Roman squeaks out a title win just before WM and HHH declares that Roman will not walk out of WM with the belt and does every dirty underhanded trick to make it happen. You could still have the story without a needless Rumble and Title win.
As for putting people over, he's done a great job with some and an abysmal job with others. As I mentioned he did go over Ambrose a month before the guy was supposed to face Lesnar. Way to build that up. With the authority he was constantly undermining Orton, then he was undermining Seth. When Seth finally grew a backbone and tried to go after HHH, the dude ghosted him. Just shrugged him off for months (because it wasn't mania season) while Seth looked like a total idiot for not being able to track down his boss. Seth has finally recovered from that but it hurt him for a long time.
I will grant that he put the SHIELD over (though nearly everyone did) and he put Ronda over. I recognize this isn't Reign of Terror "am I f***king going over?" HHH but he's certainly made missteps in recent years. I think Sting should have won their match but I can understand why he didn't. Him with a belt and rumble win in 2016 and going over one of the hottest stars in the company though? I skipped WM because of that.
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Shark
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Post by Shark on Jun 28, 2018 14:30:19 GMT -5
How much of that is parroting the old man because it's not a fight he can win right now? The only thing he has total control over is NXT, and there's little to no issues with how it's run or booked. I think there's something to that theory. It's a matter of picking your battles Hunter isn't a stupid man, he knows that when it comes to Vince, you have to handle some things with kid gloves. |
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 28, 2018 14:34:46 GMT -5
It’s hard to remember any other WrestleMania that was hobbled by so many injuries to so many top stars. Cena, Rollins and Orton all missed out, as well as some very capable midcard hands like Cesaro, Harper and Neville. And Sting probably would have been on this card had he not had his career-ending injury the year before. And one other thing people forget now is the fact that Shane McMahon legit saved that Wrestlemania. Yeah, the match wasn’t great, but they needed a draw and his returning to fight Taker in the Cell was exactly that draw. They desperately needed to make sure they filled that building, and they pulled it off. The funny thing about this is that a lot of the wrestling fans I’ve known that have been driven away by HHH watched 32 purely because they knew Shane was back. He’s weirdly a draw. There was a lot of disgust when they saw that HHH was still in main events mind you... |
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