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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 7:37:11 GMT -5
They didn’t have her on the show at that time because everyone and their mother was in the women’s chamber. You would’ve had a heatless match or a heatless mini feud between Asuka/Lana that would’ve just been a squash and did nothing for no one. I can’t fault them for doing that. I can.You can have her wathcing the matches, involved in a feud with one of the teams. "Its hard" is never an excuse.Hell have her in one of the teams instead of Naomi and Carmella,sure she loses but if her teamate gets pinned ,she is protected pretty much like Nia. I don’t think having the champion lose in the woman’s chamber would’ve really done much for anyone, honestly. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think that would’ve helped.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 27, 2019 7:37:36 GMT -5
But...that’s on him and creative to do that. If they wanted Asuka and another contender to matter at WrestleMania...it’s entirely up to them to do that. Like, looking at it, sure, the logic is there but...again, if they wanted to do something about it, it’s not like the idea isn’t obvious to do or change. It was like when stuff came out about Vince not wanting Braun to face Brock again because he’s lost too many times to him and it’s like...who made him lose all those times, chucklehead? For sure, however, even with a story, I really don’t think anyone would’ve cared for either competitor in that fatal four way or would’ve believed they had a chance. If it was mandy, it would solely come down to having the look and would have people a bit nervous. If it was Sonya, her mic skills would’ve certainly done the match zero favors. If it was Carmella, people would’ve been nervous in her beating Asuka again, and if it was Naomi, no one wouldn’t really care. I agree with your view though, it does certainly boil down to creative. I can agree with that for the most part, but I do disagree nobody would have brought Naomi considering she was pretty over the last time her and Asuka fought. Them having a decent match near the start of the main show would have done nobody any harm, really. It's like I said in another thread, once Lynch declared herself challenging for the RAW belt, that's where she should have stayed to build the match up, and same with Charlotte once she got added. That frees up TV time on SmackDown that could have gone to keeping Asuka's momentum going and building up a challenger for her, and then you'd have a title match with a little bit of spice to it. Even though I can see where the Chamber argument comes from, there's no harm in sprinkling little things of build like Naomi and Carmella cutting a promo and Asuka comes in between and they both look at the belt or minor call outs to Asuka or different things like that, just something to at least say the champ's around and keeping her eyes out for the next victim. Hell, Smackdown teams just entered the chamber so there was no real reason to not at least start something before EC to kick off properly afterwards, maybe using it as a reason for a mini feud to find a challenger.
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Post by ChitownKnight on Mar 27, 2019 8:12:49 GMT -5
Wasn’t there a rumor that they wanted the women to be part of both shows? I think this is step 2, step 1 having the woman’s tag titles be internbrand
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Post by auph10imitated on Mar 27, 2019 8:33:23 GMT -5
Could they really over book this RAW Womens Championship Match any more than they could have, the storyline could have been simple as hell, what the hell have they done??
Charlotte now has a title, whats the point in her going for the RAW one as well when she would have to give it up anyways if she won it? It doesnt make any god damn sense!!
If they really didnt want Asuka to be put in a throw away match and wanted to eliminate a match just have her defend against all of the remaining women in a battle royal/open invitational deal.
Boggles the mind sometimes!
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 27, 2019 8:42:38 GMT -5
Ugh, yeah, if "Vince changed his mind" because he felt having the SD women's title in a lower tier match on what's shaping up to be an 8 hour card wasn't worth it, then here's an idea: either book the title and champion better, or don't book Wrestlemania to have 17 matches and be 8 hours long.
I think for a lot of people a key complaint here is the bigger picture of what booking like this tells us about WWE: Becky tapping out clean to Asuka at the Rumble should've been a big moment, but in the end it meant literally nothing.
Losing that match had zero impact on Becky, who just won the Rumble, anyway and hasn't had to acknowledge the loss since. Winning that match did nothing to give Asuka a new direction or purpose, as she wasn't even really on TV for a long time afterward, so there was no glory in it, either. The match didn't inform anything that happened on later shows, it didn't create any new character wrinkles for either woman, it didn't help lead from one story into a new one, it did nothing. The match happened, it was good in the moment, but it had no consequence on anything whatsoever, so why should people care in the future when you book matches between talented people on your fake fighting show?
It's modern WWE in a nutshell: this friggin' Mania card is packed to the gills with talent (seriously, the world is getting Samoa Joe vs. Rey Mysterio for a title, for God's sake), but nearly none of it matters. The Kofi storyline sticks out because the New Day is actually evolving as a set of characters, Bryan is playing off his own past to emphasize his new heel character, etc., but the rest becomes a sea of "this match is happening because it's happening, and we'll probably run at least half a dozen rematches of it in the next month or two." Tell us why it matters, people want to care!
I can't comment as much purely on how Asuka has been used; I don't watch consistently enough to speak to her entire main roster run. However, my point in this post ties into my next one: kayfabe accolades on the WWE main roster in the modern era unfortunately really don't add up to very much. It's always telling on WWE cards to me that there's a gap between people who are holding whatever titles or winning whatever gimmick matches and the people who the writers/Vince clearly think matter most. It's why there are guys with 53 IC title reigns on their resumes who really don't feel significant at all. Asuka hasn't been used that badly, at least as best I can tell, but they clearly had nothing in mind to follow up her undefeated streak, her winning the Rumble, her tapping out the biggest star in her division in January, etc.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Mar 27, 2019 8:47:03 GMT -5
I am fine with the idea of having Becky beat both woman's champions so she is undisputedly the top woman on the roster. I think if Becky is your girl then it's fine to sacrifice people in order to make her a megastar. Sacrificing Asuka and the other girls to get Becky more over by proxy (via Charlotte getting a title) is a defensible booking decision because Becky is your gal to build around.
The problem is the booking and timing were so bad that it leaves a sour taste in people's mouth.
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Post by cabbageboy on Mar 27, 2019 9:02:13 GMT -5
It's not like WMs having a nothing build is a new idea. When I first watched in the late 80s it's not like these cards had great storylines up and down the show. WM 5 for instance. Aside from the main event what other matches had any sort of storyline? I guess Warrior/Rude had a pose down at the Rumble. Demos/Powers had the Fuji turn. Stuff like Dino Bravo vs. Ron Garvin? Hercules vs. Haku? Mr. Perfect vs. Blue Blazer? A lot of those matches were sort of just there. You really don't need a ton of over matches for a WM card, but it helps to have 2-3 really good builds that people will pay to see.
I'd say WM 14 was really the first time where the majority of the card had a ton of excellent build on TV. I mean yeah there was a nothing battle royale and a 6 minute cruiser match, but after that everything had a storyline to it: HHH/Owen, Mero/Sable vs. Goldust/Luna, Rock/Shamrock, Cactus/Funk vs. NAO, Taker/Kane, and Austin/Michaels.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 27, 2019 9:11:50 GMT -5
I am fine with the idea of having Becky beat both woman's champions so she is undisputedly the top woman on the roster. I think if Becky is your girl then it's fine to sacrifice people in order to make her a megastar. Sacrificing Asuka and the other girls to get Becky more over by proxy (via Charlotte getting a title) is a defensible booking decision because Becky is your gal to build around. The problem is the booking and timing were so bad that it leaves a sour taste in people's mouth. Pretty much that,its so close to WM that having Asuka lose like that and lose her title spot at the show is gut wrenching.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 9:22:54 GMT -5
I am fine with the idea of having Becky beat both woman's champions so she is undisputedly the top woman on the roster. I think if Becky is your girl then it's fine to sacrifice people in order to make her a megastar. Sacrificing Asuka and the other girls to get Becky more over by proxy (via Charlotte getting a title) is a defensible booking decision because Becky is your gal to build around. The problem is the booking and timing were so bad that it leaves a sour taste in people's mouth. Honestly, the sacrificing stars for Becky is one reason why I said Charlotte needed to be in the triple threat in the first place and yet people were against it.
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Mar 27, 2019 9:32:09 GMT -5
I’m feeling that this may be to give Becky win more legitimacy. Rhonda won’t do the job so this way Becky is still beating the Champ. Ronda HAS to do the job. Or nobody will give a shit. I totally agree, but I’ve just got a feeling that Rhonda isn’t going to do the job as she should.
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Post by Instant Classic on Mar 27, 2019 9:40:11 GMT -5
Good, unify them. Then unify the tag titles cause they don’t need two titles. And then we get to see even more talent and stars never get an opportunity basically, because that is exactly what will happen. Because everyone needs a participation award.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Mar 27, 2019 9:48:11 GMT -5
And then we get to see even more talent and stars never get an opportunity basically, because that is exactly what will happen. Because everyone needs a participation award. No, but some talents are rarely seen despite being good as it is. Decreasing the amount of titles doesn't increase their value, it just gives Vince an excuse to use less talents.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 27, 2019 9:54:57 GMT -5
Because everyone needs a participation award. No, but some talents are rarely seen despite being good as it is. Decreasing the amount of titles doesn't increase their value, it just gives Vince an excuse to use less talents. People claimed when the single brand PPVs were ending that WWE would cycle their roster and wouldn't just rely on the same core people they're already using. Not only was that objectively not what happened, but it led to the people who didn't get on the PPV being marginalized on TV and given nothing to work with. The show is written in an exceptionally lazy way and it's a proven fact that when WWE can find some way to do less creatively, it will.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 27, 2019 9:56:40 GMT -5
It's not like WMs having a nothing build is a new idea. When I first watched in the late 80s it's not like these cards had great storylines up and down the show. WM 5 for instance. Aside from the main event what other matches had any sort of storyline? I guess Warrior/Rude had a pose down at the Rumble. Demos/Powers had the Fuji turn. Stuff like Dino Bravo vs. Ron Garvin? Hercules vs. Haku? Mr. Perfect vs. Blue Blazer? A lot of those matches were sort of just there. You really don't need a ton of over matches for a WM card, but it helps to have 2-3 really good builds that people will pay to see. I'd say WM 14 was really the first time where the majority of the card had a ton of excellent build on TV. I mean yeah there was a nothing battle royale and a 6 minute cruiser match, but after that everything had a storyline to it: HHH/Owen, Mero/Sable vs. Goldust/Luna, Rock/Shamrock, Cactus/Funk vs. NAO, Taker/Kane, and Austin/Michaels. I'd argue a couple of things there: first, that there were more stories at play than you might remember, simply because a lot more stories back then were told on the house show circuit. Still, stories told don't need to be complicated or complex, they just need to feel like they're helping the matches serve a purpose, even if the story itself is dirt simple. The bigger point, though, is that WM cards then and now are just entirely different beasts. In the old days it was easy to make a show look big just by virtue of having "name" wrestlers face one another, which certainly did make life easier, but more than that it also allowed for a more soundly structured card - you could have Rockers vs. Heenan Family open WM 7 without a lot of build because fans weren't spoiled on the two teams facing each other on free TV, and the card could naturally build toward the bigger matches (typically the title matches plus a couple others) as the night went on. Even Earthquake vs. Hercules at WM 6 at least served the purposes of letting the crowd resettle for the next big match, plus put Quake over big to set him up for his summer program against Hogan. Today, almost every match has a title in it; that's certainly doable, it's not like other promotions don't pull it off well, but in that case you really owe it to your wrestlers and audience to give some significance to what's happening. Go ahead and let a couple of the matches be "this is happening just because it's awesome" spotfests or whatever, that's fine, but there needs to be some weight to the proceedings. Beyond that, there's also just a huge gap between a simple story and an overbooked one; a simple one can give a story room to grow in the audience's collective mind or in the actions/words of the wrestlers, while an overbooked one more easily becomes a mess that can hurt fan interest. If early WMs didn't always have great builds it was usually because a lot of the matches had very simple stories, down to something at easy as "Jack Tunney will keep this match in mind when deciding who gets the next chance at the Intercontinental title"; what's going on here working as a turn-off for many fans who initially were very eager to see these matches.
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Post by The Trashman on Mar 27, 2019 10:03:45 GMT -5
Remember when Asuka was undefeated and we thought she might be the one main eventing against Ronda?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Mar 27, 2019 10:04:20 GMT -5
Becky wins the Rumble and challenge Ronda. Charlotte/Naomi/Sonya etc all angle for the shot at Asuka for Mania, seeing that she has no challenger after Becky chose the Raw title. Charlotte wins a multi girl match to earn the shot.
Asuka vs Charlotte: A rematch from the previous year where Asuka's streak was ended. Flair goads her about that fact. Asuka is out to avenge the loss.
THAT WAS REALLY, REALLY f***ING EASY TO DO!!!! But no, let's shoehorn Charlotte into the Raw match because god forbid she's not part of every single big godammn moment, and let's not build a challenger for Asuka because....*shurgs*
I usually don't get this angry about booking, but holy shit what an avoidable mess.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Mar 27, 2019 10:06:20 GMT -5
No, but some talents are rarely seen despite being good as it is. Decreasing the amount of titles doesn't increase their value, it just gives Vince an excuse to use less talents. People claimed when the single brand PPVs were ending that WWE would cycle their roster and wouldn't just rely on the same core people they're already using. Not only was that objectively not what happened, but it led to the people who didn't get on the PPV being marginalized on TV and given nothing to work with. The show is written in an exceptionally lazy way and it's a proven fact that when WWE can find some way to do less creatively, it will. And yet some cling to "Buh-buh-buh 18 years ago things were g-g-g-g-good." The evidence is right on the show. The brand split is the only way to get to see more people get opportunities.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 10:27:17 GMT -5
Remember when Asuka was undefeated and we thought she might be the one main eventing against Ronda? At WM? Who the hell thought that lmao? I thought Ronda would beat Asuka but that just didn't feel like a WM thing. The moment we got Charlotte/Asuka I was thinking "wait a minute...nah, we ain't...no" and then next thing you know I see Asuka tapping out to Charlotte and crying in the ring shortly after. Granted the match was dope, I just didn't think they'd try to factor in Charlotte/Ronda that early but here we are with Becky shoehorned into the match to be the winner. Sometimes long-term booking sucks ass.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 27, 2019 10:33:46 GMT -5
Remember when Asuka was undefeated and we thought she might be the one main eventing against Ronda? At WM? Who the hell thought that lmao? I thought Ronda would beat Asuka but that just didn't feel like a WM thing. The moment we got Charlotte/Asuka I was thinking "wait a minute...nah, we ain't...no" and then next thing you know I see Asuka tapping out to Charlotte and crying in the ring shortly after. Granted the match was dope, I just didn't think they'd try to factor in Charlotte/Ronda that early but here we are with Becky shoehorned into the match to be the winner. Sometimes long-term booking sucks ass. When Ronda debuted the initial impression (or armchair booking) is that they would build Asuka and Ronda in a Streak vs Streak match. Then after WM that went out of the window and most started assuming Charlotte would break Ronda's streak eventually too.The common denominator si that everyone assumed Ronda would ne undefeatable until next WM.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Mar 27, 2019 11:09:18 GMT -5
The problem with the Woman's division is there is no upper mid card at all. You are either champion or you are low mid-carder on the show. Asuka will be great in the Finn Balor role of secondary babyface (or heel) who is presented underneath the title picture.
The Woman's division really does not have that (Sometimes on Raw one pops up) so it just feels a woman has to have title to be important which is not really true on the men side.
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