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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 18, 2019 23:51:01 GMT -5
Not to feed any trolls, but I am actually legit baffled about the people acting like they can't possibly fathom what's shitty about this. Like, no, this isn't being a good heel, because the point of being a good heel is that you pay to see them lose, and RONDA HAS SET IT UP SO SHE CAN'T LOSE. If she gets pinned by Becky, she can just go, "Ha ha, it was a fake match anyway." The people who this is getting heat from are way past the point of paying to see anybody lose. Let's be honest. I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means.
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lionheart21
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Post by lionheart21 on Mar 18, 2019 23:51:39 GMT -5
Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. The problem with that is most of us weren't haters until she started pulling this crap. A lot of us were defending her and saying she had this under control and then she started crapping all over kayfabe. I've lost interest in the match that I'd been more excited for than just about any match of the past 10 years because of this crap. I don't hate her and I don't care enough about her to want to see her beaten at this point. If she left the company tomorrow I wouldn't really care. If she was aiming for apathy then she worked me good. Pretty much this. We're not pissed off about her so-called attack on kayfabe, we just don't care. It's like Authority-Era Steph, we don't wanna see her get her comeuppance, we just don't want her on TV because she's killing our interest in what's going on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 23:56:34 GMT -5
How did it work? I really don't get it. If DC put Lex Luthor in a t-shirt that said "No respect for comic book industry" and had him proceed to launch into a tirade about Superman being a fictional character, would that be a good idea too? Would the fact that it caused a buzz and got people talking mean that it worked? Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. I'm not pissed off at her. I'm disinterested. It's stripped away all of the momentum the match had in my view - which granted wasn't a lot because even before all of this the build to the triple threat was pretty dire - because the focus has shifted entirely to, "Oh, what's that craaaaazy Ronda Pillman gonna do this time?" I don't want to see her get her comeuppance, I'm just looking forward to when she's gone.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 19, 2019 2:38:07 GMT -5
Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. I'm not pissed off at her. I'm disinterested. It's stripped away all of the momentum the match had in my view - which granted wasn't a lot because even before all of this the build to the triple threat was pretty dire - because the focus has shifted entirely to, "Oh, what's that craaaaazy Ronda Pillman gonna do this time?" I don't want to see her get her comeuppance, I'm just looking forward to when she's gone. Yup, it's gone from "this needs to be the main event and will be amazing" to "meh, whatever, give Kofi the main event instead". Making people hate something is meant to make them more invested and interested, not less. Miz and Ciampa have been the best examples over the last couple of years, being amazing heels so people wanted to see them get their comeuppance more and more.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Mar 19, 2019 4:30:18 GMT -5
The people who this is getting heat from are way past the point of paying to see anybody lose. Let's be honest. I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means. Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 8:11:26 GMT -5
How did it work? I really don't get it. If DC put Lex Luthor in a t-shirt that said "No respect for comic book industry" and had him proceed to launch into a tirade about Superman being a fictional character, would that be a good idea too? Would the fact that it caused a buzz and got people talking mean that it worked? Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. That doesn't even make any sense. I actually went from not liking her to thinking she was doing a phenomenal job adapting to WWE and seeing her as an asset to the women's roster. I still don't hate her. I actually feel sorry for her because creative is making her look like a turd.
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Post by Tenshigure on Mar 19, 2019 8:16:07 GMT -5
And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. I disagree, I still believe even in 2019 we can have stories that leave an emotional impact even on its own merits. That doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to 100% believe that what is going on is real (we are beyond that), but moreso that the storytelling being told both in and out of the ring can be compelling enough that it can cause a reaction from even the most fickle audience members. One of the WWE's best examples: THIS storyline was one of the best the WWE has ever told. Yes, the aftermath was left to be desired, but the build-up to this point (Vince threatening to fire Ric if he ever lost again) made the exact moment an emotional trainwreck. This was ENTIRELY on its own merits, with the help of two talents who put EVERYTHING into the performance as it went in. If the WWE or its writing staff could ever get past the whole idea of "moments," the product itself would be all the better for it. As long as it produces its product with the YouTube view count in mind, we're never going to see much of any compelling storytelling that can't be condensed in under 10 minutes due to sheer laziness of its production team.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 8:21:47 GMT -5
I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means. Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this. No. Apply that logic to other forms of scripted entertainment and see how well it works. The fact that fans of a television program enjoy discussing its merits and shortcomings on an Internet forum does not mean that we can't get invested in storylines on their own merits, and does not justify breaking the fourth wall.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 19, 2019 8:37:31 GMT -5
How did it work? I really don't get it. If DC put Lex Luthor in a t-shirt that said "No respect for comic book industry" and had him proceed to launch into a tirade about Superman being a fictional character, would that be a good idea too? Would the fact that it caused a buzz and got people talking mean that it worked? Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. But how is it effective? A pissed off reaction doesn't mean shit, f***, or all if it's not actually drawing money. If it's not directly drawing money, it'd better be telling a good story. This is doing neither. The heat here is on the writing and it's snuffing out the fire this match had, there's nothing effective about it. This isn't making anyone more interested in the show, and if anything is maybe shoving some on-the-fence people further to the idea of not buying Mania and getting their bush frosted or something that night instead. That's not being effective at anything.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 19, 2019 8:43:35 GMT -5
And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. I disagree, I still believe even in 2019 we can have stories that leave an emotional impact even on its own merits. That doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to 100% believe that what is going on is real (we are beyond that), but moreso that the storytelling being told both in and out of the ring can be compelling enough that it can cause a reaction from even the most fickle audience members. One of the WWE's best examples: THIS storyline was one of the best the WWE has ever told. Yes, the aftermath was left to be desired, but the build-up to this point (Vince threatening to fire Ric if he ever lost again) made the exact moment an emotional trainwreck. This was ENTIRELY on its own merits, with the help of two talents who put EVERYTHING into the performance as it went in. If the WWE or its writing staff could ever get past the whole idea of "moments," the product itself would be all the better for it. As long as it produces its product with the YouTube view count in mind, we're never going to see much of any compelling storytelling that can't be condensed in under 10 minutes due to sheer laziness of its production team. I’m interested in your opinion of “The aftermath was left to be desired”, because as I understand it the aftermath was widely well-received as one of the rare WWE examples of them seamlessly transitioning from one feud to the next feud (Michaels v Batista), then a third feud (Michaels v Jericho) and it actually working out. Or do you just mean Flair not actually retiring and going and doing garbage matches in TNA?
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 19, 2019 8:49:57 GMT -5
I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means. Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this. Nope. Super damn nope. I was in the Elimination Chamber live thread and I had a friend on the couch with me. The amount of belief in Kofi and the idea he could succeed was incredible. People were 100% invested in the story and they wanted to see it happen. A good wrestling show a) has you willing to follow the story out of the belief it will be good b) is good enough that you're not thinking about what's happening here because you're invested in what's going on on-screen. I'm not going to pretend insider talk would die out overnight if WWE were good again, but the amount of willingness to get into the stories would be so much greater if the stories weren't utter shit, and we see this every time a good story actually shows up. WWE pushes people to talk about the backstage stuff when they orient their stories around it and try to f*** with our expectations by booking nonsense to throw us for a loop and "work" us. They court this examination and try to cram it into the stories instead of giving us compelling television. They throw us bad segments and contradictory nonsense that make the parts of our brains responsible for reason and logic go "Wait a sec hold the f*** up" because the emotional parts aren't being fired up by anything we can care about. But I have seen too much genuine investment and too many moments where something was exciting to care. And it's not even the big amazing cool storylines either. I watched Wrestlemania with friends last year. When the show opened on the Andre battle and Bray Wyatt came out to help Matt Hardy win, it was unexpected, it was interesting, it had us excited. We went nuts for it, and we didn't sit there talking about how Vince was using Bray ex Machina again, we talked about the neat thing and how we hoped this would go in interesting places. Then Ali vs. Cedric came on and we were immediately engaged in that too. The only thing even kind of getting in the way of that were the constant John Cena reaction cutaways, but even those were less 'Ughhh this Taker story blows" and more cracking jokes about how it kept cutting to Cena. We were a bunch of cynical pricks who were so burned out by the end of the night that one of us hasn't watched WWE since, but there was a willingness, a belief, and when the show was good, we were there. The crowd doesn't go hot for a really convincing near fall because it's one more match over to get them closer to going home, they're in there because of the stories. You might be to deep into the weeds to be able to get invested, but to speak in such sweeping terms about it is projecting to the highest degree.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 9:02:04 GMT -5
Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this. Nope. Super damn nope. I was in the Elimination Chamber live thread and I had a friend on the couch with me. The amount of belief in Kofi and the idea he could succeed was incredible. People were 100% invested in the story and they wanted to see it happen. A good wrestling show a) has you willing to follow the story out of the belief it will be good b) is good enough that you're not thinking about what's happening here because you're invested in what's going on on-screen. I second this. I have never seen Kofi as any more than a midcard act. The New Day annoys me. Across the board, this is not a match that I would ever have wanted to see, but in that moment I was riveted and rooting for Kofi.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 19, 2019 10:22:33 GMT -5
I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means. Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this. Let me tell you and everyone else here a story; This past weekend, I was at Over The Top Wrestling's ScrapperMania event. There were a few Ireland vs. The World matches like Jushin Liger vs. rising star Scotty Davis and Session Moth Martina vs. Meiko Satomura but the show was sold off a rematch from last summer for the world championship, the champ Walter vs. Jordan Devlin. There are fans in the front row who are very close to the wrestlers because they go to every show, most having been there since the start and one being in a skit during the show. They know the deal about the show, that wrestling's fake and they're working each other but along with everyone else, they were rooting for Jordan, the home country hero, the Irish Ace, the Import Killer etc because they wanted Jordan in story to win the title. He's their guy and has been for the past couple of years he's been the top dog in the company. Walter, on the other hand, knew what his character was. He was Brock Lesnar, he was the guy who won the OTT title and used it to get his WWE contract so he comes in and uses his raw power and chops to win whilst disrespecting and throwing the belt around like it's just a toy to him, nothing important at all. And he got BOOED. Not even because he's not Irish but because he was on top and willing to shit on OTT, the fans and management on high because he's the top dog and he made them what they are now (partially true, which makes the story even better. He's right but he's also a f***ing prick). This despite the fact fans who were booing him were going to get pictures with him and buying his shirts down in the merchandise area and saying he's great at his job at doing that. Shockingly, the moment Jordan was finally able to beat Walter after losing the first match and a tag and chasing the man for a proper rematch (being betrayed by long time friend David Starr on the way and beating him for said rematch), the crowd mega popped. David beat Goliath, the beast has been slayed and even showed him respect afterwards for finally getting his belt back from him. The front row fans crowded the ring stamping their hands across every corner, the crowd chanting Devlin's name, pyro and confetti in the Irish colors (being on Paddy's Day weekend made it better), the works. tl;dr: Give the fans a good story, fans will fill a 2200 seat boxing arena to see two people they know probably get along backstage and are on the same WWE UK roster and ignore all of that for the story OTT want to tell. If Walter said "You fans are stupid because this whole thing is fake and Devlin wouldn't stand a chance against me in real life" and Devlin said "Walter's not even your real name, you asshole!", people'd likely give less of a shit.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 19, 2019 10:27:33 GMT -5
Also, let me say this again, something I said before in threads like this.
Ratings are DOWN. Attendances are DOWN. Network Numbers have never, and probably will never, exceeded 2 Million.
The literal only reason they have big money deals is USA has no shows of note left (Suits and Mr. Robot are ending this year), FOX have just today lost the entirety of their show back catalogue and are now a channel that shows Disney owned shows (and Gotham, also ending soon) and need their own programming now that UFC's on ESPN AND for some reason WWE took a massive paycheck from a nation that, to put it lightly, caused a minor international incident last year.
The former should be reason for them to go "Hey, we should probably do something about that to get new viewers into our programming" and seeing the latter caused them to go "....Naaaaaah!"
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 19, 2019 10:35:17 GMT -5
One can say 'wow, that's dumb' with total apathy.
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Post by BorneAgain on Mar 19, 2019 10:42:12 GMT -5
If Ronda's doing asinine merchandise, I kind of want Charlotte to promote a lame insult shirt in response: {Spoiler}
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Post by Tenshigure on Mar 19, 2019 10:57:19 GMT -5
Or do you just mean Flair not actually retiring and going and doing garbage matches in TNA? Bingo. I mean, par for the course when it comes to 'retirements' for sure, but that night and the night after (including all the feuds following it) were some of the absolute best they've done. Let me put this another way: how many other vignette packages can people immediately associate when you simply say the words, "Leave the memories alone"? Not many, I'm sure.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 19, 2019 12:01:11 GMT -5
I honestly don't know what you're saying. I don't know what "past the point of paying to see anybody lose" means. Basically, if you post regularly on the internet about wrestling - about who's getting pushed, who's going to AEW, who booked this shit - I think it's massively disingenuous to make out like someone having 'Break Kayfabe' on a t-shirt is taking you out of the story on screen. You're way past that. If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". And that's the same for everything. It's not a slight on anybody, but the vast, vast majority of people on here couldn't get properly invested in a storyline on its own merits if they tried. It's just not how a lot of people (myself included) watch the WWE. To that end, the only way to get a genuine heel reaction (and not a detached 'wow, what a heel this performer is') is to do stuff like this. I mean listen, I'm totally with you that is is dumb dumb DUMB that the WWE has expanded its kayfabe to include backstage shit about who's getting pushes and who's disliked by management and whatever. Everyone knows the matches are prescripted, and instead of exclusively focusing down on getting us involved in the fiction, they've tried to incorporate the 'smartness' in fans into the ways they work us. It's dumb. But there is a big, big difference between usual WWE stuff (like, say, inserting Charlotte into the match because she's Steph's Chosen One) and Rhonda outright saying "lol none of this matters." Your issue is, you think the way to be a good heel (as I put it, to 'get people to pay to see you lose') is to be legit hated. To make people actually mad. But that's not true: if you make people actually mad, they won't want to see you at all, because there will never be any sort of real emotional release there. The way to be a good heel is to make yourself FUN TO BOO. You know who the best heel of the past decade was? Vickie Guerrero. Remember those times she couldn't say a word because people were booing her so much? That wasn't because they actually hated her; it's because she had a connection with the crowd that allowed for an interplay. As a performer, she had the audience's goodwill and trust, even though people disliked what her character was doing. No one was thinking about whether her schtick was 'real," but at the same time, if you asked anyone in those crowds, they'd tell you that of course they know she's just acting. Because everyone was playing together.... and that's key. Vickie, as she stomped around and howled her disapproval at the crowds, looked like she was having a BLAST out there. And we tacitly get that, all under the surface, there's a vibe of, "Things are cool on the personal level; we can play." We can play with Charlotte. She comes out, all poised and practiced and we boo her terribly and she lets the mask slip for a moment and gives one person a look of withering contempt, and we know, "Aha, this is getting to her." Heel CHARACTERS antagonize the crowd, but heel PERFORMERS need the crowd on their side. So if Rousey makes everyone hate her legit because she's wrecking the story, that is not engaging us as a good heel. That doesn't make us want to watch and enjoy the show.
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Post by darbus alan on Mar 19, 2019 13:01:47 GMT -5
To put this in language I think all of us can understand, Ronda Rousey has become the Poochie of wrestling. Well, if Poochie interrupted the cartoon to call all the children stupid marks for getting invested in a fake cartoon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 13:39:31 GMT -5
If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". Okay, let's turn that on its head here with a non-wrestling example. And since I've been in a Mortal Kombat mood lately... Okay, MK9, when everything looks to be gearing up for the heroes winning the war and saving the day when Sindel suddenly shows up and effortlessly kills them all in like two hits apiece. People don't talk about it as this huge tragedy where the heroes died en masse at their moment of triumph, they talk about how it's a lazy moment shoehorned in to create drama heading into the climax and that it essentially made half the cast look completely worthless. But the same people complaining about that were still enjoying the ride of the story getting there and are the same people who are right now thinking 11's story looks fantastic off the trailer they put out for it the other day. Blaming stupid things on bad writing doesn't mean you can't appreciate good writing.
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