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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jun 28, 2018 14:13:12 GMT -5
I was fine with it personally because it's still within kayfabe that they use stage names sometimes. One of Punk's best strengths I feel was these worked shoots that just barely fall in the lines of kayfabe and can be explained within the in-universe narrative still. There's this sweetspot where he and Heyman (usually) knew where to fall into, as opposed to say late WCW that couldn't figure it out. Pig? Why is it that YOU can understand this but nobody else can? If he'd said phil brooks talking to steve lombardi, how does that break Brooklyn brawlers kayfabe? Yet look at that huge amount of votes where people groan. Did they also groan when piper said "that's not saba simba, that's tony atlas" or when marc mero said "you're not sal sincere, you're tom brandy"? It annoys me that they'd miss the double context of this entirely and groan like this is roman saying cenas burying guys. Cause other people do pick up on it and still think it's stupid. as stated CM Punk is obviously a stage name and ahs been treated like one multiple times. Hunter Hearst Helmsley is not and has never been treated like a stage name. TRIPLE H has. But people even those in blood feuds that want to kill him called him Hunter. So that line doesn't fit in Kayfabe because again you are telling me someone like Austin who was trying to f***ing murder HHH just went along with the goofy stage name? Had he left it as This is Phil Brooks talking to you... then maybe it wouldn't have been as bad because again it's clear his name isn't CM Punk. But even that still has a twinge of "this is real" "Everything before and after this is fake" vibe to it that I don't particularly like. |
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 28, 2018 14:30:59 GMT -5
I was fine with it personally because it's still within kayfabe that they use stage names sometimes. One of Punk's best strengths I feel was these worked shoots that just barely fall in the lines of kayfabe and can be explained within the in-universe narrative still. There's this sweetspot where he and Heyman (usually) knew where to fall into, as opposed to say late WCW that couldn't figure it out. Pig? Why is it that YOU can understand this but nobody else can? If he'd said phil brooks talking to steve lombardi, how does that break Brooklyn brawlers kayfabe? Yet look at that huge amount of votes where people groan. Did they also groan when piper said "that's not saba simba, that's tony atlas" or when marc mero said "you're not sal sincere, you're tom brandy"? It annoys me that they'd miss the double context of this entirely and groan like this is roman saying cenas burying guys. Just because people don’t like it doesn’t mean they don’t understand it |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jun 28, 2018 17:01:01 GMT -5
It would have been better had he called him Tri. I always wanted someone, figured Jericho would've been all over this, to start calling him "Hearst". No-one ever uses the middle name. I'm now also trying to work out the funniest sounding versions of this. "This is Michael Shawn Hickenbottom talking to Lawrence Wendell Pfohl!" We'll be waiting...AT THE ALAMO! |
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Jun 28, 2018 17:45:19 GMT -5
Pig? Why is it that YOU can understand this but nobody else can? If he'd said phil brooks talking to steve lombardi, how does that break Brooklyn brawlers kayfabe? Yet look at that huge amount of votes where people groan. Did they also groan when piper said "that's not saba simba, that's tony atlas" or when marc mero said "you're not sal sincere, you're tom brandy"? It annoys me that they'd miss the double context of this entirely and groan like this is roman saying cenas burying guys. Cause other people do pick up on it and still think it's stupid. as stated CM Punk is obviously a stage name and ahs been treated like one multiple times. Hunter Hearst Helmsley is not and has never been treated like a stage name. TRIPLE H has. But people even those in blood feuds that want to kill him called him Hunter. So that line doesn't fit in Kayfabe because again you are telling me someone like Austin who was trying to f***ing murder HHH just went along with the goofy stage name? Had he left it as This is Phil Brooks talking to you... then maybe it wouldn't have been as bad because again it's clear his name isn't CM Punk. But even that still has a twinge of "this is real" "Everything before and after this is fake" vibe to it that I don't particularly like. So.....what about in the examples I used? They were ok because they'd wrestled in the WWE under their own name before? Now I want to double check about Diesel being referred to as Kevin Nash in the WWE. I know backlund did it. I've said it before, but are you telling me the act of referring to a wrestler by their birth name breaks kayfabe? That we're supposed to believe Hunter is his birth name? Austin never called him paul even though he was in a blood feud, that's ok. He knows him only as Hunter. What's wrong with that? Punk came at a time when HHH was openly known as an executive of the WWE. Him doing his homework on HHH doesn't break kayfabe. Look at Hulk Hogan. In his return mid mid 2000s he was referred to as terry now and again. Despite the fact that savage never called him that, even he thought Hogan was trying to take his wife. Now the character of the Undertaker, a supernatural character is different. But he was already de mystified and given a dad and mom, are we supposed to say he has no first name, that he was born as the Undertaker? Once you give him that backstory he's fair game. Because the act of stage name/nicknames and real name is traded with practically every single wrestler these days, it doesn't to me break kayfabe. You know what would have broken kayfabe? If punk had said "this is a work". He could have said "hunters not your real name" - still in kayfabe. The act of exposure is still a kayfabe tool. The way this was done was for shock value yes, but absoloutely i don't believe this was done to put across "this is real, everthing else before is fake" Punks whole character is to annoy and wind people up. I would never expect Austin to say "this isn't stone cold, this is steven talking to Paul" Did you forget, Hunter himself does away with every single nick name in that segment? "Not the game, not the cerebral assassin, just a man you insulted" Punk strips away the final essence he tries to hold on to. Drop it all then, he might as well be saying. His whole character was to react like that. Maybe you understood that all that and still didn't like it. Thats fine, it uustbfelt like people were saying , this is like Tony schivonae saying "goldbergs not following the script!!" |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 28, 2018 17:47:35 GMT -5
It was stupid but NWA in 1988 did it first last night I watched the show the night before the 1st clash of champions and Dusty Rhodes went nuts with a baseball bat as one does attacking Tully,JJ and accidentally Jim Crockett so for the rest of the show all the heels did promos trying to get Dusty fired and Gary Hart said “That Virgil Reynolds has mental issues and should be terminated” now he got Dusty’s last name wrong so I guess that’s only a partial shoot. In 1974, Dusty Rhodes was a heel teaming with Pak Song and both were managed by Gary Hart. Song and Hart turned on Dusty after a match, and the babyface American Dream was born. Starting there and moving forward through time, Hart would always find a way to refer to Dusty as "Virgil" off and on in his promos, from the mid-70s through the early 90s. There was purpose, context and history built into this apparent kayfabe-breaking. Hart saw Dusty as a fake and "knew" the real Dusty. He did the "Virgil" thing throughout the years with the express purpose of making it seem his old running buddy wasn't what he claimed and not someone to be trusted; and also to remind Dusty that he knew Dusty better than most, all of his secrets, etc. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jun 28, 2018 17:59:06 GMT -5
Cause other people do pick up on it and still think it's stupid. as stated CM Punk is obviously a stage name and ahs been treated like one multiple times. Hunter Hearst Helmsley is not and has never been treated like a stage name. TRIPLE H has. But people even those in blood feuds that want to kill him called him Hunter. So that line doesn't fit in Kayfabe because again you are telling me someone like Austin who was trying to f***ing murder HHH just went along with the goofy stage name? Had he left it as This is Phil Brooks talking to you... then maybe it wouldn't have been as bad because again it's clear his name isn't CM Punk. But even that still has a twinge of "this is real" "Everything before and after this is fake" vibe to it that I don't particularly like. So.....what about in the examples I used? They were ok because they'd wrestled in the WWE under their own name before? Now I want to double check about Diesel being referred to as Kevin Nash in the WWE. I know backlund did it. I've said it before, but are you telling me the act of referring to a wrestler by their birth name breaks kayfabe? That we're supposed to believe Hunter is his birth name? Why not? Hunter is a real name. He's never been officially connected to Jean-Paul Levesque or Terra Ryzing in Kayfabe. Saying this wasn't CM Punk talking to Hunter Hearst Helmsley... is literally saying... "This isn't in character... this is the man talking to the man... unlike all that other shit." Yeah, you know what he didn't say... this isn't Triple H talking to you... he didn't drop Hunter Hearst Helmsley there... him dropping nicknames is different than dropping his ACTUAL name, and Just like how you said him calling him Paul Levesque was done for shock value... so was the Goldberg not following the script. It was to have shock value by trying to pitch it as REAL, not any of that other fake shit. It is almost exactly the same as they are admitting to playing characters. |
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Jun 28, 2018 18:02:05 GMT -5
It would have been better had he called him Tri. I always wanted someone, figured Jericho would've been all over this, to start calling him "Hearst". No-one ever uses the middle name. I'm now also trying to work out the funniest sounding versions of this. "This is Michael Shawn Hickenbottom talking to Lawrence Wendell Pfohl!" "Your last name is Hickenbottom?!" |
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Squirrel Master
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Post by Squirrel Master on Jun 28, 2018 18:59:05 GMT -5
I swear, the first time I heard Road Dogg (or whatever the f*** he was called when he was in TNA) pronounce it that way, I just knew he pronounced it wrong. To this day, it still doesn't sound right. You didn't hear of the great Jean-Paul Levesque from WCW?!  Off topic, Recently I was zipping thru an old homemade VHS tape when I had to pause and take a second look at two very nondescript guys I could not recognize having a long boring match. Yep, it was our boy H against The Maestro. |
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jun 28, 2018 20:16:14 GMT -5
So.....what about in the examples I used? They were ok because they'd wrestled in the WWE under their own name before? Now I want to double check about Diesel being referred to as Kevin Nash in the WWE. I know backlund did it. I've said it before, but are you telling me the act of referring to a wrestler by their birth name breaks kayfabe? That we're supposed to believe Hunter is his birth name? Why not? Hunter is a real name. He's never been officially connected to Jean-Paul Levesque or Terra Ryzing in Kayfabe. It technically has, courtesy of William Regal: "Let me give you people a little history lesson. Eleven years ago, me and you were a tag team in WCW." |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 23:37:45 GMT -5
It was stupid but NWA in 1988 did it first last night I watched the show the night before the 1st clash of champions and Dusty Rhodes went nuts with a baseball bat as one does attacking Tully,JJ and accidentally Jim Crockett so for the rest of the show all the heels did promos trying to get Dusty fired and Gary Hart said “That Virgil Reynolds has mental issues and should be terminated” now he got Dusty’s last name wrong so I guess that’s only a partial shoot. In 1974, Dusty Rhodes was a heel teaming with Pak Song and both were managed by Gary Hart. Song and Hart turned on Dusty after a match, and the babyface American Dream was born. Starting there and moving forward through time, Hart would always find a way to refer to Dusty as "Virgil" off and on in his promos, from the mid-70s through the early 90s. There was purpose, context and history built into this apparent kayfabe-breaking. Hart saw Dusty as a fake and "knew" the real Dusty. He did the "Virgil" thing throughout the years with the express purpose of making it seem his old running buddy wasn't what he claimed and not someone to be trusted; and also to remind Dusty that he knew Dusty better than most, all of his secrets, etc. Thanks for that info I didn’t realize he did that for so long cause on the nwa shows I’m currently watching while he’s talked a lot of crap about Dusty this was the first time he used his government name so it seemed odd and the crowd didn’t react at all.Hart at this time was busy lusting over how sexy he thought Al Perez was in his promos so this promo was a departure from that. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 29, 2018 3:04:08 GMT -5
Cause other people do pick up on it and still think it's stupid. as stated CM Punk is obviously a stage name and ahs been treated like one multiple times. Hunter Hearst Helmsley is not and has never been treated like a stage name. TRIPLE H has. But people even those in blood feuds that want to kill him called him Hunter. So that line doesn't fit in Kayfabe because again you are telling me someone like Austin who was trying to f***ing murder HHH just went along with the goofy stage name? Had he left it as This is Phil Brooks talking to you... then maybe it wouldn't have been as bad because again it's clear his name isn't CM Punk. But even that still has a twinge of "this is real" "Everything before and after this is fake" vibe to it that I don't particularly like. So.....what about in the examples I used? They were ok because they'd wrestled in the WWE under their own name before? Now I want to double check about Diesel being referred to as Kevin Nash in the WWE. I know backlund did it. I've said it before, but are you telling me the act of referring to a wrestler by their birth name breaks kayfabe? That we're supposed to believe Hunter is his birth name? Austin never called him paul even though he was in a blood feud, that's ok. He knows him only as Hunter. What's wrong with that? Punk came at a time when HHH was openly known as an executive of the WWE. Him doing his homework on HHH doesn't break kayfabe. Look at Hulk Hogan. In his return mid mid 2000s he was referred to as terry now and again. Despite the fact that savage never called him that, even he thought Hogan was trying to take his wife. Now the character of the Undertaker, a supernatural character is different. But he was already de mystified and given a dad and mom, are we supposed to say he has no first name, that he was born as the Undertaker? Once you give him that backstory he's fair game. Because the act of stage name/nicknames and real name is traded with practically every single wrestler these days, it doesn't to me break kayfabe. You know what would have broken kayfabe? If punk had said "this is a work". He could have said "hunters not your real name" - still in kayfabe. The act of exposure is still a kayfabe tool. The way this was done was for shock value yes, but absoloutely i don't believe this was done to put across "this is real, everthing else before is fake" Punks whole character is to annoy and wind people up. I would never expect Austin to say "this isn't stone cold, this is steven talking to Paul" Did you forget, Hunter himself does away with every single nick name in that segment? "Not the game, not the cerebral assassin, just a man you insulted" Punk strips away the final essence he tries to hold on to. Drop it all then, he might as well be saying. His whole character was to react like that. Maybe you understood that all that and still didn't like it. Thats fine, it uustbfelt like people were saying , this is like Tony schivonae saying "goldbergs not following the script!!" Just for reference, the Tony Atlas and Tom Brandi ones were dumb at the time too, as was Chaz "I'm not Beaver Cleavage, I'm just a kid who wants to have fun" and Dustin Runnels Seven debut "I can't believe they put me in this shit". There's a reason none of those angles led to anything successful, they were dumb at the time and dumb now in the same way this quote was. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 29, 2018 7:38:16 GMT -5
Just for reference, the Tony Atlas and Tom Brandi ones were dumb at the time too, as was Chaz "I'm not Beaver Cleavage, I'm just a kid who wants to have fun" and Dustin Runnels Seven debut "I can't believe they put me in this shit". There's a reason none of those angles led to anything successful, they were dumb at the time and dumb now in the same way this quote was. This is exactly it. Wrestling fans, broadly, don't want to know this shit is all fake. It's closer to pantomime, where the fourth wall is broken sometimes but everybody is in on it, including the fans. The Seven/Beaver Cleavage stuff is stupid, because it says 'I am done doing these shitty storylines.' Punk's pipe bomb is so perfect because he criticised a lack of opportunity - that makes sense in shoot or work. He criticised Vince and the executives - that makes sense in shoot or work. 'I don't like the character they've given me' doesn't make sense in a work. |
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Jun 29, 2018 9:11:21 GMT -5
Just for reference, the Tony Atlas and Tom Brandi ones were dumb at the time too, as was Chaz "I'm not Beaver Cleavage, I'm just a kid who wants to have fun" and Dustin Runnels Seven debut "I can't believe they put me in this shit". There's a reason none of those angles led to anything successful, they were dumb at the time and dumb now in the same way this quote was. This is exactly it. Wrestling fans, broadly, don't want to know this shit is all fake. It's closer to pantomime, where the fourth wall is broken sometimes but everybody is in on it, including the fans. The Seven/Beaver Cleavage stuff is stupid, because it says 'I am done doing these shitty storylines.' Punk's pipe bomb is so perfect because he criticised a lack of opportunity - that makes sense in shoot or work. He criticised Vince and the executives - that makes sense in shoot or work. 'I don't like the character they've given me' doesn't make sense in a work. Vince said he created the character of hulk.hogan and he could have had anyone play that part, during a promo on hogan for the wm match. I hear what everyones saying, I'm just pointing out they have worked this into kayfabe before, and I think punks line still worked in kayfabe. You just have to squint a little. Let's not forget there were a lot of people who felt this way about punks original pipebomb promo. Now I'm gobna gp search for that thread |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 29, 2018 9:14:45 GMT -5
This is exactly it. Wrestling fans, broadly, don't want to know this shit is all fake. It's closer to pantomime, where the fourth wall is broken sometimes but everybody is in on it, including the fans. The Seven/Beaver Cleavage stuff is stupid, because it says 'I am done doing these shitty storylines.' Punk's pipe bomb is so perfect because he criticised a lack of opportunity - that makes sense in shoot or work. He criticised Vince and the executives - that makes sense in shoot or work. 'I don't like the character they've given me' doesn't make sense in a work. Vince said he created the character of hulk.hogan and he could have had anyone play that part, during a promo on hogan for the wm match. I hear what everyones saying, I'm just pointing out they have worked this into kayfabe before, and I think punks line still worked in kayfabe. You just have to squint a little. Let's not forget there were a lot of people who felt this way about punks original pipebomb promo. Now I'm gobna gp search for that thread I may have written my reply as being too absolute then, because I just flat-out don't agree with you about this line or about the Hulk Hogan line either. Even the line about Hogan, Vince could have said in a way that worked both ways for me - 'I'm the one who named you' or something. You can be someone who helped a guy build his stage persona without that being fourth wall-breaking, for me. |
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Jun 29, 2018 11:57:05 GMT -5
Vince said he created the character of hulk.hogan and he could have had anyone play that part, during a promo on hogan for the wm match. I hear what everyones saying, I'm just pointing out they have worked this into kayfabe before, and I think punks line still worked in kayfabe. You just have to squint a little. Let's not forget there were a lot of people who felt this way about punks original pipebomb promo. Now I'm gobna gp search for that thread I may have written my reply as being too absolute then, because I just flat-out don't agree with you about this line or about the Hulk Hogan line either. Even the line about Hogan, Vince could have said in a way that worked both ways for me - 'I'm the one who named you' or something. You can be someone who helped a guy build his stage persona without that being fourth wall-breaking, for me. He literally says 'i could have had anyone play the part of hulk hogan', well if it's only a part the man plays, why didn't earthquake or savage or anyone else refer to the real man behind the part, like Vince is doing? Yet when punk says ok hhh, you want to put aside all nicknames, then put aside HHH also, suddenly that's too far? Mentioning his real name he wrestled for under WCW, which is part of the WWE canon now, "breaks" kayfabe? I think we'll have to agree to disagree there as Punk referred to john cenas body.building career before the wwe which i don't think had been done before also. Really though I thought the earlier comments by hhh crossed that line. Some one else explains it better than me bleacherreport.com/articles/847614-cm-punk-and-triple-h-said-what-on-raw-last-night-a-guide-for-casual-wwe-fansThe whole "what's going on frank" the whole promo was designed to walk that thin line and I personally do not think that the line by punk broke kayfabe. That same beaver cleavage one you mentioned above? That for me also doesn't break kayfabe. Hogan Jarret batb vince russo promo? That breaks kayfabe. That deserves all the hate. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 29, 2018 12:40:33 GMT -5
I may have written my reply as being too absolute then, because I just flat-out don't agree with you about this line or about the Hulk Hogan line either. Even the line about Hogan, Vince could have said in a way that worked both ways for me - 'I'm the one who named you' or something. You can be someone who helped a guy build his stage persona without that being fourth wall-breaking, for me. He literally says 'i could have had anyone play the part of hulk hogan', well if it's only a part the man plays, why didn't earthquake or savage or anyone else refer to the real man behind the part, like Vince is doing? Yet when punk says ok hhh, you want to put aside all nicknames, then put aside HHH also, suddenly that's too far? Mentioning his real name he wrestled for under WCW, which is part of the WWE canon now, "breaks" kayfabe? I think we'll have to agree to disagree there as Punk referred to john cenas body.building career before the wwe which i don't think had been done before also. Really though I thought the earlier comments by hhh crossed that line. Some one else explains it better than me bleacherreport.com/articles/847614-cm-punk-and-triple-h-said-what-on-raw-last-night-a-guide-for-casual-wwe-fansThe whole "what's going on frank" the whole promo was designed to walk that thin line and I personally do not think that the line by punk broke kayfabe. That same beaver cleavage one you mentioned above? That for me also doesn't break kayfabe. Hogan Jarret batb vince russo promo? That breaks kayfabe. That deserves all the hate. I totally see where you are coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree and respect the suggestion immensely. Talking about different viewpoints on this idiot sweaty soap opera we all share is why I love this place. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 29, 2018 13:43:03 GMT -5
This is Bret Sargent Hart talking to Owen James Hart...
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Jun 29, 2018 15:28:47 GMT -5
He literally says 'i could have had anyone play the part of hulk hogan', well if it's only a part the man plays, why didn't earthquake or savage or anyone else refer to the real man behind the part, like Vince is doing? Yet when punk says ok hhh, you want to put aside all nicknames, then put aside HHH also, suddenly that's too far? Mentioning his real name he wrestled for under WCW, which is part of the WWE canon now, "breaks" kayfabe? I think we'll have to agree to disagree there as Punk referred to john cenas body.building career before the wwe which i don't think had been done before also. Really though I thought the earlier comments by hhh crossed that line. Some one else explains it better than me bleacherreport.com/articles/847614-cm-punk-and-triple-h-said-what-on-raw-last-night-a-guide-for-casual-wwe-fansThe whole "what's going on frank" the whole promo was designed to walk that thin line and I personally do not think that the line by punk broke kayfabe. That same beaver cleavage one you mentioned above? That for me also doesn't break kayfabe. Hogan Jarret batb vince russo promo? That breaks kayfabe. That deserves all the hate. I totally see where you are coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree and respect the suggestion immensely. Talking about different viewpoints on this idiot sweaty soap opera we all share is why I love this place. You're one of the good ones. Why don't we celebrate with liver and onions? youtu.be/XdFd2KmJn-A |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 29, 2018 15:29:40 GMT -5
I totally see where you are coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree and respect the suggestion immensely. Talking about different viewpoints on this idiot sweaty soap opera we all share is why I love this place. You're one of the good ones. Why don't we celebrate with liver and onions? youtu.be/XdFd2KmJn-ABest post. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 21:57:03 GMT -5
I totally see where you are coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree and respect the suggestion immensely. Talking about different viewpoints on this idiot sweaty soap opera we all share is why I love this place. You're one of the good ones. Why don't we celebrate with liver and onions? youtu.be/XdFd2KmJn-ATBH, I was creeped out by the video lol. |
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