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Post by sunnytaker on Feb 12, 2019 9:35:16 GMT -5
Yeah, sure, it makes sense. That doesn't mean it's worth doing. I'm sick to f***ing death of Charlotte being crowbarred into EVERYTHING. And yes, I realize that's the story being told. Sure. But that doesn't make it any less frustrating to have Nepotism: The Wrestler crowbarred into every single thing in this division that catches the slightest bit of momentum. Particularly given there is zero novelty in Charlotte / Becky / ______ anymore because they've faced seemingly every woman in the company who at all matters (and Carmella) in one at some point, on top of their trillion matches with each other. It's worn out and it's tired. in charlotte's defense- whenever someone says "HISTORIC women's moment" three times she magically has to appear. it's a rule or something. but yeah throwing charlotte into the mix makes me less interested in the match now. it'd be like rocky vs clubber lang but now a triple threat with Apollo Creed thrown in because of his history with rocky and clubber's average-ish promo skills and Apollo always got the spotlight while rocky had to scratch his way up to the top from the bottom before a brief title reign.
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Post by RedSmile on Feb 12, 2019 10:04:29 GMT -5
I just don't understand some of the takes here.
"Charlotte is needed in this match to add a heel presence"
-Ronda is getting booed against Becky, she's gonna be treated like the heel whether they like it or not.
"Charlotte is a great wrestler, that should be enough reason"
-So is Becky. Becky is good enough to carry this if Ronda starts to lose her way. Also, this match doesn't need to be Omega/Okada-esque epic, it needs to be a fight. A fight that Becky wins. And you have a the rest of a 12 damn hour show that could use a Charlotte somewhere down the card.
"It's a red herring and they are going to have Charlotte lose at Fastlane"
-That's really lame booking. If Charlotte is going to be out of the match, then they need to spend the time building whatever match/feud she is going to have, instead of wasting both her, and Becky's, time and burning through another match. And they've had several one-on-one matches already, maybe we shouldn't be in a hurry to burn through another one. Save Becky/Charlotte for after Mania, when Ronda is out of the picture. Is it too much to ask for long term booking?
"Charlotte adds much needed star presence"
-If Becky Lynch vs. Ronda frickin' Rousey in the main event of Wrestle-f***in'-mania isn't enough, then that is a problem way beyond Charlotte to fix.
"The storyline dictates it"
-It's pro wrestling. They can write whatever story they want.
"Because they're going to have Charlotte win"
-If you want to risk cooling off Becky, go right ahead and do just that.
"Because they want you to FEAR Charlotte winning"
-No. That was the Rumble storyline, and now they should make you fear Ronda winning and pulling a Brock Lesnar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 10:46:03 GMT -5
Lemme help out a bit. I just don't understand some of the takes here. "Charlotte is needed in this match to add a heel presence" -Ronda is getting booed against Becky, she's gonna be treated like the heel whether they like it or not. Which is why you get Charlotte in the match to be the defacto heel. There's no way that Ronda was going to remain a face if it was her and Becky so you throw Charlotte in there to at least be the heel who takes most of the bullets and by proxy when Ronda attacks Charlotte she gets more cheers than boos. It keeps Ronda a face and in this case she'll be booed less given all of the heat isn't on her. Given they want to keep Ronda a face, it makes sense and given Ronda cannot handle the boos it allows her to work at her best which is by having most of the crowd against Charlotte. As we've seen these past few months Ronda has been trash going against Becky so having that continue into WM wasn't going to cut it.
It's fun for those who love Becky, to see Ronda not do well on the mic and get embarrassed constantly, to see her get less and less cheers against Becky, for the feud to be completely one-sided but from a booking standpoint that's trash booking because all it does is make Becky better. It's like the Roman Reigns thing all over again except people like Becky. That doesn't excuse the fact that nobody else looks good against her. You're basically setting Ronda (your most mainstream star right now) up to get cut down in favor of someone who's not doing any numbers for you. That's not smart.
Nah, Becky's wrestling style isn't "big match" enough to pull off a match like this after that many hours of wrestling. Charlotte's got more moves that pop to get the crowd into the match. Becky's just not that kind of wrestler. As for being a great wrestler yeah she's great but she doesn't have the style to pull off something like this with just her and Ronda. Besides that Charlotte in the match has chemistry with both so it helps relieve the work in the match so this way the crowd will be into everything they do rather than being bored that late into the game. Yeah, Charlotte is a great wrestler and she'll help the match and do things that won't happen in a Becky/Ronda match after that many hours of wrestling.
Secondly, you saying it doesn't need to be "Omega/Okada-esque epic" and all that, man they're trying to make this match as epic as possible. They can't throw a "ok, it was cool" match at the end of this ppv. They can't do that.
Nah, not happening. Becky and Charlotte are going to be separated post-WM. They gotta use this "women's main eventing WM" thing to help both brands out rather than just one which is one reason why Charlotte's in the match. If it's just Ronda/Becky then only Raw gets a bump while SDL looks like trash still. In this case you can throw Charlotte at Asuka given Charlotte main evented a WM and it helps everyone out.
Becky isn't moving the needle so you need more to make up for that. Yeah it's not her fault but it is what it is. Secondly when people say "Becky/Ronda isn't enough for a main event" it's less about "star presence" but more about this feud in general. Ronda sucks at promos and social media so you need someone to help with that which is what Charlotte's good for. Ronda isn't a heel so you need someone to be the heel to help out here. Ronda doesn't need to be damaged constantly on social media so you throw Charlotte in to take those bullets. Becky and Ronda's styles aren't hype enough after that many hours of wrestling at the end of the night so you need someone's style to not only give it an extra umph but someone to help these women out in the ring to make the match great which is what Charlotte is good for. They're promoting this thing as the first time women main event a WM. From a booking perspective Ronda's easy to market but Becky? The girl who's only been getting hot these past few months? Even from a casual "we only watch WM" perspective they know who Charlotte is. It's just more in a package than without.
You're missing the point of me saying that. Of course they can write whatever story they want, that's not the point. The point is that the storyline was heading in that direction and there were multiple signs of it. You don't have to like it, you can hate it but that comment wasn't about your opinion of the storyline. It's about the fact that yeah it could be seen. If you agree it could be seen "but you still don't like it" then hey, that's what I'm saying. So you're saying they need to do the "Lesnar Model" on Ronda now? That's a bad storyline and one people aren't going to believe. Nah, the "Charlotte is going to beat Becky" thing has been around since that Summerslam match they've had.
They're pretty consistent.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 10:51:35 GMT -5
Becky is probably going to win, but that doesn’t mean adding Charlotte is a good decision.
They clearly wanted Charlotte/Ronda to headline before Becky took off and changed plans, but circumstances have changed and the WWE should have changed with it. Unfortunately they don’t do things that way.
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Post by RedSmile on Feb 12, 2019 11:10:18 GMT -5
Becky is probably going to win, but that doesn’t mean adding Charlotte is a good decision. They clearly wanted Charlotte/Ronda to headline before Becky took off and changed plans, but circumstances have changed and the WWE should have changed with it. Unfortunately they don’t do things that way. They can't fathom the idea of Charlotte not being one of the first women to main event Wrestlemania.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 12, 2019 11:16:54 GMT -5
As I said before and i'm going keep a full buck i'm not all that interested in Ronda/Becky without Charlotte
Sure the crowd was hot for week 1 but imo this was a good add
From the wrestling perspective Charlotte has beef with both Ronda and Becky and obviously Charlotte/Becky have a ton of chemistry. Charlotte is your insurance just in case shit goes left with Ronda in terms of her getting flustered at Mania
As I said already if Becky don't win i'll chug a bottle of Henny as I don't see her losing and if she does y'all can bitch & moan as much as you want
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Feb 12, 2019 11:26:18 GMT -5
Lemme help out a bit. I just don't understand some of the takes here. "Charlotte is needed in this match to add a heel presence" -Ronda is getting booed against Becky, she's gonna be treated like the heel whether they like it or not. Which is why you get Charlotte in the match to be the defacto heel. There's no way that Ronda was going to remain a face if it was her and Becky so you throw Charlotte in there to at least be the heel who takes most of the bullets and by proxy when Ronda attacks Charlotte she gets more cheers than boos. It keeps Ronda a face and in this case she'll be booed less given all of the heat isn't on her. Given they want to keep Ronda a face, it makes sense and given Ronda cannot handle the boos it allows her to work at her best which is by having most of the crowd against Charlotte. As we've seen these past few months Ronda has been trash going against Becky so having that continue into WM wasn't going to cut it. It's fun for those who love Becky, to see Ronda not do well on the mic and get embarrassed constantly, to see her get less and less cheers against Becky, for the feud to be completely one-sided but from a booking standpoint that's trash booking because all it does is make Becky better. It's like the Roman Reigns thing all over again except people like Becky. That doesn't excuse the fact that nobody else looks good against her. You're basically setting Ronda (your most mainstream star right now) up to get cut down in favor of someone who's not doing any numbers for you. That's not smart.
Ronda is already the heel. If your argument is Ronda can't wrestle with boos I have to call foul on that. Additionally, Charlotte makes both look weaker if they win against her. If Ronda doesn't take the pin or sub then Beckys entire story is thrown in the toilet for the sake of dragging her into another feud with Charlotte.
Nah, Becky's wrestling style isn't "big match" enough to pull off a match like this after that many hours of wrestling. Charlotte's got more moves that pop to get the crowd into the match. Becky's just not that kind of wrestler. As for being a great wrestler yeah she's great but she doesn't have the style to pull off something like this with just her and Ronda. Besides that Charlotte in the match has chemistry with both so it helps relieve the work in the match so this way the crowd will be into everything they do rather than being bored that late into the game. Yeah, Charlotte is a great wrestler and she'll help the match and do things that won't happen in a Becky/Ronda match after that many hours of wrestling.
Secondly, you saying it doesn't need to be "Omega/Okada-esque epic" and all that, man they're trying to make this match as epic as possible. They can't throw a "ok, it was cool" match at the end of this ppv. They can't do that.
Two women who have been booked as the baddest bitch going at it Tyson/Holyfield isn't big match enough for you? Do you really think slapping in a tired Charlotte top rope moonsault and suicide dive spam is really going to 5 star it? The fans would leave very happy with a physical brawl that *gasp* maybe could have a little color in it.Nah, not happening. Becky and Charlotte are going to be separated post-WM. They gotta use this "women's main eventing WM" thing to help both brands out rather than just one which is one reason why Charlotte's in the match. If it's just Ronda/Becky then only Raw gets a bump while SDL looks like trash still. In this case you can throw Charlotte at Asuka given Charlotte main evented a WM and it helps everyone out.
Becky isn't moving the needle so you need more to make up for that. Yeah it's not her fault but it is what it is. Secondly when people say "Becky/Ronda isn't enough for a main event" it's less about "star presence" but more about this feud in general. Ronda sucks at promos and social media so you need someone to help with that which is what Charlotte's good for. Ronda isn't a heel so you need someone to be the heel to help out here. Ronda doesn't need to be damaged constantly on social media so you throw Charlotte in to take those bullets. Becky and Ronda's styles aren't hype enough after that many hours of wrestling at the end of the night so you need someone's style to not only give it an extra umph but someone to help these women out in the ring to make the match great which is what Charlotte is good for. They're promoting this thing as the first time women main event a WM. From a booking perspective Ronda's easy to market but Becky? The girl who's only been getting hot these past few months? Even from a casual "we only watch WM" perspective they know who Charlotte is. It's just more in a package than without.
Becky isn't moving the needle?..ok, We are watching two different shows and frankly, I call bullshit on that.You're missing the point of me saying that. Of course they can write whatever story they want, that's not the point. The point is that the storyline was heading in that direction and there were multiple signs of it. You don't have to like it, you can hate it but that comment wasn't about your opinion of the storyline. It's about the fact that yeah it could be seen. If you agree it could be seen "but you still don't like it" then hey, that's what I'm saying. No. the story was never headed that way at all. The story was in the direction of Becky vs the Authority and not wanting to cater to the because she badly wanted to fight. Instead of giving her some kind of iron clad gimmick way to WM they cucked her into an apology and then using one of those big giant plastic baseball bats crammed Charlotte into this.So you're saying they need to do the "Lesnar Model" on Ronda now? That's a bad storyline and one people aren't going to believe. Nah, the "Charlotte is going to beat Becky" thing has been around since that Summerslam match they've had.
They're pretty consistent.
Pretty consistent in the narrtive of nepotism? Sure are.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Feb 12, 2019 11:32:50 GMT -5
I don't understand why Charlotte has to be in everything. That's my bottom line.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 11:37:15 GMT -5
My biggest gripe about all this is that it's a way out for Ronda to leave without ever losing clean.
As in, she can't bear the thought of taking a pinfall or a submission that they have to drag in another person to do the job.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Feb 12, 2019 11:44:25 GMT -5
My biggest gripe about all this is that it's a way out for Ronda to leave without ever losing clean. As in, she can't bear the thought of taking a pinfall or a submission that they have to drag in another person to do the job. I swear it feels like Seth's cash in. Where Lesnar still got to say he didn't lose and walk away
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Feb 12, 2019 11:46:50 GMT -5
It's their first one which is why they don't want half of the Its technically and per the official WWE history books the second. Charlotte vs Asuka was billed as a main event. Regardless the money match was Becky vs Ronda. Adding Charlotte as talented as she is takes away from it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 12, 2019 11:50:00 GMT -5
So speaking from the outside looking in, I think it makes sense for people to be of two co-existing minds about this: 1. A Becky/Ronda/Charlotte match would likely be very good. I'd also say that Becky would be the odds-on favorite to win. Charlotte going off the rails because of the whole Becky situation the past few months is solid character work. All of that is fine. 2. At the same time, it's frustrating that WWE doesn't seem to ever really trust that wrestlers can sell a wrestling match, and always need to add various detours on the way to the fireworks factory that ultimately detract from the overall experience. When pro wrestling is at its best, the whole "shades of grey" concept ends up working incredibly well...not because you're writing tweeners who are largely unlikeable or something like that, but it means you're writing/booking two fleshed out, developed characters, giving them believable motivations, and then tossing them together to see how their personalities will play off one another. There's a great art to that, and on its own it seems like Lynch vs. Rousey could pull that off. Adding the McMahons, adding Charlotte, none of them in and of themselves are inherently bad things, but they do detract from the main attraction of a wrestling card: "Come and see these two stars tear one another apart over the following reasons." Now, maybe this all results in Charlotte being bounced from the match before Mania, so that could end up being decent booking, but as a company WWE needs to work more at developing personalities and then, when they finally have pulled it off (as they have with Becky), then let those personalities clash and allow that conflict to dictate the storytelling and psychology of the feud and the eventual match. Adding too much more becomes a bunch of white noise, if you're not careful. My read on observing online commentary here and elsewhere is that many people weren't really excited about Becky/Ronda because they were excited for both of them. They just wanted Becky to beat her, and for no one else to get any limelight, even getting annoyed at the possibility of Becky showing weakness at any point. Which is fine, but while a build based around Becky no-selling Ronda's promos and 'owning' her on Twitter time after time makes Becky look good, its not really the most compelling narrative for the shows as a whole, and ignores how WWE in November and December were throwing clear hints at this being a three-way story. And given Raw highlighted how they basically want to use Becky in a Roman Reigns role (she was on screen in what, 6 or 7 segments?), there needs to be more to the story to make that work until Mania rather than burning out somewhere along the way. And now that dissonance with Becky complaining about being 'held back' but really being the strongest booked star in the company doesn't apply, she has genuine cause to feel like she's been screwed, and that gives her more to fight for.
I also think it needs to be highlighted how genuinely historic this feud is. There's been big women's feuds before, but there has never been one that was this grand arc spanning both shows every week. Even Seth/Brock is being treated like an afterthought by comparison.
And if the crowd is united around Becky, that's fine; the crowd in Japan was pretty united behind Hiroshi Tanahashi at this year's Wrestle Kingdom main event despite Kenny Omega mostly working babyface before that feud, but the allure of the match was still the clash of personalities/philosophies/styles between the two men, and the match and story were both better off for focusing on that, plus Omega tweaked his game plan to work a bit more heel to play to the crowd's desire to see Tanahashi win. Just so, there's no reason why they can't do that with Ronda; allow the crowd's desire to see Becky win dictate some of the storytelling, allow Ronda's character to play off those reactions in some way, do something interesting with it to shape the eventual match. Basically, allow the characters to interact organically, listen to the reactions they draw, make some minor adjustments accordingly, but keep the focus on "these two strong personalities/characters/fighters are on a collision course, and their showdown will be shaped by their motivations and personalities." If overusing Becky on TV will hurt that storytelling then, well...don't overuse Becky. Mania is eight damn hours already, there are plenty of stories to tell on the endless hours of WWE programming. I'll also admit I just kind of have a bias against three-way matches; they're not all bad, obviously, but it's one of those gimmicks that I wish only happened when it feels like there's a really legitimately good reason to book it, for the sake of the story. Too often they leave hanging threads, where somebody wins but only by defeating one opponent, so it doesn't feel nearly as definitive an ending.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Feb 12, 2019 11:57:38 GMT -5
Wait a second.
When's the last time Becky had a one on one title match that didn't involve Charlotte?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Feb 12, 2019 12:00:21 GMT -5
Wait a second. When's the last time Becky had a one on one title match that didn't involve Charlotte? ..vs Asuka at the rumble? before that I think it was Carmella or Alexa
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Moppy
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Post by Moppy on Feb 12, 2019 12:00:22 GMT -5
My biggest gripe about all this is that it's a way out for Ronda to leave without ever losing clean. As in, she can't bear the thought of taking a pinfall or a submission that they have to drag in another person to do the job. It certainly does leave them that option, yes - however, I don't see Charlotte being involved in the finish. I think Becky will tap Ronda out.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Feb 12, 2019 12:01:32 GMT -5
Take a look. It's in a book. WrestleMania 35. Iiiiiiiiii can do anythingg. Speaking of rainbows, what is Asuka doing for Mania? With Charlotte in the main event and the women's tag titles likely being defended, who is left for her to face? Is Alexa Bliss gonna jump to Smackdown?
Probably Multiwomen match , something like Asuka vs Naomi vs Sonya vs Mandy
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Feb 12, 2019 12:01:34 GMT -5
My biggest gripe about all this is that it's a way out for Ronda to leave without ever losing clean. As in, she can't bear the thought of taking a pinfall or a submission that they have to drag in another person to do the job. I swear it feels like Seth's cash in. Where Lesnar still got to say he didn't lose and walk away Pretty much, Ronda will leave without putting anyone over as better than her.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 12:02:25 GMT -5
As I said before and i'm going keep a full buck i'm not all that interested in Ronda/Becky without Charlotte Sure the crowd was hot for week 1 but imo this was a good add From the wrestling perspective Charlotte has beef with both Ronda and Becky and obviously Charlotte/Becky have a ton of chemistry. Charlotte is your insurance just in case shit goes left with Ronda in terms of her getting flustered at Mania As I said already if Becky don't win i'll chug a bottle of Henny as I don't see her losing and if she does y'all can bitch & moan as much as you want This whole thing's really helped me realize something...Becky's the new Strowman.
Strowman was OP and made everyone else look bad in favor of himself which was good for those who liked him but terrible for everyone else he went up again. Becky's been killing Ronda week in and week out to the point where it's one-sided, she makes everyone look bad on social media, she's just got this level invulnerability that anyone who goes against her gets damaged which is the same issue we had with Strowman but because people love her and all that they're not able to see how it's not helping anyone else. Ronda's been looking worse in this feud. Everyone has been except for one person: Charlotte. Charlotte's taken the bullets but she can go at people on social media, she can rip it in the ring, she can elevate herself so in this type of situation you've got Charlotte being able to go blow for blow and can actually give Becky some type of worry. Yeah, people don't wanna see it but it is what it is. Also like you said Charlotte's there incaseshit. In case shit happens, Charlotte's in the match. In case shit f***s up with the promos, Charlotte's there. In case shit happens with Becky looking too strong, Charlotte's there. In case shit happens and you need someone to help the division out besides Raw, Charlotte's there.
Ronda is already the heel. If your argument is Ronda can't wrestle with boos I have to call foul on that. Additionally, Charlotte makes both look weaker if they win against her. If Ronda doesn't take the pin or sub then Beckys entire story is thrown in the toilet for the sake of dragging her into another feud with Charlotte. Nope. This isn't true.
Ronda was getting cheers last night but regardless it's pretty obvious that from a storyline standpoint Ronda is not a heel. Ronda was seen as on the same playing field as Becky according to Vince. Ronda's promos, comments and everything about her has been a face. The crowd boos her because Becky's getting the shine and anyone who's against Becky is seen "as a heel." As for if my argument is "Ronda can't wrestle with boos" I didn't say that. I said that Ronda sucks being thrown in the fire as we've seen plenty of times. Yeah she can wrestle in it but that's not her best area. She can't take the criticism and this not only goes for the WWE it goes back to her UFC days and even her current social media days. Ronda is best when she's not in that fire so putting her in a feud with Becky where it's been that week in and week out is bad booking because it makes Ronda look like crap and it makes Becky continue to look great. It isn't helping Ronda out.
See, what I've underlined is a big point I'm seeing. I'm speaking on the actual match itself and the future, you're speaking on the booking. Nah bruh, if you want to only care about the feud and not the match then hey we're talking about something else because I'm speaking on the match. Charlotte's moonsaults, spears, her power moves, "whoos", yells, flips, all of that stuff gets the crowd into each match she has and acting like it doesn't and/or acting like it doesn't matter after having the crowd sit there for 23 hours of wrestling is silly. You thinking it needs to be a physical brawl with bleeding (because that's what fans wanna see ala Roman Reigns bleeding at WM and Orton bleeding) is better than something as small as Charlotte's moves? That also doesn't go against anything I said about Charlotte making it better for the others in taking some of the workload off the match. If it takes somebody being busted up in a match for you to care about it compared to Charlotte doing a moonsault then I can see why they threw Charlotte in it compared to leaving Becky like Roman last year.
Not really bullshit man. Alvarez on WON had a 5 min rant about it a few weeks ago stating she's not moving the needle but her fans think she is and they're not accepting of that which is one reason why they're furious when things related to her are brought up. I mean the truth's the truth, she's not doing numbers for the company. Yeah she's their most popular star right now but to say she's moving the needle just isn't true. You can call bullshit on it but hey it is what it is. It's nothing against her given those are the circumstances she's in but hey. If you wanna call him bullshit then call him bullshit. She don't move that needle. You're missing the point of me saying that. Of course they can write whatever story they want, that's not the point. The point is that the storyline was heading in that direction and there were multiple signs of it. You don't have to like it, you can hate it but that comment wasn't about your opinion of the storyline. It's about the fact that yeah it could be seen. If you agree it could be seen "but you still don't like it" then hey, that's what I'm saying. God bless you if you think it wasn't headed that way. You do know the whole reason Charlotte beat Asuka at last year's WM was to face Ronda at this one right? You do know that the whole reason they had Charlotte destroy Ronda after the match is to elevate her for this thing, you do know the reason that Ronda said "this was a warning shot" on social media against the both of them after the ladder push was to continue this...if you don't then you do now. Like, if you didn't see it say you didn't see it but don't act like it wasn't headed this direction and don't act like signs weren't there. You can keep saying Charlotte was shoehorned into this all you want but this has been planned dating back to WM last year when Asuka tapped out. She clearly tapped out for a reason. If you don't wanna agree with it don't agree. If that's what you took from that then God bless you.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Feb 12, 2019 12:02:33 GMT -5
Wait a second. When's the last time Becky had a one on one title match that didn't involve Charlotte? ..vs Asuka at the rumble? before that I think it was Carmella or Alexa True. I didn't think about that cause we all knew she was losing
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Feb 12, 2019 12:03:27 GMT -5
Why does WWE get such a raging hard-on with angles (real and not) that buck against fans?
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