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Post by willywonka666 on Jul 23, 2018 6:12:55 GMT -5
I watched this last night, and while I was a casual fan of ECW, since I didn't get it in my area much, I'm a bit confused.
Naturally, since Vince was involved.
I appreciate how frank everyone was allowed to be though.
Anyway, why, and Vince said it felt right at the time, would Vince want to see someone succeed and at their most important point, offer big contracts to their most important names? If he hadn't taken them, MAYBE they would have gone on and not be a main threat to Vince ever, but they could have co existed.
I guess it was about acquiring their name and library really huh?
Thoughts?
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 23, 2018 7:31:28 GMT -5
Well, it's really only good business to sign away talent if you have some idea what to do with them. In this case I'd say it was 50/50. The Dudleys were absolutely right to go since they had done about all they could in ECW and the WWF was a new horizon. They did well for themselves. Taz I think might have been intended for a push but then the Radicals all jumped right after he debuted and he got lost in the shuffle.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jul 23, 2018 9:54:10 GMT -5
Bubba Ray Dudley in a later shoot said he realized ecw was nothing more than a minor league system for the wwe when the Dudleyz told Heyman that they wanted to stay, Heyman got desperate and convinced them to leave, Bubba thinks that Paul did that because if the Dudleyz didn't go to the wwe, ecw would stop receiving money from the wwe.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 23, 2018 15:19:36 GMT -5
Well, it's really only good business to sign away talent if you have some idea what to do with them. In this case I'd say it was 50/50. The Dudleys were absolutely right to go since they had done about all they could in ECW and the WWF was a new horizon. They did well for themselves. Taz I think might have been intended for a push but then the Radicals all jumped right after he debuted and he got lost in the shuffle. I think in Taz' case his body was already turning against him. He took the bigger pay day even though he knew he probably wouldnt be used as well because he was on borrowed time. |
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 23, 2018 17:30:45 GMT -5
Taz wasn't as big of a loss as the Dudleys for ECW. ECW's tag division just never recovered from it, whereas the world title scene should have stayed viable if Heyman had simply put Van Dam in the mix.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 23, 2018 19:35:26 GMT -5
I watched this last night, and while I was a casual fan of ECW, since I didn't get it in my area much, I'm a bit confused. Naturally, since Vince was involved. I appreciate how frank everyone was allowed to be though. Anyway, why, and Vince said it felt right at the time, would Vince want to see someone succeed and at their most important point, offer big contracts to their most important names? If he hadn't taken them, MAYBE they would have gone on and not be a main threat to Vince ever, but they could have co existed. I guess it was about acquiring their name and library really huh? Thoughts? Vince's funding ECW was for several reasons, but I doubt owning the name and library after it was all over was on anyone's mind at the time. It was a different world and Vince wasn't thinking in those terms yet. ECW was a bit of a wild card at the time. They were jumping into PPV and new markets. It was a distraction Vince didn't need while he was focused on Turner and WCW. He couldn't just buy them out at the time, so he played to them and put them in his pocket. ECW goes harder on WCW than it does WWF, Vince doesn't have to worry about seeing one of his guys suddenly show up unannounced on the #3 promotion's show, it served as a feeder system of sorts for sure and it helped get around certain contract stipulations (see: Pillman, Brian). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:13:23 GMT -5
I watched this last night, and while I was a casual fan of ECW, since I didn't get it in my area much, I'm a bit confused. Naturally, since Vince was involved. I appreciate how frank everyone was allowed to be though. Anyway, why, and Vince said it felt right at the time, would Vince want to see someone succeed and at their most important point, offer big contracts to their most important names? If he hadn't taken them, MAYBE they would have gone on and not be a main threat to Vince ever, but they could have co existed. I guess it was about acquiring their name and library really huh? Thoughts? Vince's funding ECW was for several reasons, but I doubt owning the name and library after it was all over was on anyone's mind at the time. It was a different world and Vince wasn't thinking in those terms yet. ECW was a bit of a wild card at the time. They were jumping into PPV and new markets. It was a distraction Vince didn't need while he was focused on Turner and WCW. He couldn't just buy them out at the time, so he played to them and put them in his pocket. ECW goes harder on WCW than it does WWF, Vince doesn't have to worry about seeing one of his guys suddenly show up unannounced on the #3 promotion's show, it served as a feeder system of sorts for sure and it helped get around certain contract stipulations (see: Pillman, Brian). At the time, helping Heyman out (who had been around the McMahon family events since he was a teenager) meant there was a smaller company out there giving guys experience and acting as a breeding ground for talent. Same reason he did things here and there to help Cornette with SMW (via promoting them on his programming) and USWA (through letting them use talent and Vince even going down there and being a character on their shows in the 90s). They didn't have the Performance Center back then, or NXT. It wasn't until the 2000's that a true "developmental system" was even in place with OVW and then Memphis. |
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Post by abjordans on Jul 24, 2018 6:28:41 GMT -5
ECW was never real competition. It did, however, develop stars for Vince. The whole Vince hates every other wrestling promotion is largely a myth in my opinion, which it continues to show to be to this day with all the promotions WWE works with.
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Post by The Barber on Jul 24, 2018 6:57:10 GMT -5
ECW was never real competition. It did, however, develop stars for Vince. The whole Vince hates every other wrestling promotion is largely a myth in my opinion, which it continues to show to be to this day with all the promotions WWE works with... ...and subsequently puts out of business. |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Jul 24, 2018 7:04:15 GMT -5
ECW was never real competition. It did, however, develop stars for Vince. The whole Vince hates every other wrestling promotion is largely a myth in my opinion, which it continues to show to be to this day with all the promotions WWE works with... ...and subsequently puts out of business. Was it really VINCE'S fault ECW went under ? The general consensus seems to be Paul E. Was a great creative guy/hype man but not very good at the actual business end of things |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 7:11:14 GMT -5
Absolutely was not Vince's fault ECW went under. They couldn't land a new TV deal, and were in the hole financially. Vince helped Heyman financially to keep them alive longer than they should have been.
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Post by The Barber on Jul 24, 2018 7:15:54 GMT -5
...and subsequently puts out of business. Was it really VINCE'S fault ECW went under ? The general consensus seems to be Paul E. Was a great creative guy/hype man but not very good at the actual business end of things I wasn't referring to ECW. I was referring to the other promotions Vince worked for that he put out. |
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 24, 2018 9:30:56 GMT -5
Was it really VINCE'S fault ECW went under ? The general consensus seems to be Paul E. Was a great creative guy/hype man but not very good at the actual business end of things I wasn't referring to ECW. I was referring to the other promotions Vince worked for that he put out. Which ones? You could argue that the ones he competed against he put out of business. He was certainly a huge part along with various idiocies by their owners. But which ones he's worked with? USWA? SMW? Those just had poor business, OVW? Still running today. Who has he worked with and specifically put out of business? |
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Post by abjordans on Jul 24, 2018 9:54:49 GMT -5
Was it really VINCE'S fault ECW went under ? The general consensus seems to be Paul E. Was a great creative guy/hype man but not very good at the actual business end of things I wasn't referring to ECW. I was referring to the other promotions Vince worked for that he put out. WWN thriving. The promotions in England doing great. |
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Jul 24, 2018 9:59:05 GMT -5
I watched this last night, and while I was a casual fan of ECW, since I didn't get it in my area much, I'm a bit confused. Naturally, since Vince was involved. I appreciate how frank everyone was allowed to be though. Anyway, why, and Vince said it felt right at the time, would Vince want to see someone succeed and at their most important point, offer big contracts to their most important names? If he hadn't taken them, MAYBE they would have gone on and not be a main threat to Vince ever, but they could have co existed. I guess it was about acquiring their name and library really huh? Thoughts? Losing the likes of Taz and The Dudleys obviously hurt ECW's product but it didn't really affect their business. Even if they'd stayed, ECW would still have gone under (probably at the exact same time it did). Vince used ECW, basically. He helped fund it because it was beneficial to the WWF, not ECW or the wrestling industry as a whole. He used it as a breeding ground for new talent and when he was ready, swooped in and took the talent that he wanted. |
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Post by El Pollo Guerrera on Jul 24, 2018 10:19:02 GMT -5
I wonder if we could chart how and when Vince's attitude changed...
I mean, when he took the WWF/E to a national level, he had the mindset of either absorbing other territories or destroying competition. After a while he must have realized that in doing so, he was shutting down the places where wrestlers were learning how to wrestle, right? What was the point where he looked at the new talent that they were bringing to the ring and he said to himself "We gotta teach this guy some wrestling"?
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 24, 2018 10:25:00 GMT -5
Bischoff basically said that Heyman and ECW functioned as a developmental system for that era, but that Heyman himself convinced the remaining wrestlers otherwise. ECW was never going to stay around long term. The company had too much competition around it that wanted talent and could pay a lot more.
It also didn't help that Heyman ranted about TNN so much during that ill fated era that it likely kept any potential networks from taking a serious look at ECW.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jul 24, 2018 10:58:36 GMT -5
I watched this last night, and while I was a casual fan of ECW, since I didn't get it in my area much, I'm a bit confused. Naturally, since Vince was involved. I appreciate how frank everyone was allowed to be though. Anyway, why, and Vince said it felt right at the time, would Vince want to see someone succeed and at their most important point, offer big contracts to their most important names? If he hadn't taken them, MAYBE they would have gone on and not be a main threat to Vince ever, but they could have co existed. I guess it was about acquiring their name and library really huh? Thoughts? Vince's funding ECW was for several reasons, but I doubt owning the name and library after it was all over was on anyone's mind at the time. It was a different world and Vince wasn't thinking in those terms yet. The regular funding wouldn’t have been for that reason, because it started years before anybody would’ve seen value in the tape library. However, the roughly $500k loan they gave ECW in 2000 was blatantly so that they would be one of the major creditors if/when ECW went bankrupt, and give them an advantage for purchasing the assets. I believe it was Paul E.’s dad, Acclaim and WWE who were owed the most money when ECW folded. |
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Post by willywonka666 on Jul 24, 2018 11:23:34 GMT -5
I wonder if we could chart how and when Vince's attitude changed... I mean, when he took the WWF/E to a national level, he had the mindset of either absorbing other territories or destroying competition. After a while he must have realized that in doing so, he was shutting down the places where wrestlers were learning how to wrestle, right? What was the point where he looked at the new talent that they were bringing to the ring and he said to himself "We gotta teach this guy some wrestling"? In a way though, Vince would have probably looked at wrestlers from other promotions and thought “now they have to be retrained” I think Paul E made a deal with the devil but had to to keep things going |
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Post by El Pollo Guerrera on Jul 24, 2018 14:06:28 GMT -5
I wonder if we could chart how and when Vince's attitude changed... I mean, when he took the WWF/E to a national level, he had the mindset of either absorbing other territories or destroying competition. After a while he must have realized that in doing so, he was shutting down the places where wrestlers were learning how to wrestle, right? What was the point where he looked at the new talent that they were bringing to the ring and he said to himself "We gotta teach this guy some wrestling"? In a way though, Vince would have probably looked at wrestlers from other promotions and thought “now they have to be retrained” I think Paul E made a deal with the devil but had to to keep things going Well, not Duggan and Dibiase and anyone from Mid-South... Or Hogan and Hennig and Michaels and anyone from the AWA... Or anyone that came out of the CWA (Rude, Bundy, Savage, etc.)... After that, Vince did need somewhere to send guys like OVW to send talent to learn the 'WWE style'. |
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