Does USS Intrepid booking undermine Bret's version of events

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Dec 26, 2018 17:48:03 GMT -5 Cranjis McBasketball said:

If you need to know how the booking went here, listen to Conrad and Bruce discuss the sold out European tour Hogan was booked on to sell more tickets and give added value to that Hogan was never on.

If you think it makes no sense, listen to Conrad attempt to untangle it.

Pfff, who are we to doubt Bruce? Hulk needed the belt to sell more tickets for the sold out tour that took place after he'd already lost the title, it makes perfect sense.

[One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs]

Dec 26, 2018 17:48:03 GMT -5 Cranjis McBasketball said:

If you need to know how the booking went here, listen to Conrad and Bruce discuss the sold out European tour Hogan was booked on to sell more tickets and give added value to that Hogan was never on.

If you think it makes no sense, listen to Conrad attempt to untangle it.

Bruce trying to justify whatever ideas Vince comes up with and defending them to the death is my favorite thing ever. The only way to work under Vince for so long is to accept that you don't live in reality anymore, you live on Planet VinnyMac.

[Aceorton]

Just because they wanted Hogan to drop the belt to Bret doesn't mean that in Hogan's absence they wanted Yoko to immediately drop the belt to Bret. Two different dynamics. One is a passing of the torch from babyface to babyface that solidifies Bret as the real deal but still leaves Yoko out there as a major threat. The other takes some of the piss out of Yoko by having Yoko lose to the guy he won the belt from in the first place.

Once it was clear Hogan was leaving, they probably just decided they'd rather run with Yoko as heel champ for a while, so Luger got a last-minute character turn.

The only math that doesn't add up for me is Hogan going into the Intrepid thing as champion. If he retains at KOTR, I agree it's weird for him to then show up to silence Yoko on July 4 after already defeating him. But if Hogan loses at KOTR to set up the Intrepid contest, there's no big show before SummerSlam for him to win the belt back from Yoko. It would have to be at SummerSlam, which would push Hogan-Bret to at least Survivor Series.

[One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs]

Dec 26, 2018 18:08:22 GMT -5 Aceorton said:

The only math that doesn't add up for me is Hogan going into the Intrepid thing as champion. If he retains at KOTR, I agree it's weird for him to then show up to silence Yoko on July 4 after already defeating him. But if Hogan loses at KOTR to set up the Intrepid contest, there's no big show before SummerSlam for him to win the belt back from Yoko. It would have to be at SummerSlam, which would push Hogan-Bret to at least Survivor Series.

Yoko being pissed off and challenging any American to body slam him makes perfect sense coming off of a title loss, even more-so if the finish wasn't clean. Hogan can come in off the chopper with the belt and slam the fat (insert slur) for America, brother. It ends the feud and gives Yoko even more motivation.

[petef3]

Dec 26, 2018 16:16:09 GMT -5 @thehairydrunk said:

Dec 26, 2018 14:06:42 GMT -5 petef3 said:

Seems pretty simple to me: Hogan simply retains at King of the Ring, Bret is established as the #1 contender by virtue of the former champion winning the tournament.

Which would fly in the face of everything they were doing with Yoko to suddenly drop him from the main event picture and suddenly abandon the US vs Japan thing after making tremendous effort with it until what would have been very recently.

How much effort was that, really? Yoko had squashed Duggan, a fairly routine monster heel injury angle, and there was lip service about Yokozuna becoming a "national hero" in Japan. But the really propaganda-style stuff didn't ramp up until after he won the title, which in this universe isn't happening at all.

Re: Luger, that's pretty simple, too: if Hogan doesn't leave, Luger doesn't turn, and he's still the Narcissist probably for at least the rest of '93.

[cjh]

The whole thing is confusing.  The July 4th angle couldn't have been thrown together at the last minute, but if Hart/Hogan for the title really was the original idea, the Intrepid angle is a lot of effort to set up a non-title, undercard match for Yoko at SummerSlam.  Unless Hogan/Hart is the plan for SummerSlam in, say, April, then is immediately changed to Hogan/Yoko or Luger/Yoko, I don't see how you go from such a big angle with Yoko to him facing Luger or someone else down the card while Hogan/Hart main events in a title match.
 

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2018 18:23:02 GMT -5 cjh said:

The whole thing is confusing.  The July 4th angle couldn't have been thrown together at the last minute, but if Hart/Hogan for the title really was the original idea, the Intrepid angle is a lot of effort to set up a non-title, undercard match for Yoko at SummerSlam.  Unless Hogan/Hart is the plan for SummerSlam in, say, April, then is immediately changed to Hogan/Yoko or Luger/Yoko, I don't see how you go from such a big angle with Yoko to him facing Luger or someone else down the card while Hogan/Hart main events in a title match. 

Yeah, the Intrepid angle was obviously designed to play out how it did, the only difference being Luger replaced Hogan at last minute with the plan for a jingoistic-fuelled Summerslam where the American hero gets revenge (in Hogan's case) or avenges a country humiliated (in Luger's case). Each one a minor tweak but essentially the same outcome with a patriotic sell for he Summerslam event with Patriotic Hero vs Foreign Monster.


The fact it isn't really possible to sell the narrative that the original intention that Hogan vs Bret was the original event without also insisting, as you point out, that the USS Intrepid thing was actually done to merely push a non-title, undercard match, is one of the main reasons why I find it so unbelievable. Either that or the plan was for the Intrepid event to happen with Hogan and then be completely forgot about as Hogan immediately turned attention to feuding with Bret and Yokozuna, their monster heel in which they had invested so much money and TV time, disappeared down the undercard. 

Neither scenario seems very logical.

I think maybe Bret was told by Vince that he planned to give him the belt back when he informed him he'd be losing it but that plans changed, Vince wanted to go down the Japan vs America road with Hogan if he could, or a Hogan 'all-American' replacement if he and Hulk couldn't come to terms and that Bret wouldn't have been in the title picture with or without Hogan not because Hogan refused to job but that Vince instead decided to go in a different direction, a decision I'd surmise was taken well in advance of July 4th, King of the Ring or even probably Wrestlemania.

To me that makes much more sense than trying to make the 'Hogan didn't want to job to Bret' square peg fit the round-holes of what we know happened. 

[repomark]

Is there anything that says the big draw of the Intrepid show had to be a body slam challenge? If Hogan was still there could they not have just had a rematch with Yokozuna for the title? Vince just wanted to do a show there for 4th July - nothing dictates what had to fill the show.

It seems straight forward enough to set up the Bret match at Summerslam to either a) have Hogan retain at KOR and defend to Yoko one last time on the Intrepid; b) have Hogan lose at KOR and win a rematch on the Intrepid; or c) have Hogan win at KOR and someone else slam Yokozuna. All are completely straight forward and are not in anyway outlandish.

If you want to have Hogan still be the one to slam Yoko - as champion - all you have to do is have him beat Yoko but not manage to get him up for the slam at KOR. Fuji could then big that fact up, setting up the inevitable feel good moment when Hogan arrives on the Intrepid.

However once Hogan unexpectedly leaves WWF, it makes perfect sense to reset plans and not go with an immediate Bret coronation. Vince needed a replacement for Hogan - and Luger fit that mould. If Vince is booking a feel good 4th July “yay America” moment on the Intrepid - it can’t be Bret (a Canadian who could not believably slam a 550lbs man) to be the guy to do it. It was a panicked response to Hogan leaving to bring in Luger and his big muscles to be that hero to fill the Hulk sized gap he now has on the Intrepid show.

Having done that, it also makes sense to run with Luger into Summerslam instead of Bret and see how it plays out. In the end, by mania 10 Vince went back to Bret because he was more over.

[Tiger Millionaire]

The most logical thing to me: Vince is a lying, manipulative, shithead, and he always has been.

[repomark]

[Red Towels/quote]

The fact it isn't really possible to sell the narrative that the original intention that Hogan vs Bret was the original event without also insisting, as you point out, that the USS Intrepid thing was actually done to merely push a non-title, undercard match, is one of the main reasons why I find it so unbelievable. Either that or the plan was for the Intrepid event to happen with Hogan and then be completely forgot about as Hogan immediately turned attention to feuding with Bret and Yokozuna, their monster heel in which they had invested so much money and TV time, disappeared down the undercard. 

Neither scenario seems very logical.. 

[Red Towels/quote]


I think it is also important to note that they had already devalued Yokozuna to an extent by having him lose to Hogan in minutes at mania (albeit immediately after another match and due to badly aimed Fuji salt). Nothing about that booking suggests that if Hogan stays that there is any intention to invest a great deal more TV time and money into Yokozuna. Hogan leaving I would suggest is the only reason Yoko won the rematch - and his push thereafter may not have ever been as significant without the Hulkster heading off to pastures new.

That said, even if Yoko comes out of KOR and the Intrepid on his back and sans WWF title - plenty of people he can feud with even if he doesn’t get the near year title reign. He clearly would still be high up as a contender to Bret after Summerslam if Bret were to beat Hogan - as Bret at this point would not have beaten him.

It does seem logical to me that plans were in place for Hogan v Bret at Summerslam - and of Bret’s various embellished tales this one seems pretty measured. Must revisit the part of his book about this, as I seem to remember he claimed that he called Hogan out about it as well.

[HMARK Center]

Dec 27, 2018 23:20:45 GMT -5 repomark said:

[Red Towels/quote]

The fact it isn't really possible to sell the narrative that the original intention that Hogan vs Bret was the original event without also insisting, as you point out, that the USS Intrepid thing was actually done to merely push a non-title, undercard match, is one of the main reasons why I find it so unbelievable. Either that or the plan was for the Intrepid event to happen with Hogan and then be completely forgot about as Hogan immediately turned attention to feuding with Bret and Yokozuna, their monster heel in which they had invested so much money and TV time, disappeared down the undercard. 

Neither scenario seems very logical.. 

[Red Towels/quote]


I think it is also important to note that they had already devalued Yokozuna to an extent by having him lose to Hogan in minutes at mania (albeit immediately after another match and due to badly aimed Fuji salt). Nothing about that booking suggests that if Hogan stays that there is any intention to invest a great deal more TV time and money into Yokozuna. Hogan leaving I would suggest is the only reason Yoko won the rematch - and his push thereafter may not have ever been as significant without the Hulkster heading off to pastures new.

That said, even if Yoko comes out of KOR and the Intrepid on his back and sans WWF title - plenty of people he can feud with even if he doesn’t get the near year title reign. He clearly would still be high up as a contender to Bret after Summerslam if Bret were to beat Hogan - as Bret at this point would not have beaten him.

It does seem logical to me that plans were in place for Hogan v Bret at Summerslam - and of Bret’s various embellished tales this one seems pretty measured. Must revisit the part of his book about this, as I seem to remember he claimed that he called Hogan out about it as well.

Yeah, he and Hogan get into a talk about it backstage, Bret tells Hogan about the plans for them to do a match at SummerSlam and how he heard Hogan nixed that, Hogan looks shocked and says "Brother, you don't know the whole story!" and brings Bret to Vince's office and demands Vince explain another version of those events to Bret...basically, Bret realized that BOTH Hogan and Vince were likely BS'ing him.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

By King of the Ring in June, Bret knows he isn't getting the match, well before July 4 or SummerSlam.

[Deleted]

The question is why he didn't get the match. Even in that era Vince was a Hogan mark and saw him as the 'Babe Ruth' (he's a baseball player, I think) of the WWF, he also wasn't a big fan of face vs face, he also had a monster Japanese heel and he's also a sucker for patriotic jingoism. Adding 2 + 2 in that scenario doesn't = Bret vs Hogan. 

Everything about this screams that Vince wanted a Yoko vs American hero 'stars and stripes' Summerslam.

I've no doubt Bret was told by Vince before he dropped the belt at Mania that he'd be getting it back. I don't even doubt that there was a thought towards doing Bret vs Hogan at Summerslam or maybe at Wrestlemania, or maybe just as a house show attraction. But I don't believe for a second 1993 panned out the way it did because Hogan didn't want to drop the belt to Bret. 1993 panned out the way it did because Vince preferred to push the whole 'Monster Japanese heel vs All-American babyface' angle, and he'd do that either with Hogan or 'new Hogan' aka: Luger.

Had Hogan not left the company it would have been the rematch at Summerslam, nationalistic, jinogistic, patriotic and a bit...well, Vince. I don't for a single second knowing what we know of Vince McMahon he'd have had that available to him and nixed it and put on Hogan vs Bret instead. Not a chance.

Vince simply would not have invested so much time in building Yokozuna as a monster heel only to push him down to the undercard because of a McPromise he made several months earlier to a guy who, let's not forget, he chose to strip of the title in the first place.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Vince hates face v face matches? Didn't he pit Hogan against Warrior a few years before, have Bret vs Piper at Wrestlemania, Bret vs Bulldog AND Warrior vs Savage 2 at Summerslam 1992, Bret was also given a good long match at KOTR, against a face Mr. Perfect so Vince can't have had too many ssues with face v face matches, and clearly had confidence in Bret being able to work those kinds of feuds.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

Granted, all there is in the magazine is a Fantasy Match-up with stats, strenghts, weaknesses etc, but there's absolutely no way this goes to print if it wasn't in the works at the time of printing, which would be somewhere around early/mid May if memory serves me right..

[evilone]

.Don't take this the wrong way but you are coming of conviction that wrestling is about long term booking planned way ahead in advance. And it is not for many reasons. Booking is all about plan A, plan B, plan C but also about plan D becoming plan A because of things such as circumstances or last minute changes just because someone had change of hearts. All of the booking is made to make sense short term (45-90 days program) first and foremost but if it can catch a long run than they just squeeze it until they can.

USS Intrepid was circumstance of opportunity to hold a show on it as someone thought it would have been a good idea for promotion. They didn't go and say ohh we need someone to body slam Yoko so we better book USS Intrepid. No, it was the other way around. I'm sure they had at least 3 themes with whole Intrepid thing and Yokozuna body slam was probably their first on the list but sure as hack they had at least two others. Just like how they had a long list of wrestlers who would body slam Yoko successfully and Luger was just one name on the list.

Supposedly it was Hogan who was going to bodyslam Yokozuna or maybe even have the rematch with Yokozuna right there on the spot to get the title back. That would fit perfectly in Hogan vs Monster MO but it wasn't meant to be. What happened was Luger. They had a chance to create a new star and they went with it instead of giving the ball back to Bret. After all Bret vs Yokozuna on SummerSlam would accomplish nothing, it would have ended up in a burial of their biggest heel or their biggest face and cut the legs from any main event programing with the two. They knew they could have always revert to Bret in case something goes wrong. 8 month Yokozuna reign was also a freak coincidence. You could tell they were not sure what to do with either Yokozuna and Luger. If they were set on Luger they would have had him win the belt way before WMX but they were not. They were close but not totally convinced so they had to throw a face vs face angle in it to hand pick the champ. And that's how belt went back to Bret.

[cjh]

Dec 28, 2018 17:37:13 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

Granted, all there is in the magazine is a Fantasy Match-up with stats, strenghts, weaknesses etc, but there's absolutely no way this goes to print if it wasn't in the works at the time of printing, which would be somewhere around early/mid May if memory serves me right..

Those fantasy match ups articles were often just meant to take up space.  Sometimes, one of the guys involved was retired or dead.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

Dec 28, 2018 18:03:57 GMT -5 cjh said:

Dec 28, 2018 17:37:13 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

Granted, all there is in the magazine is a Fantasy Match-up with stats, strenghts, weaknesses etc, but there's absolutely no way this goes to print if it wasn't in the works at the time of printing, which would be somewhere around early/mid May if memory serves me right..

Those fantasy match ups articles were often just meant to take up space.  Sometimes, one of the guys involved was retired or dead.

Those you knew were bogus. This one's about the two main guys in the main event.

[cjh]

Dec 28, 2018 18:45:26 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

Dec 28, 2018 18:03:57 GMT -5 cjh said:

Those fantasy match ups articles were often just meant to take up space.  Sometimes, one of the guys involved was retired or dead.

Those you knew were bogus. This one's about the two main guys in the main event.

Even still, though, they would print stuff teasing angles/matches that, on TV, never came close to happening.  In their 1998 predictions, they hinted at Ken Shamrock and, I think, Ahmed Johnson having a match in an Octagon-style cage at WrestleMania 14. 

[hassanchop]

Dec 27, 2018 22:42:20 GMT -5 repomark said:

If Vince is booking a feel good 4th July “yay America” moment on the Intrepid - it can’t be Bret (a Canadian who could not believably slam a 550lbs man) to be the guy to do it. It was a panicked response to Hogan leaving to bring in Luger and his big muscles to be that hero to fill the Hulk sized gap he now has on the Intrepid show.

Unless he dresses like a cowboy. Or they could sell it that no American can slam him, but a foreigner did. Kurt Angle is almost the same size as Bret and he Angle slammed Rikishi and Big Show, so maybe Bret could try an Angle slam/Teardrop suplex on Yokozuna. There was that one time Bret superplexed Vader at In Your House. Though Vader was on the top rope and one could say Bret pulled him down.