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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 19, 2019 18:16:31 GMT -5
I've let this stew and I want to circle around to the point in a different way; I can only speak for myself on this one and it's probably in a lot of ways the writer side of me getting in on shit but I can enjoy a story way more after analyzing it and realizing the depth involved. I've made a bunch of posts in defense of Charlotte being in the title match because of how well it locks together bunch of character motivations and plays into the central thesis of Becky's character development. I've praised the angle of Daniel Bryan now being the monolithic "Established guy" who sees Kofi in the same position he was once in, having become so self-centered and so egotistical that he can't see the similarity and vomits out sentiments of Kofi not deserving it that turn him into the same monster he fought against. Knowing this is a show written by people enriches it because I can appreciate those notes and the way the pieces move into place to make something fascinating. I want to believe in WWE and I want to enjoy its stories the same way I can get completely engrossed in a New Japan show at 5 AM run so ragged and worn down I start pouring coffee up my ass to try and make it work faster. The same way indie wrestling can still take me, Lucha Underground can hold me like the pulpy action movies it styles itself off of, and the way WWE very occasionally does when it's not sabotaging itself. That shit enriches my viewing experience. Analysis makes me appreciate things deeper.
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
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Post by lionheart21 on Mar 19, 2019 18:29:27 GMT -5
If Kofi loses at Wrestlemania, the reaction in the thread on here will not be "Damn, unlucky Kofi, hope he gets 'em next time", it'll be "f*** this company, they should've booked it like this...". Okay, let's turn that on its head here with a non-wrestling example. And since I've been in a Mortal Kombat mood lately... Okay, MK9, when everything looks to be gearing up for the heroes winning the war and saving the day when Sindel suddenly shows up and effortlessly kills them all in like two hits apiece. People don't talk about it as this huge tragedy where the heroes died en masse at their moment of triumph, they talk about how it's a lazy moment shoehorned in to create drama heading into the climax and that it essentially made half the cast look completely worthless. But the same people complaining about that were still enjoying the ride of the story getting there and are the same people who are right now thinking 11's story looks fantastic off the trailer they put out for it the other day. Blaming stupid things on bad writing doesn't mean you can't appreciate good writing. Nice example there with MK9 and Sindel.
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ssdrivin
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Post by ssdrivin on Mar 19, 2019 20:10:21 GMT -5
I can still get quite happily enveloped in a good wrestling story, but this ain't it.
The 2K WWE games are a good example of this approach, I think. It's like they're trying to send you two conflicting messages at once; that wrestling is a story, a fiction, with characters and events that you can and should suspend your disbelief to indulge in, to enjoy as an alternate universe, but oh, what's this? Now we're talking about bookers, writers, how your character needs to lose this match because it's all a work and sometimes you've gotta do the job? What? Way to tear me out of my little pretend world where I'm fighting to be the best fighter that ever... fought.
It needs to make its mind up. Is it a work of fiction, like Game of Thrones, like Breaking Bad, like Sherlock, like... any number of other fictional TV shows? What kind of fiction? Is it about some sports stars fighting to be the best and to win that championship? Or is it about a group of suits and bitter employees who run a fake wrestling show? I don't know any more. Because currently, and for some years now, it's been some kind of weird mashup that doesn't make sense in either direction, and it's making it really difficult to immerse yourself in the fiction.
As others have mentioned in this thread, if they can't provide anything emotional to invest in, of course we're going to end up criticising the real life backstage elements of it which may or may not have caused the crappy writing to happen. I don't look back at the Attitude Era (I know, I know) and think "boy, they sure booked that terribly, didn't they? I bet that was Russo's fault, or probably Vince being out of touch, or Jeff Jarrett politicking". I think "hey, remember when that guy I liked got beat up and then he got revenge with all the odds stacked against him and how that was such a tense time and wasn't it super awesome?!"
Give me that back again. Please? Why do you hate your fans so much? Do you not understand how popular fiction works? Just let me enjoy it. I don't mind a little fourth-wall banter every now and then, but don't cram it down my throat that this is all a work and that I'm a dumb (s)mark and haha sucker we've got your money. Just give me something fun, something I can invest the part of my brain that still appreciates fiction into, and stop beating me around the head with this immersion-breaking garbage.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Mar 20, 2019 8:06:59 GMT -5
To put this in language I think all of us can understand, Ronda Rousey has become the Poochie of wrestling. Well, if Poochie interrupted the cartoon to call all the children stupid marks for getting invested in a fake cartoon. Except people like Poochie outside the Simpsons universe. He's a better 'heel' in that respect than Ronda. This is just dumb. I have never seriously thought WWE would go this far, only someone crazy like Russo would....right? They really messed up here. The sad thing is, even now we'd all be willing to forgive and forget if WWE realised it's mistake here and tried to rectify it. But it's not them! It's Ronda breaking the script! Or is it? A few posts back, someone was posting about Wrestle Kingdom. I have never seriously watched another fed besides WWE/WCW, even though I have checked out TNA before. But I'm going to check them out. I realise I'm a wrestling fan first and a WWE fan second, so just like before when I didn't like the product, there ARE other options out there. I didn't really understand this, and there is no crossover appeal (this guy used to wrestle in a rival faction!), but still, it's got to be better than this. Some people like to complain complain endlessly. I'll do it myself on certain subjects (disagree with vince about Montreal for example). But really I like to watch and enjoy the show. I'm not enjoying what I'm hearing about this angle, and as a lapsed hardcore fan, now only fringe WWE watcher, it puts me off checking out other decent angles and wrestlers within the show.
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Juice
El Dandy
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 13:59:12 GMT -5
Because youre the ones she's trying to piss off. Her "haters". It,is the most effective thing the girls done so far. But how is it effective? A pissed off reaction doesn't mean shit, f***, or all if it's not actually drawing money. If it's not directly drawing money, it'd better be telling a good story. This is doing neither. The heat here is on the writing and it's snuffing out the fire this match had, there's nothing effective about it. This isn't making anyone more interested in the show, and if anything is maybe shoving some on-the-fence people further to the idea of not buying Mania and getting their bush frosted or something that night instead. That's not being effective at anything. Sure it is. She’s heel. People are turning on her. This is her choice. They are taking control. You will hate her for their reasons not yours. And when Becky beats her everyone will be happier. I’m tired of every internet fan having some deep analytical business perspective like they know the inside and out and how every little thing that pisses them off means it’s the end for sure. They don’t like you. It’s clear. Here’s a shirt that proves it. Wanna think for yourself here’s your punishment. Walk away if you hate it. I did.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Mar 20, 2019 14:05:08 GMT -5
But how is it effective? A pissed off reaction doesn't mean shit, f***, or all if it's not actually drawing money. If it's not directly drawing money, it'd better be telling a good story. This is doing neither. The heat here is on the writing and it's snuffing out the fire this match had, there's nothing effective about it. This isn't making anyone more interested in the show, and if anything is maybe shoving some on-the-fence people further to the idea of not buying Mania and getting their bush frosted or something that night instead. That's not being effective at anything. Sure it is. She’s heel. People are turning on her. This is her choice. They are taking control. You will hate her for their reasons not yours. And when Becky beats her everyone will be happier. I’m tired of every internet fan having some deep analytical business perspective like they know the inside and out and how every little thing that pisses them off means it’s the end for sure. They don’t like you. It’s clear. Here’s a shirt that proves it. Wanna think for yourself here’s your punishment. Walk away if you hate it. I did. The job of a heel is not "being disliked" is bringing interest to the story and making the people want to see the face overcome you. Ronda "Wrestling is fake,marks" shtick did neither of those.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Mar 20, 2019 14:23:10 GMT -5
Time to bring some levity here. When Bobby Heenan first broke into wrestling he told his mother that the whole thing was fake, his mother told him “of course it’s fake Bobby, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to do it.” And now we know where Bobby got his wit.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 20, 2019 17:44:49 GMT -5
But how is it effective? A pissed off reaction doesn't mean shit, f***, or all if it's not actually drawing money. If it's not directly drawing money, it'd better be telling a good story. This is doing neither. The heat here is on the writing and it's snuffing out the fire this match had, there's nothing effective about it. This isn't making anyone more interested in the show, and if anything is maybe shoving some on-the-fence people further to the idea of not buying Mania and getting their bush frosted or something that night instead. That's not being effective at anything. Sure it is. She’s heel. People are turning on her. This is her choice. They are taking control. You will hate her for their reasons not yours. And when Becky beats her everyone will be happier. I’m tired of every internet fan having some deep analytical business perspective like they know the inside and out and how every little thing that pisses them off means it’s the end for sure. They don’t like you. It’s clear. Here’s a shirt that proves it. Wanna think for yourself here’s your punishment. Walk away if you hate it. I did. But I don't hate her for their reasons, I hate her for reasons that existed before she showed up, and right now I don't want to see Becky beat her I just don't care. I don't give a shit about deep business perspective I give a shit about having a good story I can enjoy and this isn't it, but telling me it's working is some real "here's what you really think" shit. It's not making me dislike Ronda it's making me dislike the writing and the company. That isn't effective.
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Juice
El Dandy
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 18:11:28 GMT -5
Sure it is. She’s heel. People are turning on her. This is her choice. They are taking control. You will hate her for their reasons not yours. And when Becky beats her everyone will be happier. I’m tired of every internet fan having some deep analytical business perspective like they know the inside and out and how every little thing that pisses them off means it’s the end for sure. They don’t like you. It’s clear. Here’s a shirt that proves it. Wanna think for yourself here’s your punishment. Walk away if you hate it. I did. The job of a heel is not "being disliked" is bringing interest to the story and making the people want to see the face overcome you. Ronda "Wrestling is fake,marks" shtick did neither of those. Manias already sold out and no one bitching will drop the sub for network. They can do whatever they want. Old wrestling logic doesn’t apply to multi media conglomerate wwe.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 20, 2019 18:36:12 GMT -5
The job of a heel is not "being disliked" is bringing interest to the story and making the people want to see the face overcome you. Ronda "Wrestling is fake,marks" shtick did neither of those. Manias already sold out and no one bitching will drop the sub for network. They can do whatever they want. Old wrestling logic doesn’t apply to multi media conglomerate wwe. So hold on a second here; She’s doing a good job at being a heel because of the fact that the usual things that happen around WrestleMania happen ala Network subscriptions and WrestleMania ticket sales (Ignoring the fact that if WrestleMania sold out we would have heard by now)? What does that have to do with people not liking a storyline or saying that Ronda isn’t a very good heel because she’s driving down interest rather than being someone the crowd wants to see get beat up?
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Juice
El Dandy
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 18:44:32 GMT -5
Manias already sold out and no one bitching will drop the sub for network. They can do whatever they want. Old wrestling logic doesn’t apply to multi media conglomerate wwe. So hold on a second here; She’s doing a good job at being a heel because of the fact that the usual things that happen around WrestleMania happen ala Network subscriptions and WrestleMania ticket sales (Ignoring the fact that if WrestleMania sold out we would have heard by now)? What does that have to do with people not liking a storyline or saying that Ronda isn’t a very good heel because she’s driving down interest rather than being someone the crowd wants to see get beat up? I said that the arguments made for the storyline not selling a good story are meaningless because we don’t need it to sell tickets. You’ve ignored any points I made at all. So to reiterate the point is to get heat from the people already booing. The people pissed off and outraged at meta storyline breaking kyfabe. So when she gets booed and hatred it’s not because they failed anymore it’s because it was the plan all along. Even though that’s just their spin.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 20, 2019 18:50:57 GMT -5
So hold on a second here; She’s doing a good job at being a heel because of the fact that the usual things that happen around WrestleMania happen ala Network subscriptions and WrestleMania ticket sales (Ignoring the fact that if WrestleMania sold out we would have heard by now)? What does that have to do with people not liking a storyline or saying that Ronda isn’t a very good heel because she’s driving down interest rather than being someone the crowd wants to see get beat up? I said that the arguments made for the storyline not selling a good story are meaningless because we don’t need it to sell tickets. You’ve ignored any points I made at all. So to reiterate the point is to get heat from the people already booing. The people pissed off and outraged at meta storyline breaking kyfabe. So when she gets booed and hatred it’s not because they failed anymore it’s because it was the plan all along. Even though that’s just their spin. No, because you’re bouncing between several ones at once. You’re saying it’s doing a good job because it’s getting a reaction despite the fact TV ratings have plunged since January further than ever. Then you say said reaction doesn’t really matter because they’ve already sold out WrestleMania so coming up with a story doesn’t matter even though said crowd reaction means that it’s working? Like, you’re bouncing between those two things. It literally can’t be both, because for all the talk about this forum or Twitter or whatever, this storyline along with others is affecting the most important figure of all which is TV ratings. I’m preemptively jumping out of this discussion because I know where this is going, I’ve made my point so I’m good.
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Juice
El Dandy
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I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 19:09:54 GMT -5
I said that the arguments made for the storyline not selling a good story are meaningless because we don’t need it to sell tickets. You’ve ignored any points I made at all. So to reiterate the point is to get heat from the people already booing. The people pissed off and outraged at meta storyline breaking kyfabe. So when she gets booed and hatred it’s not because they failed anymore it’s because it was the plan all along. Even though that’s just their spin. No, because you’re bouncing between several ones at once. You’re saying it’s doing a good job because it’s getting a reaction despite the fact TV ratings have plunged since January further than ever. Then you say said reaction doesn’t really matter because they’ve already sold out WrestleMania so coming up with a story doesn’t matter even though said crowd reaction means that it’s working? Like, you’re bouncing between those two things. It literally can’t be both, because for all the talk about this forum or Twitter or whatever, this storyline along with others is affecting the most important figure of all which is TV ratings. I’m preemptively jumping out of this discussion because I know where this is going, I’ve made my point so I’m good. Let me simplify since statements can never go without unnecessary argument anymore In order of events. 1) crowds began turning on Rhonda. 2) Rhonda gets owned in social media by Becky. Responds by breaking kayfabe. 3) receives negative reaction because Russo levels of dumb to some people. 4) she goes full heel with breaking kayfabe character. Releases shirt and makes above anoyed fans more pissed off Therefore it’s an effective tool to get justifiable heat in wwe eyes the crowd didn’t turn Rhonda heel. They did and it’s all according to plan. 5)People argued why that’s dumb story needs to be better. Build needs to be better. 6) I point out tix are already sold. Mania sells itself. They don’t need to have good anything anymore. Never said shit about ratings. I openly and vocally don’t watch this trash. Good?
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 31,491
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Post by lionheart21 on Mar 20, 2019 19:18:14 GMT -5
Not really sure where there's been any real outrage. I've seen a whole lot of apathy and disappointment regarding it, but outrage?
Also, tickets are already sold because its friggin Wrestlemania. People are already set to buy tickets in advance of knowing what the card is gonna be because its Wrestlemania.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Mar 20, 2019 19:23:24 GMT -5
No, because you’re bouncing between several ones at once. You’re saying it’s doing a good job because it’s getting a reaction despite the fact TV ratings have plunged since January further than ever. Then you say said reaction doesn’t really matter because they’ve already sold out WrestleMania so coming up with a story doesn’t matter even though said crowd reaction means that it’s working? Like, you’re bouncing between those two things. It literally can’t be both, because for all the talk about this forum or Twitter or whatever, this storyline along with others is affecting the most important figure of all which is TV ratings. I’m preemptively jumping out of this discussion because I know where this is going, I’ve made my point so I’m good. Let me simplify since statements can never go without unnecessary argument anymore In order of events. 1) crowds began turning on Rhonda. 2) Rhonda gets owned in social media by Becky. Responds by breaking kayfabe. 3) receives negative reaction because Russo levels of dumb to some people. 4) she goes full heel with breaking kayfabe character. Releases shirt and makes above anoyed fans more pissed off Therefore it’s an effective tool to get justifiable heat in wwe eyes the crowd didn’t turn Rhonda heel. They did and it’s all according to plan. 5)People argued why that’s dumb story needs to be better. Build needs to be better. 6) I point out tix are already sold. Mania sells itself. They don’t need to have good anything anymore. Never said shit about ratings. I openly and vocally don’t watch this trash. Good? All heat is not good heat. I don't think the heat is justifiable. I don't want to tune in to see Ronda get beat, or to possibly back her words up. I don't want to see her at all. People complained about the Reigns/Cena promo, but at least with the anticipation that SOMETHING had to happen, a heel turn perhaps. There's none of that here, no interest in the storyline. Like if Tom Hardy as Bane was arguing with Ben Affleck as Batman and said "batmans fake and you fans are stupid for watching it, screw you all". Maybe the movie will still make profit, but people aren't going because "ooh I want to see Tom because he's such an effective villain at hating Ben and us the fans, he might not follow the script! I hope he gets some real punches from Ben in the movie!"
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 20, 2019 19:24:40 GMT -5
In order of events. 1) crowds began turning on Rhonda. 2) Rhonda gets owned in social media by Becky. Responds by breaking kayfabe. 3) receives negative reaction because Russo levels of dumb to some people. 4) she goes full heel with breaking kayfabe character. Releases shirt and makes above anoyed fans more pissed off Therefore it’s an effective tool to get justifiable heat in wwe eyes the crowd didn’t turn Rhonda heel. They did and it’s all according to plan. 5)People argued why that’s dumb story needs to be better. Build needs to be better. 6) I point out tix are already sold. Mania sells itself. They don’t need to have good anything anymore. Never said shit about ratings. I openly and vocally don’t watch this trash. Good? So if what she did was good (annoying fans), but it's not possible to sell more tickets... what are you praising her for? If the tickets are already bought, she could be out there singing the Alphabet song every week, and it would be just as good as what she's doing. What's the benefit of her annoying people the way she's annoying people?
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 19:26:12 GMT -5
In order of events. 1) crowds began turning on Rhonda. 2) Rhonda gets owned in social media by Becky. Responds by breaking kayfabe. 3) receives negative reaction because Russo levels of dumb to some people. 4) she goes full heel with breaking kayfabe character. Releases shirt and makes above anoyed fans more pissed off Therefore it’s an effective tool to get justifiable heat in wwe eyes the crowd didn’t turn Rhonda heel. They did and it’s all according to plan. 5)People argued why that’s dumb story needs to be better. Build needs to be better. 6) I point out tix are already sold. Mania sells itself. They don’t need to have good anything anymore. Never said shit about ratings. I openly and vocally don’t watch this trash. Good? So if what she did was good (annoying fans), but it's not possible to sell more tickets... what are you praising her for? If the tickets are already bought, she could be out there singing the Alphabet song every week, and it would be just as good as what she's doing. What's the benefit of her annoying people the way she's annoying people? No, No praise. Acknowledging it was effective to target the base turning on her.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 20, 2019 19:27:51 GMT -5
No, No praise. Acknowledging it was effective to target the base turning on her. Wait... you're saying what she did was EFFECTIVE, but also you are NOT praising it? Saying it's effective.... sounds like praise to me?
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Mar 20, 2019 19:29:38 GMT -5
I keep thinking that there's something else going one here because this is low even for WWE. Like something ain't kosher about how all this is panning out. That's what they're hoping people think. They want eyes for Mania they normally wouldn't have. The purpose of all this is "OMG WILL RONDA REALLY PULL A 'SEXY STAR' AND SHOOT ON A GIRL MIDMATCH?!". Direct your ire equally at WWE here. You sure it's not "WILL WONDA REALLY PULL A 'SEXY STAR' AND REFUSE TO SELL?!
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Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
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Post by Juice on Mar 20, 2019 19:33:50 GMT -5
No, No praise. Acknowledging it was effective to target the base turning on her. Wait... you're saying what she did was EFFECTIVE, but also you are NOT praising it? Saying it's effective.... sounds like praise to me? They are not the same
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