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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:32:06 GMT -5
As far as on screen stuff goes, she's certainly weird on promos but she was doing fine until this Becky Lynch feud got serious. Part of that is because she is not great at it, but even if she was, Lynch is so over with live crowds that just about anyone would look like a shithead when put next to her as a competitive babyface, and even then they're currently in the process of navigating around that with the heel turn. Ronda's been around for a while now, if she was that useless as a television performer, people wouldn't have wanted the singles match in the first place. Like all wrestlers she has her strengths and her weaknesses but her strengths compensated enough to where people believed she and Becky should be main eventing Wrestlemania. I'm admittedly cantankerous when it comes to social media, in wrestling or otherwise, so for the most part I try to stay out of people's hair with this stuff because I know I'm out of touch on this. I'm just surprised in this instance that this has become such a dealbreaker for people. WWE wrestlers cut great promos on the internet all the time but no one really thinks much about it because we all know what happens online barely counts. Ronda and Becky have been goofing off on Twitter for a long time, for a short while people loved it, then it got old, but throughout it all it only mattered so much because WWE never paid any mind to it on TV. I don't see why this is different. The most we're gonna get out of this is Michael Cole going "Ronda's been vocal on social media" or maybe a clipped up version of it so it isn't so kayfabe breaking. The weight people give this stuff is surprising to me because when all is said and done, if this angle fails it's gonna be because of what they're doing on TV (Becky loses at Mania, the next few weeks of build are so atrocious it kills audiences flat, the match sucks), Twitter will be a footnote in that discussion. I don't blame anyone for finding it dumb but as of right now it seems more of an independent dumb thing until we see what WWE does with it. Not trying to tell people what to think or feel but some people seem really angry about this promo and I just question if it's that big a deal?Nah, I gotta disagree with that. You can peep the Sasha feud where Ronda got so thrown off by the boos of the fans that she stumbled and said "alright, you guys got me" and since then it's only increased. I'm not sure about what you mean when you say she was doing fine because by that logic everyone in the company is doing fine given they don't stumble, stutter, I mean even Corbin's doing fine by those regards. If you think everyone's doing fine with carrying their part of the feud related to in-ring promos, small stuff surrounding presentation (we've heard people screaming at Ronda to look hold her title up and what to do etc) then everybody in the company is doing an amazing job and this includes guys like Lashley, Corbin, just the whole roster. I don't think everybody would be horrible against Becky either because that Asuka feud proved otherwise. When it's Charlotte you still get her controlling the crowd, Ronda's the only one who's really this shaken. You're saying that if she was that useless people wouldn't want the single's match but the reality is I've seen people say "nah they don't need to do a single's match prior" to the Rumble match and it's due to everything they've seen. This didn't pop up outta nowhere. It's just increased within these past few weeks given Ronda couldn't handle it.
I'm not surprised that this is a dealbreaker because it goes back to what you just said, it's all social media. Given you're not one who's so deep into social media, it doesn't affect you but to those who are apart of social media it affects them. That might seem ok to you but the reality is this company has been pushing for social media to be apart of the WWE ecosystem for years now and given that we're not supposed to think that social media is a completely separate entity from their main product, it's apart of their product. We see the product include tweets from wrestlers, fans, those backstage, it's just part of it. You're saying WWE has never paid it any mind but the fact is they've paid all of social media mind and that's one reason why it's connected these days. Your idea of "well what happens on tv is the only thing that matters" idea would be true if the company itself wasn't promoting social media as part of the WWE experience. That goes hand and hand with social media being apart of everyone's life. Social media these days is connected to people more than actual live television, it makes sense.
Yeah it's a big deal because social media is part of the WWE ecosystem and programming and has been for these past few years. To you it doesn't matter but it's a different ballgame compared to 1999 as this company's actively pushed for fans to connect the two which makes sense given social media is connected to our lives these days as well.
WWE wanted to use social media as part of their brand to promote their product and to push their storylines? Well they gotta deal with the backlash and that's what's happening.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:43:39 GMT -5
Rousey saying these things illustrates the whole problem with her run thus far, namely that she could obviously destroy pretty much all of the women in WWE in 1 minute. But other than the brief mini feud with the Riott Squad she is out there going 50/50 and selling for a bunch of chicks that she has zero business selling for. Now she's out there ranting about how she could destroy everyone and that WWE is a joke, so it makes her entire run seem lame. It's not helped by the fact that her as this mega destroyer of every woman/baddest woman on the planet was obliterated years ago in her last two fights. Sure, she could best every woman there in an actual fight but the aura of her as this invincible monster hasn't existed since 2016 . Granted it's the same thing with Brock really there I suppose. It's just an odd way to book things really cuz they're totally different skill sets. Say they brought Big Ern, Ernie McCracken from his pro bowling career (and he wasn't fictional), he may be on a gravy train with biscuit wheels at the bowling alley; but he's gettin Munsoned in the middle of nowhere in the wrestling ring cuz it's a different endeavor entirely. Some of the key differences between Brock and Ronda is that a) Brock started in pro wrestling so I think that he has a better understanding of how things are. b)Brock doesn’t give a f*** as long as he’s getting paid top dollar so criticisms don’t bother him, c) Brock has gone back to UFC and had success(granted he’s been popped by the USADA). Ronda has none of that. After Nunes destroyed her Dana wasn’t going to book her anymore as she was horribly exposed. She was obviously instrumental to the rise of women’s MMA and deserves credit for that, but she was really a big fish in an empty pond that was built on Dana’s hype and when more talented women started showing up she had no chance.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 9, 2019 11:52:47 GMT -5
If there’s an embodiment of what’s wrong in WWE now, instead of building up excitement to feuds, we ask if stuff is a work or shoot or not.
Like...I know we use TV and movies as an example and those are different from pro wrestling but at least actors who are working are proud of the stuff they do even if the heads are more focused on making money and building audiences to make more money (which hey, can’t blame them if it works).
The fact we’re asking if Ronda saying “The business is fake and I can beat everyone up” is something she feels or if WWE told her to say it says more about what damage the Monday Night Wars really did to the business 20+ years later.
(Not addressing you, kn, just seeing a hell of a lot of videos on the subject)
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 9, 2019 12:04:24 GMT -5
It's not helped by the fact that her as this mega destroyer of every woman/baddest woman on the planet was obliterated years ago in her last two fights. Sure, she could best every woman there in an actual fight but the aura of her as this invincible monster hasn't existed since 2016 . Granted it's the same thing with Brock really there I suppose. It's just an odd way to book things really cuz they're totally different skill sets. Say they brought Big Ern, Ernie McCracken from his pro bowling career (and he wasn't fictional), he may be on a gravy train with biscuit wheels at the bowling alley; but he's gettin Munsoned in the middle of nowhere in the wrestling ring cuz it's a different endeavor entirely. Some of the key differences between Brock and Ronda is that a) Brock started in pro wrestling so I think that he has a better understanding of how things are. b)Brock doesn’t give a f*** as long as he’s getting paid top dollar so criticisms don’t bother him, c) Brock has gone back to UFC and had success(granted he’s been popped by the USADA). Ronda has none of that. After Nunes destroyed her Dana wasn’t going to book her anymore as she was horribly exposed. She was obviously instrumental to the rise of women’s MMA and deserves credit for that, but she was really a big fish in an empty pond that was built on Dana’s hype and when more talented women started showing up she had no chance. True, plus Brock at least still looks like they got a time machine, went and got a Neanderthal, shaved him up and said "go rassle". So the monster thing works image wise.
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Post by abjordans on Mar 9, 2019 13:11:36 GMT -5
The video of her leaving the house show in Ontario last night and being mean to fans in the nicest way possible and essentially saying she couldn’t be nice to them because she is a heel but that she wants to be nice to them was about the most cringe thing I have ever seen. I think Ronda has done a great job so far, but the shit we saw from her after she lost those fights is starting to peek through. Like, she can’t lean into the heel turn any more than that?
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Mar 9, 2019 13:16:46 GMT -5
It's very simple; This was a work that was meant to turn into a worked shoot but became a shoot after she worked herself into a work shoot sooting on the marks for not buying into her work working a worked shoot which is now a shoot inside a work that was working a worked shoot.
. . . . . Brother
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 13:22:36 GMT -5
I get your point; you feel like we, as a collective, are making a mountain out of a molehill. The issue here is that you have a person who was given carte blanche to do pretty much whatever because "here's this famous person from this legitimate industry coming to our company", which is not unlike what happened after when Brock Lesnar came back after being UFC Heavyweight Champion (let's remember that, for a few years after Lesnar left in 2004, WWE did go out of their way to make Lesnar come off as a flash-in-the-pan guy who couldn't cut the mustard like the Ultimate Warrior), who already has baggage to begin with, and reacts to these situations inappropriately by ranting online about how everyone else sucks, and this line of work is stupid, and that fans are stupid for showing interest in this. That's not trying to get heel heat. That's an unstable person responding to adversity poorly, and ultimately, is hurting the bottom line. If one of the participants of what is most likely going to be the first women's main event of WrestleMania is saying "This is stupid!" and is discussing about how she's going to not follow along with the plans, what's to say that's going to want other people to want to work with her in the future in the event the project involves her doing something that conflicts with her ego? If you noticed a trend, virtually everything Ronda has done, post-UFC, has been projects about how great Ronda is, or involves playing as characters that don't show weakness, and to Ronda, getting booed in WWE was a sign of weakness. As much as she likes putting on this "alpha bitch" mentality, the woman's a skinflint and due to WWE wanting social media to be used more than ever to push stories (because they can't write stories to save their lives), people will notice this more. And there's the reason why it's more of a bigger deal; WWE wants people to pay attention to this crap due to it being on social media. Unfortunately for them, it's to their detriment. The thing is your version of what's happening with Ronda might be accurate, but it could be that she's aware of her perception and is playing around with it. If you wanna judge these events based on intent it's tough because you can internet detective a convincing story supporting pretty much whatever it is you wanna believe is really happening here. That's the crux of my issue with Twitter, wrestling, and the way people mix the two up. The things I see people bring up of what Becky's been tweeting since she's assumed "the Man" character, she said some stuff that is really quite mean and if I don't give her the benefit of the doubt, it would be very easy for me to believe she's developing a Shawn Michaels complex. The conversations around wrestlers when it revolves around twitter just feels overly personal, like we're not really engaging with the art anymore and we're making personal judgments on performers that are strangers to us. Of course wrestlers are going to take advantage of that when observers seem to hang on to every loose hanging thread that they give us. Nah, I gotta disagree with that. You can peep the Sasha feud where Ronda got so thrown off by the boos of the fans that she stumbled and said "alright, you guys got me" and since then it's only increased. I'm not sure about what you mean when you say she was doing fine because by that logic everyone in the company is doing fine given they don't stumble, stutter, I mean even Corbin's doing fine by those regards. If you think everyone's doing fine with carrying their part of the feud related to in-ring promos, small stuff surrounding presentation (we've heard people screaming at Ronda to look hold her title up and what to do etc) then everybody in the company is doing an amazing job and this includes guys like Lashley, Corbin, just the whole roster. I don't think everybody would be horrible against Becky either because that Asuka feud proved otherwise. When it's Charlotte you still get her controlling the crowd, Ronda's the only one who's really this shaken. You're saying that if she was that useless people wouldn't want the single's match but the reality is I've seen people say "nah they don't need to do a single's match prior" to the Rumble match and it's due to everything they've seen. This didn't pop up outta nowhere. It's just increased within these past few weeks given Ronda couldn't handle it.
I'm not surprised that this is a dealbreaker because it goes back to what you just said, it's all social media. Given you're not one who's so deep into social media, it doesn't affect you but to those who are apart of social media it affects them. That might seem ok to you but the reality is this company has been pushing for social media to be apart of the WWE ecosystem for years now and given that we're not supposed to think that social media is a completely separate entity from their main product, it's apart of their product. We see the product include tweets from wrestlers, fans, those backstage, it's just part of it. You're saying WWE has never paid it any mind but the fact is they've paid all of social media mind and that's one reason why it's connected these days. Your idea of "well what happens on tv is the only thing that matters" idea would be true if the company itself wasn't promoting social media as part of the WWE experience. That goes hand and hand with social media being apart of everyone's life. Social media these days is connected to people more than actual live television, it makes sense.
Yeah it's a big deal because social media is part of the WWE ecosystem and programming and has been for these past few years. To you it doesn't matter but it's a different ballgame compared to 1999 as this company's actively pushed for fans to connect the two which makes sense given social media is connected to our lives these days as well.
WWE wanted to use social media as part of their brand to promote their product and to push their storylines? Well they gotta deal with the backlash and that's what's happening. I agree that it's a mess WWE got themselves into. I don't blame fans for getting this wrapped up in it, I totally get why people get caught up in twitter beefs and the like; I'd be lying if I said I don't click on threads when they come up around here that someone did something goofy on Twitter. But just because WWE touts that their social media and television are a cohesive unit doesn't necessarily make it so. That's why it strikes me as odd that people who see a good promo online and says "why aren't they putting this on TV?" will also look at this Ronda promo and say "this things off the rails!" I just don't see what happens on TV versus Twitter as even the same category of entertainment. I'll concede the point though, it's just not my world. I don't think we're gonna find a common ground there. To your other point though, there's a huge difference between Ronda's level of "fineness" and someone like Baron Corbin. I really think your observation about Ronda's failure to look at the right camera and all those ornery Vince McMahon TV cues are something only hardcores are going to notice (I can't say I've ever even picked up on that). I think Ronda's doing "fine" in terms of she should have been slaughtered by fans from day one, she came into this as an outside star, she was plunked into a Wrestlemania match on her first day on the job, she retired in shame from the UFC and was pretty much a meme. She had a lot working against her that I was pretty surprised that she got over as a face. Baron Corbin is technically good at his job, he does what he's asked and memorizes his lines, but a thread on this board about the notion of Corbin even wrestling at Wrestlemania, let alone main eventing, is something people can't handle. People wanted Becky Lynch versus Ronda Rousey to main event, to the point that they don't want Charlotte involved, who is a 100% exceptional WWE performer. So I feel I might even be selling her short to say she's just doing fine. Psycho Sid was technically not a great wrestler, his offense was bad, his promos were odd, but he had a star presence. I don't know how you can argue that someone that people want in a Wrestlemania main event is somehow doing bad. You can't even say it's more about Becky than it is about Ronda, because if you replaced her with Charlotte, people would be disappointed.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Mar 9, 2019 13:24:05 GMT -5
They destroyed the hottest WM story going. Man... It's like being given a hundred dollar bill but you take a scissor and cut in half because you needed fifty. Then you take that half of a 100 and use crayons and markers to further aide the illusion it's a fifty, eventually, you (Vince) are utterly shocked and can't understand why no one wants that great "fifty" dollar bill you made.
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Lt. Palumbo
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Post by Lt. Palumbo on Mar 9, 2019 13:25:53 GMT -5
"f*** the WWE Universe™"
Her 'off-script' rants are on brand 🙄
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 14:02:20 GMT -5
I agree that it's a mess WWE got themselves into. I don't blame fans for getting this wrapped up in it, I totally get why people get caught up in twitter beefs and the like; I'd be lying if I said I don't click on threads when they come up around here that someone did something goofy on Twitter. But just because WWE touts that their social media and television are a cohesive unit doesn't necessarily make it so. That's why it strikes me as odd that people who see a good promo online and says "why aren't they putting this on TV?" will also look at this Ronda promo and say "this things off the rails!" I just don't see what happens on TV versus Twitter as even the same category of entertainment. I'll concede the point though, it's just not my world. I don't think we're gonna find a common ground there. To your other point though, there's a huge difference between Ronda's level of "fineness" and someone like Baron Corbin. I really think your observation about Ronda's failure to look at the right camera and all those ornery Vince McMahon TV cues are something only hardcores are going to notice (I can't say I've ever even picked up on that). I think Ronda's doing "fine" in terms of she should have been slaughtered by fans from day one, she came into this as an outside star, she was plunked into a Wrestlemania match on her first day on the job, she retired in shame from the UFC and was pretty much a meme. She had a lot working against her that I was pretty surprised that she got over as a face. Baron Corbin is technically good at his job, he does what he's asked and memorizes his lines, but a thread on this board about the notion of Corbin even wrestling at Wrestlemania, let alone main eventing, is something people can't handle. People wanted Becky Lynch versus Ronda Rousey to main event, to the point that they don't want Charlotte involved, who is a 100% exceptional WWE performer. So I feel I might even be selling her short to say she's just doing fine. Psycho Sid was technically not a great wrestler, his offense was bad, his promos were odd, but he had a star presence. I don't know how you can argue that someone that people want in a Wrestlemania main event is somehow doing bad. You can't even say it's more about Becky than it is about Ronda, because if you replaced her with Charlotte, people would be disappointed. It's not a hardcore notice when you hear someone screaming at Ronda while she's on camera. You can even go back and watch the clip where she turned heel a few days ago and as she's on the turnbuckle someone loudly was screaming at her 3 times to hold up the title. You might not have heard it but to me when I hear that? I think "wow she can't even do something that simple" and yet I don't really see that with others. It also goes back to what I said about the chants during that post-Sasha feud promo. There's just certain things she's not doing or certain things she does that makes me think "well ok, I see where this is going" so when Charlotte was added I wasn't surprised, it's clockwork. The big difference here is when you say Ronda's doing fine you're talking about her being a star, her being apart of the company and her being a name for a company. When I say Ronda isn't doing fine I'm not talking about that. Yeah she's a star, yeah she has presence and yeah she can go in the ring but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about her promos, the small things such as her remembering certain things when it comes to feuds, her coordination with the fans, not letting anything get to her when she's got a job to do, basically everything that isn't involving her name being "Ronda Rousey", the things that bring it all together which every superstar is equal in. At the end of the day those are the things that are more of a hindrance to her than anything else. This company will push someone to the top if they're not a star if they can get those other things down. If you can't get those things, it doesn't matter if you're a star because they matter more in a long run, you'll be considered a problem. Corbin of all people, for as boring as he is, isn't a star but what he does have over Ronda is the ability to adjust to the crowd, he knows his promos, he knows his As and Bs, he's better at that sort of thing compared to what she's doing.
Ronda "not being fine" doesn't have a thing to do with her being a star and being a name. It has to do with what she's learned in the company that all these superstars themselves learn that aren't connected to their names, popular they are and what they brought to the table prior to learning about the company.
You're saying that you don't know how someone people want in the main event of Wrestlemania can be doing bad. I'm saying that it doesn't have a thing to do with what the fans want, it has to do with everything involving the lead up to the match to the presentation during and after the match for the feud itself. The fans can want a bucket of Popeye's chicken to main event a Wrestlemania and unless that bucket can cut a promo without the crowd getting on them, unless they know the small things Ronda isn't doing right, unless they know how to keep themselves composed and such in the face of adversity then yeah they gotta get someone else in there to help that bucket out because it's not cutting it.
It's bigger than the "ok, this guy is a star so they can't do anything wrong because people like them" aspect that you're referring to.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 9, 2019 14:06:00 GMT -5
1990 - "It's the Ultimate Challenge, it's Wrestlemania!!!!!!!!"
2019 - "Wrestling is scripted. It’s made up. It’s not real"
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 9, 2019 14:14:16 GMT -5
to be fair I already wasn't going to buy the network when Charlotte was added. Now in probably not even going to chill somewhere else and watch the match . Unless the rest of the card becomes something amazing
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Post by atgnatpodcast on Mar 9, 2019 15:15:15 GMT -5
Haven’t watched raw in months...
But at this point going by you guys’ reaction, this has to be a 3 way dance right? Charlotte and Becky destroy her in 5 minutes and eliminate her to a huge pop, then wrestle a great singles match for 20 min.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Mar 9, 2019 15:36:55 GMT -5
1990 - "It's the Ultimate Challenge, it's Wrestlemania!!!!!!!!" 2019 - "Wrestling is scripted. It’s made up. It’s not real" the fans in 2019: "wrestlemania is a challenge to watch, it's 19 frickin hours long"
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 9, 2019 16:11:30 GMT -5
1987
Andre - "Hogan, I taught you everything you know. Wrestlemania will be your last lesson"
2019
Ronda - "“That whole city is just a bunch of people who are f***ing transplants who are trying to escape sh*tty ass Ohio or wherever the f*** that they’re from and they have no pride in LA and they come to our f***ing games and sh*t on our teams and say ‘I’m from Los Angeles, I’ve been living here for 10 years’ — No you’re f***ing not!”
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Post by brown bricks on Mar 9, 2019 20:15:33 GMT -5
Posted on Rousey's twitter: {Spoiler} Yep. It's officially time to flush this. Beyond awful. As others have said, this is now Russo levels of bad and that's really bad.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 20:16:07 GMT -5
This one is adorably bad at least.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 20:16:53 GMT -5
Posted on Rousey's twitter: Yep. It's officially time to flush this. Beyond awful. Lmao, I had to edit my post because you beat me to it by a few seconds.
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Post by brown bricks on Mar 9, 2019 20:19:06 GMT -5
to be fair I already wasn't going to buy the network when Charlotte was added. Now in probably not even going to chill somewhere else and watch the match . Unless the rest of the card becomes something amazing I'm not sure how others feel at this point, but I still think it just needs to be Rousey and Lynch with Lynch pinning her/submitting her clean as a sheet. Becky obviously has the brighter future in the company. To me, Charlotte still feels like an unnecessary throw-in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 20:19:17 GMT -5
I wonder what Jericho's referring to.
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