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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 2, 2019 18:32:53 GMT -5
Awful. Cena's one of the last legit stars and even he is starting to incorporate this "i know it's fake too" forth wall shit in his act. Funny don't draw money guys You know the Rock is one of the most profitable stars the company ever had... and he got over mostly doing comedy stuff. Ditto Dorky Kurt Angle, and Mick Foley, and Edge... And a host of other main event stars. Also, the Rock’s most famous finisher is a move where he does a bit of theatrics before dropping an elbow on his prone opponent. |
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Jan 2, 2019 18:53:07 GMT -5
so he's turned full pokemon now? |
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 2, 2019 19:09:29 GMT -5
That video makes it slightly more tolerable, or rather would if we ever got this on TV, but we won't. At Super Showdown we got Cole being all smarky "HERE IT IS THE 6TH MOVE OF DOOM!",I have zero faith in this being presented as anything other than a meme spot. And honestly, even if it was it just still doesn't work for me. It just...yeah. It grates on me as a spot. And for the record- I used to really like Chikara, so it's not even that I automatically don't like comedic spots in wrestling. And I've done martial arts for about half my life, so it's not like I'm unaware that in a shoot fight, one punch with proper technique can KO somebody. But in the theatre that is wrestling, it doesn't work for me, for John Cena. I could actually buy it for an Alistair Black more than Cena, because the presentation would be different and story to it would be much more apparent.But hey there we are. For people who like the spot more power to them. But for me it's just another in a long list of little things that reminds me why WWE isn't really for me.
And that's really that's all that needs to be said.
You've been conditioned by the WWE to believe that Cena, even when he trains in Jackie Chan's Shanghai Training Center for months with masters and students can't do something like this. The final line about it not being for you is of course your opinion but that says everything.
Firstly- this 'training for months with martial arts masters' has once again not yet made it to TV or the way this is being presented. It is being presented as "Lol the 6th move of doom guys, wink wink". Secondly- I've not "been conditioned by WWE to believe" anything. John Cena has never been portrayed as a master striker, or martial arts expert, or anything along those lines, so again it's entirely incongruous with the John Cena we have seen for 16 years on that kayfabe level. That's not conditioning, that's the character. It's like when he suddenly started busting out Indy Moves in his US open matches with no real structure or psychology to them and it's just presented as oh yeah this is John Cena now. Or like if Lince Dorado was suddenly chokeslamming and powerbombing guys because according to WWE.com he trained with Sid for a few weeks. Characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used. Please, stop trying to make me like this shtick, or make out that I'm somehow easily-led and conditioned by WWE if I point out why I think this does not work on the basis of past programming- that's not conditioning that's narrative consistency. As I said, more power to people who do like it, I'm not talking down their opinion, if they buy into it or dig the presentation cool, but for me personally it is a very jarring, abrupt, and obnoxiously-presented change. |
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Post by Hurbster on Jan 2, 2019 19:31:20 GMT -5
Wow, people get upset over the smallest of things. Does it really matter or is it just another excuse to have a go at WWE ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 19:49:39 GMT -5
And that's really that's all that needs to be said.
You've been conditioned by the WWE to believe that Cena, even when he trains in Jackie Chan's Shanghai Training Center for months with masters and students can't do something like this. The final line about it not being for you is of course your opinion but that says everything.
Firstly- this 'training for months with martial arts masters' has once again not yet made it to TV or the way this is being presented. It is being presented as "Lol the 6th move of doom guys, wink wink".
Secondly- I've not "been conditioned by WWE to believe" anything. John Cena has never been portrayed as a master striker, or martial arts expert, or anything along those lines, so again it's entirely incongruous with the John Cena we have seen for 16 years on that kayfabe level. That's not conditioning, that's the character. It's like when he suddenly started busting out Indy Moves in his US open matches with no real structure or psychology to them and it's just presented as oh yeah this is John Cena now. Or like if Lince Dorado was suddenly chokeslamming and powerbombing guys because according to WWE.com he trained with Sid for a few weeks. Characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used.Please, stop trying to make me like this shtick, or make out that I'm somehow easily-led and conditioned by WWE if I point out why I think this does not work on the basis of past programming- that's not conditioning that's narrative consistency. As I said, more power to people who do like it, I'm not talking down their opinion, if they buy into it or dig the presentation cool, but for me personally it is a very jarring, abrupt, and obnoxiously-presented change. Cena in the video I linked was describing the move in a serious way. Yeah he used the "Sixth Move of Doom" comment but he was clearly being serious when he described how he learned it. You can critique the announcers on how they described the move or you can critique Cena in how he learned it. The same announcers use the same delivery with every single finisher from any face superstar whether it's seen as a match ender, a joke move or even a random move, it never changes. You can say "well they said Sixth Move of Doom" all you want but the reality is Cena himself said that as a joke but when he described how it came to he had a serious tone. Had it been all "hey guys it's a joke hahahaha" then Cena wouldn't be serious when describing Jackie Chan's training center nor the masters. That's not a joke. Those people, the center and those methods aren't a joke to him.
As to the next thing you've said...but you have been conditioned by the WWE to believe this, that's literally what this is. Through the years of you seeing Cena based on how he's been portrayed most of the time you have an idea of what you think he can do and what he can't do. You have an idea of what is "John Cena." When Cena here, even when he trains in Jackie Chan's Training Center with martial arts masters, says he gained this ability that throws off what you believe and considering the idea of "well this is John Cena" is so embedded in your mind that throws it off. The WWE conditioning towards who John Cena is to you has caused you to believe this. It's no different with the conditioning of believing people will kick out of the first AA these days. It's become a trend within these past 4 years enough for us to know that's probably not going to end the match. That's conditioning. It's no different with the conditioning of believing a big star appearing in a Royal Rumble is probably going to be called "the favorite" by the announcers and will have a spot where everyone teams up on them and fails. That's conditioning. You even saying "he's never been portrayed as a master striker, martial arts expert of anything along those lines" is conditioning. You even say "that's the character" without understanding that their conditioning has given you the idea that's what the character of John Cena is.
Even you bringing up him using Code Reds and Springboard Stunners during his 2015 US Title run's an example of conditioning. They've conditioning the fans with the idea that Cena isn't a guy that does those kinds of moves so when he started using it everyone popped and was surprised. Even though they said Cena had been working on some new moves before the matches, even though Cena said he's got some surprises in store, fans were conditioning to the point that they couldn't imagine Cena pulling moves like that off.
What I underlined is the big point here though. You saying "characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used" is your own opinion but at the end of the day that doesn't apply to everyone. To others though? They can see Cena's video and say "ok he trained with Jackie Chan's people for months in Shanghai, he can do this now" and that's it. It's not throwing their disbelief off because it's justification towards that. The guy's rarely here, we've seen numerous videos of him in China, speaking on Jackie Chan and his training, he comes back with something new. It's no different than any character in a series that goes away for a bit and comes back with something new in their arsenal. Manga/anime, videogames, other forms of fiction, movies, it happens all the time.
But the thing is you think it's not "earned" because of WWE's conditioning towards Cena.
You're free to think that. It's your opinion. On that same token it makes perfect sense to a great amount of people.
Lastly, you said "please, stop trying to make me like this shtick"...bruh...you responded to me first. I wasn't talking to you and you responded with a 3 paragraph response and you said it didn't make sense as to why he can suddenly do it and in turn I linked a video with Cena explaining why he can do it. I'm not trying to make you like it but if you respond to me with questions I'm going to respond back like I responded back. I don't care that you don't like it, all the power to you and even in each post I said it's ok you don't like it. What you don't need to do however is try to act like those who are ok with it aren't ok with their opinion. I straight up explained why I liked it and you responded to me as if I shouldn't and as if I don't know what I was talking about when it was my opinion. If you don't like my opinion then don't like it but don't try to act like people don't understand story context and plot just because it's not enough for you but it is for them.
We've seen numerous stars do different things out of nowhere in wrestling that people don't say a thing towards but in this case it throws it off for you. You're free to not like that.
But don't act like people who do like it don't understand what's going on. That's a problem and it's not respecting others viewpoints.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 20:57:21 GMT -5
I greatly dislike the Lightning Fist.
The thing with that, compared to like, the Worm, Peoples' Elbow, Mr. Socko, is at least those moves are aesthetically pleasing. The Lighting Fist isn't even really fun to watch him execute it, it's really sloppy looking. No Way Jose's baseball pitch punch is even better than it.
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Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
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Post by Lupin the Third on Jan 2, 2019 21:31:43 GMT -5
He wishes his Lightning Fist was like this....
Or this...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 21:46:37 GMT -5
I love it. He should break Flairs record at mania with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 21:58:35 GMT -5
Eh, it’s a joke move. I could care less about it or not lmao
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 2, 2019 23:26:10 GMT -5
It's like when he suddenly started busting out Indy Moves in his US open matches with no real structure or psychology to them and it's just presented as oh yeah this is John Cena now. Or like if Lince Dorado was suddenly chokeslamming and powerbombing guys because according to WWE.com he trained with Sid for a few weeks. Characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used. I never understood the criticism of Cena's US Title matches. I thought he did a really good job with his new moveset... the announcers made a big deal about how he was adding new moves to keep up with the young guys he was fighting, and he 'acted' them really well in his matches. I thought he did a much better job there with the typical 'WWE style,' kickout-centric match, because there were at least interesting things he showed with his acting, like when he was feigning confidence but secretly afraid he'd get surpassed by these kids. Anyway, I think you're far overstating how jarring a single new punching finishing move is. |
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 3, 2019 2:55:18 GMT -5
Firstly- this 'training for months with martial arts masters' has once again not yet made it to TV or the way this is being presented. It is being presented as "Lol the 6th move of doom guys, wink wink".
Secondly- I've not "been conditioned by WWE to believe" anything. John Cena has never been portrayed as a master striker, or martial arts expert, or anything along those lines, so again it's entirely incongruous with the John Cena we have seen for 16 years on that kayfabe level. That's not conditioning, that's the character. It's like when he suddenly started busting out Indy Moves in his US open matches with no real structure or psychology to them and it's just presented as oh yeah this is John Cena now. Or like if Lince Dorado was suddenly chokeslamming and powerbombing guys because according to WWE.com he trained with Sid for a few weeks. Characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used.Please, stop trying to make me like this shtick, or make out that I'm somehow easily-led and conditioned by WWE if I point out why I think this does not work on the basis of past programming- that's not conditioning that's narrative consistency. As I said, more power to people who do like it, I'm not talking down their opinion, if they buy into it or dig the presentation cool, but for me personally it is a very jarring, abrupt, and obnoxiously-presented change. Cena in the video I linked was describing the move in a serious way. Yeah he used the "Sixth Move of Doom" comment but he was clearly being serious when he described how he learned it. You can critique the announcers on how they described the move or you can critique Cena in how he learned it. The same announcers use the same delivery with every single finisher from any face superstar whether it's seen as a match ender, a joke move or even a random move, it never changes. You can say "well they said Sixth Move of Doom" all you want but the reality is Cena himself said that as a joke but when he described how it came to he had a serious tone. Had it been all "hey guys it's a joke hahahaha" then Cena wouldn't be serious when describing Jackie Chan's training center nor the masters. That's not a joke. Those people, the center and those methods aren't a joke to him.
As to the next thing you've said...but you have been conditioned by the WWE to believe this, that's literally what this is. Through the years of you seeing Cena based on how he's been portrayed most of the time you have an idea of what you think he can do and what he can't do. You have an idea of what is "John Cena." When Cena here, even when he trains in Jackie Chan's Training Center with martial arts masters, says he gained this ability that throws off what you believe and considering the idea of "well this is John Cena" is so embedded in your mind that throws it off. The WWE conditioning towards who John Cena is to you has caused you to believe this. It's no different with the conditioning of believing people will kick out of the first AA these days. It's become a trend within these past 4 years enough for us to know that's probably not going to end the match. That's conditioning. It's no different with the conditioning of believing a big star appearing in a Royal Rumble is probably going to be called "the favorite" by the announcers and will have a spot where everyone teams up on them and fails. That's conditioning. You even saying "he's never been portrayed as a master striker, martial arts expert of anything along those lines" is conditioning. You even say "that's the character" without understanding that their conditioning has given you the idea that's what the character of John Cena is.
Even you bringing up him using Code Reds and Springboard Stunners during his 2015 US Title run's an example of conditioning. They've conditioning the fans with the idea that Cena isn't a guy that does those kinds of moves so when he started using it everyone popped and was surprised. Even though they said Cena had been working on some new moves before the matches, even though Cena said he's got some surprises in store, fans were conditioning to the point that they couldn't imagine Cena pulling moves like that off.
What I underlined is the big point here though. You saying "characters suddenly changing isn't character growth or development, it's jarring as hell, it doesn't feel earned, and crucially- the in-story justification against this being a comedy bit isn't getting used" is your own opinion but at the end of the day that doesn't apply to everyone. To others though? They can see Cena's video and say "ok he trained with Jackie Chan's people for months in Shanghai, he can do this now" and that's it. It's not throwing their disbelief off because it's justification towards that. The guy's rarely here, we've seen numerous videos of him in China, speaking on Jackie Chan and his training, he comes back with something new. It's no different than any character in a series that goes away for a bit and comes back with something new in their arsenal. Manga/anime, videogames, other forms of fiction, movies, it happens all the time.
But the thing is you think it's not "earned" because of WWE's conditioning towards Cena.
You're free to think that. It's your opinion. On that same token it makes perfect sense to a great amount of people.
Lastly, you said "please, stop trying to make me like this shtick"...bruh...you responded to me first. I wasn't talking to you and you responded with a 3 paragraph response and you said it didn't make sense as to why he can suddenly do it and in turn I linked a video with Cena explaining why he can do it. I'm not trying to make you like it but if you respond to me with questions I'm going to respond back like I responded back. I don't care that you don't like it, all the power to you and even in each post I said it's ok you don't like it. What you don't need to do however is try to act like those who are ok with it aren't ok with their opinion. I straight up explained why I liked it and you responded to me as if I shouldn't and as if I don't know what I was talking about when it was my opinion. If you don't like my opinion then don't like it but don't try to act like people don't understand story context and plot just because it's not enough for you but it is for them.
We've seen numerous stars do different things out of nowhere in wrestling that people don't say a thing towards but in this case it throws it off for you. You're free to not like that.
But don't act like people who do like it don't understand what's going on. That's a problem and it's not respecting others viewpoints.
I'm sorry if I came across like I wasn't respecting your opinion- that wasn't my intent at all. I repeatedly said that anyone who likes it, fair enough more power to them, just for me it is not good storytelling or to my tastes, and put across why. I had hoped I had made it clear that I wasn't meaning to run down others' opinions, but evidently I didn't. Apologies for that. Again as I've said before- if this explanation gets used more on TV and brought up more in the show, or it had been a more gradual development and was presented differently on TV, then that would improve this for me, but as of right now, you're correct that one video on WWE.com isn't enough for me to suspend my disbelief compared to what we've seen of Cena for years. I guess we're best agreeing to disagree on this particular bit, but apologies again, I'm not meaning any disrespect when I say fair play to anyone who does like it. I'm a wrestling fan, I WANT to like WWE because it's far and away the easiest & most affordable product for me to access, it's why I keep coming back even though I can't remember when I last actually sat through a full episode of Raw or Smackdown. No disrespect meant whatsoever- I would love to enjoy WWE as much as a lot of people do. |
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Jan 3, 2019 21:48:33 GMT -5
I greatly dislike the Lightning Fist. The thing with that, compared to like, the Worm, Peoples' Elbow, Mr. Socko, is at least those moves are aesthetically pleasing. The Lighting Fist isn't even really fun to watch him execute it, it's really sloppy looking. No Way Jose's baseball pitch punch is even better than it. That's my main problem with it. It looks like it has no actual impact. That, and that backfist was basically Sting's go-to strike. It's like if someone suddenly started trying to use a knife edge chop as a finish. If he just keeps using it after the AA, like a sort of "insult to injury" thing, then it's fine. If he's actually going to beat people with it, he needs to tighten that shit up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 22:05:01 GMT -5
Is it any worse than the Cobra? Or half the shit you see on the indys these days?
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Jan 3, 2019 22:39:38 GMT -5
Is it any worse than the Cobra? Or half the shit you see on the indys these days? A few things about that: 1. Santino has legit martial arts experience, which Cena does not. Santino would actually know how and where to hit someone to make that work. 2. Santino was a comedy jobber, who beat other jobbers and midcarders with his comedy finisher. 3. Santino always hit the Cobra clean, right in the collarbone area, and with enough force behind it that, even if it wasn't his finish, he could make you believe that he might actually do some damage. Cena's Lightning Fist has no weight or force behind it, and it looks like he's barely touching them. ... I think I might have just convinced myself that Santino could've made the Lightning Fist work. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 23:15:27 GMT -5
Tbh if I can handle giant dicks coming down the aisle then I think I can handle a non serious move.
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Chainsaw
T
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It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Jan 3, 2019 23:27:45 GMT -5
Cena for all perpetuity:  |
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jan 3, 2019 23:59:34 GMT -5
Is it any worse than the Cobra? Or half the shit you see on the indys these days? A few things about that: 1. Santino has legit martial arts experience, which Cena does not. Santino would actually know how and where to hit someone to make that work. 2. Santino was a comedy jobber, who beat other jobbers and midcarders with his comedy finisher. 3. Santino always hit the Cobra clean, right in the collarbone area, and with enough force behind it that, even if it wasn't his finish, he could make you believe that he might actually do some damage. Cena's Lightning Fist has no weight or force behind it, and it looks like he's barely touching them. ... I think I might have just convinced myself that Santino could've made the Lightning Fist work. He never had any actual martial arts training in kayfabe, he was a goof who was in training but got picked out of the crowd to face Umaga by pure luck. He then almost got a 2.9 count for the WHC in an Elimination Chamber with the move, and if he won I don't think anyone would have complained. I'm not a huge fan of the move, but it won't be used in a serious fashion. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2019 9:29:41 GMT -5
A few things about that: 1. Santino has legit martial arts experience, which Cena does not. Santino would actually know how and where to hit someone to make that work. 2. Santino was a comedy jobber, who beat other jobbers and midcarders with his comedy finisher. 3. Santino always hit the Cobra clean, right in the collarbone area, and with enough force behind it that, even if it wasn't his finish, he could make you believe that he might actually do some damage. Cena's Lightning Fist has no weight or force behind it, and it looks like he's barely touching them. ... I think I might have just convinced myself that Santino could've made the Lightning Fist work. He never had any actual martial arts training in kayfabe, he was a goof who was in training but got picked out of the crowd to face Umaga by pure luck. He then almost got a 2.9 count for the WHC in an Elimination Chamber with the move, and if he won I don't think anyone would have complained. I'm not a huge fan of the move, but it won't be used in a serious fashion. The Cobra seriously must have been one of the better protected finishers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 16:55:21 GMT -5
I hate “comedy” finishers.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 4, 2019 17:05:47 GMT -5
Of the New England Rim?
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