Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 12:57:56 GMT -5
Summer 1993. Such a booking would have required substantial logistical planning, not only securing the venue itself on the day of 4th July, but also being able to bring in the various sports stars who made the attempt at slamming. Yet if you believe the Bret Hart version that he was a victim of "That doesn't work for me, brother" and the intention was that Hogan drop the belt to him at Summerslam.
So how would that have worked?
It doesn't make any sense to have this monster heel in place, push hard with the anti-American thing as they were doing long before Hogan came onto the scene only to end up with the belt back on Bret, a Canadian, a month later. To me that indicates that significantly in advance of the bodyslam challenge event, the intention was that 'Evil monster heel from the Orient vs All-American hero' was the narrative the company were forging ahead with that summer. Everything points that way only with Luger being promoted in the Hogan role.
I don't see how we'd ever end up with the company putting so much behind the monster anti-American heel, and end up with Hogan vs Bret at Summerslam. Especially when you look at how the back-up plan to the Hogan vs Yoko feud when Hogan bailed, it wasn't Bret who Vince turned to, but Hogan jnr. Yet whenever this story is retold it's taken as fact that the plan was to have Hogan drop to Bret at Summerslam. Arguably the biggest myth from the time?
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Dec 26, 2018 14:06:42 GMT -5
Seems pretty simple to me: Hogan simply retains at King of the Ring, Bret is established as the #1 contender by virtue of the former champion winning the tournament.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:16:09 GMT -5
Seems pretty simple to me: Hogan simply retains at King of the Ring, Bret is established as the #1 contender by virtue of the former champion winning the tournament. Which would fly in the face of everything they were doing with Yoko to suddenly drop him from the main event picture and suddenly abandon the US vs Japan thing after making tremendous effort with it until what would have been very recently. The whole 'Vince really wanted Hogan to drop the belt to Bret' only really works if you pretend Lex Luger didn't happen. If you factor him in, none of Bret's claims about how things were supposed to pan out make any sense at all. Even ignoring everything else if the only obstacle to Vince putting the strap back on Bret was Hogan, why post-Hogan did the strap not go to Bret? Almost everything points to Bret being told he was going to get the belt back in order to placate him/soften the blow when Vince told him he was dropping it at WM9, because looking at how it played out there's no way Bret would have been in the title picture when the company had clearly identified a USA vs Japan theme that they were willing to run with, whether it be with Hogan or replacement Hogan, with Yoko being front and centre. It's like what Bruce Prichard says on his show: there are things Vince says and there are things guys choose to hear Vince say. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:26:19 GMT -5
Put it this way:
Bret has been told Vince wants the strap back on him, but evil Hogan won't job. Hogan leaves in June. 5 months later Bret, the guy who Vince definitely wanted to put the title on and the man who was only not given the title because evil **** Hogan (credit:OSW) won't job, is wrestling on the undercard of a PPV in 5-month feud with a commentator, in a match involving Jeff Gaylord and Barry Horowitz.
Surely there comes a point where the whole 'Bret would have been champ but Hogan wouldn't put him over' narrative becomes a really hardsell even to the die-hard Bret fans/
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 26, 2018 16:27:42 GMT -5
From what I remember the Intrepid thing WAS setup for Hogan to arrive on the Helicopter they booked the venue before Hogan decided he was leaving for Hollywood.
and Hogan was supposed to drop it to Bret.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:31:22 GMT -5
From what I remember the Intrepid thing WAS setup for Hogan to arrive on the Helicopter they booked the venue before Hogan decided he was leaving for Hollywood. and Hogan was supposed to drop it to Bret. Why then didn't Yoko drop to Bret instead? Also assuming that Hogan was to go on to drop to Bret, he would have retained at KoTR? If so why the need for the 4th of July event anyway, Hogan would have already defeated Yokozuna and moved on. This is something that as a fan never really made sense. To believe the intention was for Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam you really do need to make huge leaps of faiths and assumptions and pretty much pretend everything that happened, didn't. So Hogan would have retained at KoTR, Yoko, despite being defeated, would still have been a monster heel requiring Hogan to make a comeback on the USS Intrepid to slam him in a big outburst of patriotism (despite it not being a come back because on the 'Hogan was supposed to job to Bret' scenario he would have just defeated Yokozuna) which would have then been immediately forgotten about as attention then turned to Hogan vs Hart at Summerslam? I know wrestling at times isn't logical but that would be fairly ridiculous. Which is why I have a hard time buying that as 'plan A' |
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Post by One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs on Dec 26, 2018 16:42:51 GMT -5
You don't need to have Yoko be champion in order for the Intrepid angle to work, and Luger getting a hero's treatment actually makes way more sense if Yoko wasn't champ because then he could win cleanly. Have Hogan win at KOTR by a botched Fuji interference again, and add intrigue to the Hogan/Hart match by adding the intrigue that Hogan might have lost a step and couldn't win without outside help.
Yoko comes out to the Intrepid pissed off and looking to take on all American challengers, which is still answered by Luger. Luger then beats Yoko cleanly, and then he can actually get his hero's treatment and subsequent push without looking like such a f***ing goober. Bret could then send Hogan packing (either cleanly or by cheating and turning) which then sets up your two new faces to fill the Hogan void.
And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:50:54 GMT -5
You don't need to have Yoko be champion in order for the Intrepid angle to work, and Luger getting a hero's treatment actually makes way more sense if Yoko wasn't champ because then he could win cleanly. Have Hogan win at KOTR by a botched Fuji interference again, and add intrigue to the Hogan/Hart match by adding the intrigue that Hogan might have lost a step and couldn't win without outside help. Yoko comes out to the Intrepid pissed off and looking to take on all American challengers, which is still answered by Luger. Luger then beats Yoko cleanly, and then he can actually get his hero's treatment and subsequent push without looking like such a f***ing goober. Bret could then send Hogan packing (either cleanly or by cheating and turning) which then sets up your two new faces to fill the Hogan void. And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread. The whole point behind the USS Intrepid thing was Yokozuna celebrating his title win and challenging any American to slam him. Hogan was the guy who was originally intended to slam Yokozuna, Luger was the guy who stepped in for Hogan and was the last minute Hogan and that summer played out how it was always intended to but with Luger being Hogan post-KOTR. Luger was a last minute deal. He was still a heel on syndicated TV when the July 4th event happened. It makes the whole 'Bret was supposed to go over Hogan at SS' even less credible if to get there you have to pretend that the intention was for Luger to slam Yokozuna all along. Moreover, in your scenario Vince booked the USS Intrepid to kick-start an undercard angle between Luger (who apparently was supposed to be the All-American hero the whole time now) and Yokozuna who'd just been defeated by Hogan in a scewy finish but for some reason the screwy finish wasn't used to set up a rematch)? Even that doesn't ring true at all. |
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Dec 26, 2018 16:57:15 GMT -5
From what I remember the Intrepid thing WAS setup for Hogan to arrive on the Helicopter they booked the venue before Hogan decided he was leaving for Hollywood. and Hogan was supposed to drop it to Bret. Why then didn't Yoko drop to Bret instead? They did! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 16:58:10 GMT -5
Why then didn't Yoko drop to Bret instead? They did! 8 months later once Luger's push petered out. |
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Post by One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs on Dec 26, 2018 17:00:51 GMT -5
You don't need to have Yoko be champion in order for the Intrepid angle to work, and Luger getting a hero's treatment actually makes way more sense if Yoko wasn't champ because then he could win cleanly. Have Hogan win at KOTR by a botched Fuji interference again, and add intrigue to the Hogan/Hart match by adding the intrigue that Hogan might have lost a step and couldn't win without outside help. Yoko comes out to the Intrepid pissed off and looking to take on all American challengers, which is still answered by Luger. Luger then beats Yoko cleanly, and then he can actually get his hero's treatment and subsequent push without looking like such a f***ing goober. Bret could then send Hogan packing (either cleanly or by cheating and turning) which then sets up your two new faces to fill the Hogan void. And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread. The whole point behind the USS Intrepid thing was Yokozuna celebrating his title win and challenging any American to slam him. Hogan was the guy who was originally intended to slam Yokozuna, Luger was the guy who stepped in for Hogan and was the last minute Hogan and that summer played out how it was always intended to but with Luger being Hogan post-KOTR. Luger was a last minute deal. He was still a heel on syndicated TV when the July 4th event happened. It makes the whole 'Bret was supposed to go over Hogan at SS' even less credible if to get there you have to pretend that the intention was for Luger to slam Yokozuna all along. Moreover, in your scenario Vince booked the USS Intrepid to kick-start an undercard angle between Luger (who apparently was supposed to be the All-American hero the whole time now) and Yokozuna who'd just been defeated by Hogan in a scewy finish but for some reason the screwy finish wasn't used to set up a rematch)? Even that doesn't ring true at all. Okay, so then it was just another promotional stunt to tie into July 4th. Hogan once again defeats the evil foreign heel, who doesn't get a rematch because he keeps attempting to cheat. That also makes perfect sense, especially for the ultra-jingoistic schlock Vince was pushing at the time. Bret gets the Summerslam match because he lost his title due to interference. You're also ignoring the whole "WWF was promoting a Hogan/Hart title match for Summerslam" thing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 17:09:17 GMT -5
The whole point behind the USS Intrepid thing was Yokozuna celebrating his title win and challenging any American to slam him. Hogan was the guy who was originally intended to slam Yokozuna, Luger was the guy who stepped in for Hogan and was the last minute Hogan and that summer played out how it was always intended to but with Luger being Hogan post-KOTR. Luger was a last minute deal. He was still a heel on syndicated TV when the July 4th event happened. It makes the whole 'Bret was supposed to go over Hogan at SS' even less credible if to get there you have to pretend that the intention was for Luger to slam Yokozuna all along. Moreover, in your scenario Vince booked the USS Intrepid to kick-start an undercard angle between Luger (who apparently was supposed to be the All-American hero the whole time now) and Yokozuna who'd just been defeated by Hogan in a scewy finish but for some reason the screwy finish wasn't used to set up a rematch)? Even that doesn't ring true at all. Okay, so then it was just another promotional stunt to tie into July 4th. Hogan once again defeats the evil foreign heel, who doesn't get a rematch because he keeps attempting to cheat. That also makes perfect sense, especially for the ultra-jingoistic schlock Vince was pushing at the time. Bret gets the Summerslam match because he lost his title due to interference. You're also ignoring the whole "WWF was promoting a Hogan/Hart title match for Summerslam" thing. I'm not ignoring it but it's gone from WWE magazine supposedly running a promotion for a Hogan/Hart match at KOTR to now promoting a Hogan/Hart match at Summerslam in your last post. Are you sure you're not referring to that photoshoot that never saw the light of day of Hogan and Bret playing tug-of-war with the belt? I've no doubt that photo existed and that there would have been a purpose for it: planned house show feud, Survivor Series? Wrestlemania? Maybe even Summerslam. Who knows? You just called Vince 'ultra-jingoistic' and that's fair. Yet you believe the same man would book the USS Intrepid for July 4th to feature a big anti-American heel and the result of that would have been a feud that would have had nothing to do with the title picture featuring Luger who had been the intention all along despite the fact on TV he was still a heel and had been advertised as a heel for events that were to take place after July 4th? Credit: HistoryOfWWE.com for the below: On the one hand we have: What Bret says Vince told him That picture. On the other side you have what actually happens and the fact that to square the whole 'Vince really wanted Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam to win the belt' circle you have to retrospectively subject the whole time period to some pretty spurious logic. |
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Post by One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs on Dec 26, 2018 17:24:11 GMT -5
Okay, so then it was just another promotional stunt to tie into July 4th. Hogan once again defeats the evil foreign heel, who doesn't get a rematch because he keeps attempting to cheat. That also makes perfect sense, especially for the ultra-jingoistic schlock Vince was pushing at the time. Bret gets the Summerslam match because he lost his title due to interference. You're also ignoring the whole "WWF was promoting a Hogan/Hart title match for Summerslam" thing. I'm not ignoring it but it's gone from WWE magazine supposedly running a promotion for a Hogan/Hart match at KOTR to now promoting a Hogan/Hart match at Summerslam in your last post. Are you sure you're not referring to that photoshoot that never saw the light of day of Hogan and Bret playing tug-of-war with the belt? I've no doubt that photo existed and that there would have been a purpose for it: planned house show feud, Survivor Series? Wrestlemania? Maybe even Summerslam. Who knows? You just called Vince 'ultra-jingoistic' and that's fair. Yet you believe the same man would book the USS Intrepid for July 4th to feature a big anti-American heel and the result of that would have been a feud that would have had nothing to do with the title picture featuring Luger who had been the intention all along despite the fact on TV he was still a heel and had been advertised as a heel for events that were to take place after July 4th? Credit: HistoryOfWWE.com for the below: On the one hand we have: What Bret says Vince told him That picture. On the other side you have what actually happens and the fact that to square the whole 'Vince really wanted Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam to win the belt' circle you have to retrospectively subject the whole time period to some pretty spurious logic. I never said anything about Hogan/Hart at KOTR, I was saying that Hogan winning due to another botched Fuji interference makes total sense if they were building to a Hogan/Hart match at Summerslam. Hogan being the one to slam Yoko after retaining the title at KOTR also makes total sense, even more so than rapidly turning Luger to do it if the entire plan was to turn Luger face. They knew that Hogan was gone in the summer, but thought they'd be able to extend him to August to drop the belt at Summerslam. Negotiations fell apart and they had to rapidly shift gears, which is why the booking for the entire rest of the year is such a mess. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 17:30:51 GMT -5
Well yes you did, you said: "And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread."
But even ignoring that you're left with essentially putting forward the theory that the whole July 4th thing was set up solely to turn Lex Luger. So they had the foresight to book an event such as that to turn him heel in advance but not the foresight to make preparations for it on television and still have Luger go out on syndicated shows as a heel, work as a heel at events days leading up to the event, and advertised as a heel for shows after when the event had taken place.
You cannot really argue that the intention was for Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam without the above scenario being true but the above scenario is patently ridiculous, isn't it?
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 26, 2018 17:37:26 GMT -5
Such a weird hate-on for Bret Hart.....strange thread, especially given that the "patently ridiculous" scenario has been confirmed over and over and over by multiple sources.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 26, 2018 17:38:41 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring it but it's gone from WWE magazine supposedly running a promotion for a Hogan/Hart match at KOTR to now promoting a Hogan/Hart match at Summerslam in your last post. Are you sure you're not referring to that photoshoot that never saw the light of day of Hogan and Bret playing tug-of-war with the belt? I've no doubt that photo existed and that there would have been a purpose for it: planned house show feud, Survivor Series? Wrestlemania? Maybe even Summerslam. Who knows? You just called Vince 'ultra-jingoistic' and that's fair. Yet you believe the same man would book the USS Intrepid for July 4th to feature a big anti-American heel and the result of that would have been a feud that would have had nothing to do with the title picture featuring Luger who had been the intention all along despite the fact on TV he was still a heel and had been advertised as a heel for events that were to take place after July 4th? Credit: HistoryOfWWE.com for the below: On the one hand we have: What Bret says Vince told him That picture. On the other side you have what actually happens and the fact that to square the whole 'Vince really wanted Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam to win the belt' circle you have to retrospectively subject the whole time period to some pretty spurious logic. I never said anything about Hogan/Hart at KOTR, I was saying that Hogan winning due to another botched Fuji interference makes total sense if they were building to a Hogan/Hart match at Summerslam. Hogan being the one to slam Yoko after retaining the title at KOTR also makes total sense, even more so than rapidly turning Luger to do it if the entire plan was to turn Luger face. They knew that Hogan was gone in the summer, but thought they'd be able to extend him to August to drop the belt at Summerslam. Negotiations fell apart and they had to rapidly shift gears, which is why the booking for the entire rest of the year is such a mess. Well, that and the steroid trial prep kicking into full gear diverting Vince's attention, leading a lot of "shuffling the deck chair on the Titanic" vibes from the booking. |
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Post by One of the Cooler, Candid TOKs on Dec 26, 2018 17:42:04 GMT -5
Well yes you did, you said: "And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread." But even ignoring that you're left with essentially putting forward the theory that the whole July 4th thing was set up solely to turn Lex Luger. So they had the foresight to book an event such as that to turn him heel in advance but not the foresight to make preparations for it on television and still have Luger go out on syndicated shows as a heel, work as a heel at events days leading up to the event, and advertised as a heel for shows after when the event had taken place. You cannot really argue that the intention was for Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam without the above scenario being true but the above scenario is patently ridiculous, isn't it? The KOTR thing was a typo, my mistake. I thought the subsequent posts made that obvious. Also, I presented two different theories, one that the Intrepid was always meant to turn Luger regardless of Hogan and one that the Intrepid was originally meant for Hogan. How is the second one "patently ridiculous"? Hogan goes over and puts a cap on the Yoko feud and Vince gets his "AMERICA f*** YEAH" July 4th promotional stunt. |
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 26, 2018 17:44:37 GMT -5
Well yes you did, you said: "And this all falls apart anyway because the WWF was doing promotion for a Hogan/Hart title match at KOTR, including a magazine spread." But even ignoring that you're left with essentially putting forward the theory that the whole July 4th thing was set up solely to turn Lex Luger. So they had the foresight to book an event such as that to turn him heel in advance but not the foresight to make preparations for it on television and still have Luger go out on syndicated shows as a heel, work as a heel at events days leading up to the event, and advertised as a heel for shows after when the event had taken place. You cannot really argue that the intention was for Bret to go over Hogan at Summerslam without the above scenario being true but the above scenario is patently ridiculous, isn't it? The KOTR thing was a typo, my mistake. I thought the subsequent posts made that obvious. Also, I presented two different theories, one that the Intrepid was always meant to turn Luger regardless of Hogan and one that the Intrepid was originally meant for Hogan. How is the second one "patently ridiculous"? Hogan goes over and puts a cap on the Yoko feud and Vince gets his "AMERICA f*** YEAH" July 4th promotional stunt. Yeah. The basic thrust here is "Hogan leaving f***ed a lot of booking plans WWF had at the time". It's not a hard concept to grasp. |
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
It's Just a Ride
Posts: 42,477
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 26, 2018 17:48:03 GMT -5
If you need to know how the booking went here, listen to Conrad and Bruce discuss the sold out European tour Hogan was booked on to sell more tickets and give added value to that Hogan was never on.
If you think it makes no sense, listen to Conrad attempt to untangle it.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 26, 2018 17:49:59 GMT -5
If you need to know how the booking went here, listen to Conrad and Bruce discuss the sold out European tour Hogan was booked on to sell more tickets and give added value to that Hogan was never on. If you think it makes no sense, listen to Conrad attempt to untangle it. Holy shit, yeah, that is genuinely one of the most infuriating discussions of that podcast. Listening to Conrad weakly try to dissemble Bruce's BS DoubleDoubleEspeak is so frustrating. |
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