Does USS Intrepid booking undermine Bret's version of events

[Deleted]

To me it boils down to this:

Given what we know of Vince McMahon do we think pushing an All-American hero in a main event world title match against a foreign heel he'd spent months pushing as the biggest monster in the company, after an event on the 4th of July on the USS Intrepid, with the Palace of Auburn Hills in Michigan decked out like Hacksaw Jim Duggen's wet dream - was 'plan B'. And 'plan A' was a singles match involving an American vs a Canadian, demoting the monster foreign heel who'd just been given the Intrepid show the month before down the card, in order to return the title to someone he decided to remove it from at the biggest match of the year just 4 months before?


Fact is Vince wanted to move away from Bret, who only came back into the title scene a year later once Hogan had gone and Luger had proven a monster flop and the only other viable babyface alternative (Undertaker) was injured. No matter what anyone says, a feud with a commentator, wrestling Doink at Summerslam and being in a PPV match opposing Jeff Gaylord, isn't how a promoter would treat someone he was keen to return the belt to at that time. As circumstances changed he did get it back in spring of 1994, but everything that actually happened indicated that Vince was perfectly relaxed for Bret, post WM9, to play a supporting role on the undercard. 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Dec 29, 2018 8:36:39 GMT -5 @thehairydrunk said:

To me it boils down to this:

Given what we know of Vince McMahon do we think pushing an All-American hero in a main event world title match against a foreign heel he'd spent months pushing as the biggest monster in the company, after an event on the 4th of July on the USS Intrepid, with the Palace of Auburn Hills in Michigan decked out like Hacksaw Jim Duggen's wet dream - was 'plan B'. And 'plan A' was a singles match involving an American vs a Canadian, demoting the monster foreign heel who'd just been given the Intrepid show the month before down the card, in order to return the title to someone he decided to remove it from at the biggest match of the year just 4 months before?


Fact is Vince wanted to move away from Bret, who only came back into the title scene a year later once Hogan had gone and Luger had proven a monster flop and the only other viable babyface alternative (Undertaker) was injured. No matter what anyone says, a feud with a commentator, wrestling Doink at Summerslam and being in a PPV match opposing Jeff Gaylord, isn't how a promoter would treat someone he was keen to return the belt to at that time. As circumstances changed he did get it back in spring of 1994, but everything that actually happened indicated that Vince was perfectly relaxed for Bret, post WM9, to play a supporting role on the undercard. 

So let’s go over what did happen.

Bret wrestles 3 matches, entire PPV booked around him.

Lex arrived at SummerSlam, won by count out. The monster heel is still champion. Stipulation stated Luger can’t get another title shot.

Bret wrestles two matches against “just Doink and a commentator”

Luger enters into a feud with Lugvig Borga. No one cares.

Yoko enters a feud with Taker. Kills the Taker. Sends him to Heaven.

Bret enters feud with Owen.

Bret wrestles twice in one night, wins popularity contest with Luger.

Luger gets title shot. Gets DQ’d. No one remembers match.

Bret wrestles twice in one night, including 5 star MOTY, then in another match wins WWF title.

Monster heel is done his ME event run. Canadian Bret did it. Not an American, not a muscle guy.

It takes Bret a year to get there, but he does. You gloss over Jerry Lawler and Matt Bourne like they are nothing, then ignore HBK and Greg Valentine as the workers in the Survivor Series match.

[Deleted]

So Lawler vs Bret was intended to be a one night thing only?


You can either view that as two ways: Bret was always designed to win KoTR and go on to feud with Lawler at Summerslam and beyond.

OR

Bret would be beat down by Lawler and then everything forgot about because Vince wanted Bret to face Hogan at SS

OR

Lawler was never intended to beat down Bret and KoTR was supposed to end with Bret smiling and waving.



No matter how you retcon it, Bret vs Hogan at Summerslam as a 'plan A' is very, very, very difficult to get to logically.

[RowdyRobbyPiper]

Dec 28, 2018 18:03:57 GMT -5 cjh said:

Dec 28, 2018 17:37:13 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

Granted, all there is in the magazine is a Fantasy Match-up with stats, strenghts, weaknesses etc, but there's absolutely no way this goes to print if it wasn't in the works at the time of printing, which would be somewhere around early/mid May if memory serves me right..

Those fantasy match ups articles were often just meant to take up space.  Sometimes, one of the guys involved was retired or dead.

Hogan was alive, well, and still very much an active wrestler on the WWF roster in 1993.

[repomark]

Dec 29, 2018 17:08:33 GMT -5 @thehairydrunk said:

So Lawler vs Bret was intended to be a one night thing only?


You can either view that as two ways: Bret was always designed to win KoTR and go on to feud with Lawler at Summerslam and beyond.

OR

Bret would be beat down by Lawler and then everything forgot about because Vince wanted Bret to face Hogan at SS

OR

Lawler was never intended to beat down Bret and KoTR was supposed to end with Bret smiling and waving.



No matter how you retcon it, Bret vs Hogan at Summerslam as a 'plan A' is very, very, very difficult to get to logically.

I have already explained how you can get to Bret v Hogan logically as the plan A in other posts, as well as how Yokozuna was not booked like a long term champion or someone they had intended to run with to the extent they did until Hogan left - so will not go there again.

Bret’s point was Vince told him it was the plan for Summerslam, and I believe him as it makes perfect sense. It also appears that moves were made to begin the promotion of the match prior to changing direction. Whether Vince never intended to do it is another matter that no one can answer - but he certainly gave the impression that was the plan it appears.

Bear in mind if that was plan A that at KOR they now know Hogan is leaving. So they need to get the belt off him, and work out another programme for Bret having decided against a Yoko v Bret rematch at that point. Step up Jerry Lawler to fill that feud gap.

The Intrepid show was set up initially to do something patriotic for 4th July, it does not necessarily have to be the pivotal moment to set up the Summerslam main event. It played out that way because they had to reset after Hogan leaving, but it could have been any number of things instead as explained in other posts.

Basically the Intrepid show has no bearing whatsoever in undermining Bret’s version of events - it is just a case of who you prefer to believe.

[cjh]

Dec 29, 2018 17:29:36 GMT -5 RowdyRobbyPiper said:

Dec 28, 2018 18:03:57 GMT -5 cjh said:

Those fantasy match ups articles were often just meant to take up space.  Sometimes, one of the guys involved was retired or dead.

Hogan was alive, well, and still very much an active wrestler on the WWF roster in 1993.

They still would do articles that were only meant to fill the pages rather than promote an actual TV storyline.  There was a article in late-1994 or early-1995 where the magazine "discovered" Jack Tunney was taking bribes from Ted DiBiase, only for it to be revealed in a later issue that DiBiase was actually paying a fine for one of his Corporation members.  I don't think the accusation or the "real story" was ever mentioned on TV.

[segaz]

In no way is it impossible for Bret/Hogan to be the main event and still have yoko Hogan at kotr and uss intrepid. You had a Bret/Luger narrative unresolved from Wrestlemania IX also if you remember. It wouldn't have been completely insane to have had Bret fail to pick yoko up, and then Hogan does, leading to a Summerslam.
Bret and Lawler tbh could easily take place afterwards with a bit more intrigue now the title is added to it.

I have no doubt in my mind that Bret was presented with one option for Summerslam. Did Vince take advantage of his naivety or was he forced to change plans?

I mean, they still had Hogan on the roster and yet he was kept off TV. They could have done Hogan cheering on Luger and endorsing him to take yoko on. Wouldn't that make sense? But they didn't do that.

Bottom line, Summerslams main event still doesn't make sense logically even now. You have Luger practically beat and totally knock out Yokozuna once. Where is the mystique for the rematch? It took perfect to screw him (from WM IX also). Not to mention the count out win and rechase for a year just looks pretty poor in retrospect.



You are arguing Bret/Hogan doesn't make sense, when really even Luger/Yoko doesn't make much sense. No true face turn for their protected Number 2/3 Heel in the company at the time either. Does that turn make any sense?

[EyeofTyr]

Honestly given all the players involved and Vince's trend of treating his smaller, more workrated oriented top stars a certain way that tracks with this, it wouldn't surprise me at all to know that Vince was BS'ing Bret and that while he entertained the idea of making Bret The Man, Bret was very much a distant Plan C. Like it's been discussed, Hogan was initially supposed to show up and bodyslam Yoko to continue their feud, presumably to add more heat to the fire of it after Yoko took the title off of him. When Hogan bounced completely, Luger became the new option. I fully believe Vince tried to make that option work too in his own Vince way and saw Luger as worst case scenario someone to pad out Yoko's reign to give him time to make another plan or if Luger took off, a possible new ace for his company.

Had Luger's push succeeded, I think Bret's rise to the top would've been delayed. Much like Savage was always behind Hogan and/or Warrior and Punk was behind Cena and/or Orton, Bret was not Vince's first pick and I think pretty much everyone but Bret knew that.

[Deleted]

When Bret and Hogan confronted Vince at KoTR, in front of him was a guy who was going to be leaving and a guy who would be staying and likely be one of the mainstays of the company for the foreseeable future. If Vince promised Bret the belt at SS and meant it why not say:

"Actually, Terry, Bret's right. You said to me that you'd pass the torch at Summerslam and give Bret the rub with the belt"

Instead he said to Bret: (paraphrasing) "That's what you thought you heard."

This is something else people over look because there exists a desperation for some reason to believe that Hogan is evil and Bret is hard done by. That and "the magazine cover". It's clutching at straws. There really is just that magazine cover now that points towards Hogan vs Bret ever being planned for Summerslam, yet it still persists as one of these things presented as self-evident fact. I think it's one of those "..because it's Hogan" circumstances where the wrestling fan base won't be shaken from the idea that the reality must have been the outcome where he acted like a dick "...because it's Hogan."

[The Dark Order Inferno]

Seem more like you're searching for holes and lies "... Because it's Bret" more than anything.

Vince not saying in Hogan had politicked in front of Bret and Hogan isn't proof of anything other than Vince doesn't want to piss off talent he thinks can still make money from. Does anyone really think Vince would hang Hulk out to dry when he fully expected he would return in a year or two and accept the Babe Ruth role once his Hollywood dream fell flat? Come on. Someone as thin skinned as Hogan would walk out and never come back.

"Yeah Hulk, you came to me, pissed moaned and got plans changed because you didn't like the idea of putting someone over then being used sparingly as a special attraction while younger guys get a chance to carry the company... Well, unless that younger guy was Brutus Beefcake. Oh, and while I'm being truthful, as Vince Mcmahon is known for being, you're bald too. Give it up Terry, we all know it."

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2018 18:24:55 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

Seem more like you're searching for holes and lies "... Because it's Bret" more than anything.

Vince not saying in Hogan had politicked in front of Bret and Hogan isn't proof of anything other than Vince doesn't want to piss off talent he thinks can still make money from. Does anyone really think Vince would hang Hulk out to dry when he fully expected he would return in a year or two and accept the Babe Ruth role once his Hollywood dream fell flat? Come on. Someone as thin skinned as Hogan would walk out and never come back.

"Yeah Hulk, you came to me, pissed moaned and got plans changed because you didn't like the idea of putting someone over then being used sparingly as a special attraction while younger guys get a chance to carry the company... Well, unless that younger guy was Brutus Beefcake. Oh, and while I'm being truthful, as Vince Mcmahon is known for being, you're bald too. Give it up Terry, we all know it."

But he was fine with pissing off Bret? Again if you're positioning it like that it again doesn't really suggest Vince was an eager beaver at putting Bret in the title picture at that time.

It's such a convoluted narrative you have to spin to argue that Hogan refused to job the title to Bret at Summerslam. You have to interpret the conversation between the three of them above as you have, you have to somehow pretend the monster foreign heel was always intended to drop to the midcard for the second biggest PPV of the year, you have to somehow explain why Luger was turned face at the very, very last minute if the 'plan' was always to have a babyface, who wasn't Hogan, slam him and go on to have a SS match with him. You have to explain why Luger was advertised at shows post 4th July as a heel.  You also have to argue that the booking of the Intrepid wasn't done to  further promote a gloating WWE Champion heel who'd challenge American, but instead just a thing that happened and that Vince booked it knowing full well it wouldn't even be used to promote the main event at the next PPV. You have to explain why the Lawler attach was supposedly never to receive any kind of pay-off as Bret immediately forgot about it and started feuding with Hogan.  You have to explain all of that and more.


The alternative 'theory' is: Vince decided to go in a different direction. Just like he has with many rumoured storylines, angles, matches and pushes down the years. 

The reason why I used "....because it's Hogan" is due to the fact his involvement means some fans absolutely refuse to see what is obvious and instead construct a convoluted narrative to try and poorly rationalise everything away  as long as they get to the outcome that concludes that it all happened because Hogan is an ass. 


Vince took the belt of Hart in the first place
Vince sided with Hogan in the three-way conversation, despite the fact Hulk was already gone
After Hulk had left rather than put Bret in the title picture he hastily invented a new character
Vince had just invested more money and time promoting a main event heel than he had at any point for a considerable time at that point

Internet concludes: Vince wanted the belt back on Bret but Hogan ruined his plans.

Now ALL of that might be true. There's a chance I'm wrong. But the elephant in the room surely has to be why the eminently more plausible and rational explanation of: "Vince changed his mind" is rarely countenanced in favour of what is undeniably a fairly elaborate re-imagining of events that you have to undertake to argue the opposite. 

[segaz]

Dec 31, 2018 2:12:08 GMT -5 @thehairydrunk said:

Dec 30, 2018 18:24:55 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

Seem more like you're searching for holes and lies "... Because it's Bret" more than anything.

Vince not saying in Hogan had politicked in front of Bret and Hogan isn't proof of anything other than Vince doesn't want to piss off talent he thinks can still make money from. Does anyone really think Vince would hang Hulk out to dry when he fully expected he would return in a year or two and accept the Babe Ruth role once his Hollywood dream fell flat? Come on. Someone as thin skinned as Hogan would walk out and never come back.

"Yeah Hulk, you came to me, pissed moaned and got plans changed because you didn't like the idea of putting someone over then being used sparingly as a special attraction while younger guys get a chance to carry the company... Well, unless that younger guy was Brutus Beefcake. Oh, and while I'm being truthful, as Vince Mcmahon is known for being, you're bald too. Give it up Terry, we all know it."

But he was fine with pissing off Bret? Again if you're positioning it like that it again doesn't really suggest Vince was an eager beaver at putting Bret in the title picture at that time.

It's such a convoluted narrative you have to spin to argue that Hogan refused to job the title to Bret at Summerslam. You have to interpret the conversation between the three of them above as you have, you have to somehow pretend the monster foreign heel was always intended to drop to the midcard for the second biggest PPV of the year, you have to somehow explain why Luger was turned face at the very, very last minute if the 'plan' was always to have a babyface, who wasn't Hogan, slam him and go on to have a SS match with him. You have to explain why Luger was advertised at shows post 4th July as a heel.  You also have to argue that the booking of the Intrepid wasn't done to  further promote a gloating WWE Champion heel who'd challenge American, but instead just a thing that happened and that Vince booked it knowing full well it wouldn't even be used to promote the main event at the next PPV. You have to explain why the Lawler attach was supposedly never to receive any kind of pay-off as Bret immediately forgot about it and started feuding with Hogan.  You have to explain all of that and more.


The alternative 'theory' is: Vince decided to go in a different direction. Just like he has with many rumoured storylines, angles, matches and pushes down the years. 

The reason why I used "....because it's Hogan" is due to the fact his involvement means some fans absolutely refuse to see what is obvious and instead construct a convoluted narrative to try and poorly rationalise everything away  as long as they get to the outcome that concludes that it all happened because Hogan is an ass. 


Vince took the belt of Hart in the first place
Vince sided with Hogan in the three-way conversation, despite the fact Hulk was already gone
After Hulk had left rather than put Bret in the title picture he hastily invented a new character
Vince had just invested more money and time promoting a main event heel than he had at any point for a considerable time at that point

Internet concludes: Vince wanted the belt back on Bret but Hogan ruined his plans.

Now ALL of that might be true. There's a chance I'm wrong. But the elephant in the room surely has to be why the eminently more plausible and rational explanation of: "Vince changed his mind" is rarely countenanced in favour of what is undeniably a fairly elaborate re-imagining of events that you have to undertake to argue the opposite. 

Bret was loyal above all else, he never had a problem losing the title. If Vince has to lie or annoy one of them, it's gonna be Bret. Did he even realy change plans at all, or was he just placating Bret this whole time?

As for time spent promoting Yokozuna, Yoko was always the means to the end. Yoko was never booked strong in matches past KOTR 93. 2 years before, they spent time and money promoting undertaker right to the title scene, only to pull him away from the main event post RR92 a few months later. So it's not like there's no previous grounds to think same could happen again.

Luger was certainly a last minute change. But I could ask you the same question, you're saying Hulk was originally supposed to win via countout and remain champion? Or having lost it at KOTR, merely gain a countout victory?? He was supposed to tour using the Lex Express? So he beats yoko, yoko beats him and then he slams yoko and beats him again at Summerslam? Then supposed to continue into the all American SuSe 93?
This sounds illogical, over a final passing the torch moment to Bret Hart. That way you have the rematch scenario setup with Yoko who beat him before still. Remember he passed the torch the year before, now it's time for his Summerslam moment.


At any rate, it's easy now to look over things. At the time if you're Bret and you're told it's you vs Hogan at SuSl, that's what you roll with. You dont keep questioning Vince telling him that's stupid for his USS Intrepid plans, because that keeps you yourself out of the title scene.
Vince has never minded hotshotting titles to get to where he wants.
If Vince is lying to you, well it's Vince again. If Hogan got things changed, that's a whole other story.