Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 9:24:26 GMT -5
Agreed, and the fact that "mid-tier" free agents are getting screwed the past number of years means I won't be shocked at all if there's another strike some time in the near future. To make matters worse, a lot of these teams make so much money due to their cable deals and regional networks that many have controlling interests in...and the cable bubble is going to pop sooner than later. Only catch on the Wilpon payments: when they bought full ownership of the Mets in 2002, they already had a 50% stake in the team dating back to the mid-80s, AND Selig got them a lower price valuation because he loved Fred Wilpon, since Fred was a big reason why Bud got installed as the owner-friendly commissioner that he was...what a bunch of jackals. I've been saying collusion for a couple offseasons now. They weren't always this cheap, then all at once became misers about anyone who isn't a superstar. It's a mixture of several thing, analytics have made it where everyone thinks they can get production from guys who make no money. Most of the teams are owned by guys who run their teams like majorly profitable businesses above winning. In reality the star players should be making more than they do, the baseball revenue is skyrocketing from all of the media deals yet team payrolls aren't. It's easy for them to sell it to because a good majority of fans already think players are overpaid. Because baseball hasn't ever opened it's books we have no idea what these teams and the league makes. Where all the other leagues we know because they have a percentage of revenue that has to be paid to the players with salary caps and spending floors etc etc. I would honestly make a bet that if we put all of the baseball revenue into a pool and came up with a round number of what baseball generates. Then we looked at the percentage the players make, I would guess it is the lowest of any sport. Baseball players might actually want to consider a salary cap, basically every team is refusing to go into the luxury tax bracket save a few, so there is already a soft cap. Then you factor in without that they can not in anyway get a salary floor or a % of revenue number to be spread among the players, it's a hard argument for them to win. If they still won't do that about their only recourse is to basically demand that guys make more money in their first 4 years making replacing the vets not that cost effective.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Dec 6, 2019 10:10:16 GMT -5
Nationals resign Howie Kendrick on 1 year, $6.25 million dollar deal with a mutual option for 2021.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 6, 2019 10:13:33 GMT -5
Quality purchase. I've also got the hat with the World Series Champions logo and my girlfriend ordered me the commemorative book.
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domrep
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Post by domrep on Dec 6, 2019 11:37:52 GMT -5
The Lerners are the richest owners, or one of, in baseball and they run the Nats like a mom and pop organization. Granted, they just won the World Series but this is the same song and dance we've seen from them since they bought the team.
The thinking was they didn't pay Harper b/c they had Strasburg and Rendon as free agents to be.
Now there's a report they can only keep 1. This team made a shit ton of playoff money, they had watch parties when the team was on the road during the playoffs which was unexpected income. Now they're crying poor, it's ridiculous.
So who are they saving the $ for? I'm just waiting for this to come up again when Trea and Soto are free agents, they never seem to want to keep their hitters.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 12:32:33 GMT -5
The Lerners are the richest owners, or one of, in baseball and they run the Nats like a mom and pop organization. Granted, they just won the World Series but this is the same song and dance we've seen from them since they bought the team. The thinking was they didn't pay Harper b/c they had Strasburg and Rendon as free agents to be. Now there's a report they can only keep 1. This team made a shit ton of playoff money, they had watch parties when the team was on the road during the playoffs which was unexpected income. Now they're crying poor, it's ridiculous. So who are they saving the $ for? I'm just waiting for this to come up again when Trea and Soto are free agents, they never seem to want to keep their hitters. Saving it for their pockets... If the Padres can figure out how to get someone to take Wil Myers contract which may be trading some prospects with him I think they'd fully want to bring Strasburg home.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 12:44:58 GMT -5
The Lerners are the richest owners, or one of, in baseball and they run the Nats like a mom and pop organization. Granted, they just won the World Series but this is the same song and dance we've seen from them since they bought the team. The thinking was they didn't pay Harper b/c they had Strasburg and Rendon as free agents to be. Now there's a report they can only keep 1. This team made a shit ton of playoff money, they had watch parties when the team was on the road during the playoffs which was unexpected income. Now they're crying poor, it's ridiculous. So who are they saving the $ for? I'm just waiting for this to come up again when Trea and Soto are free agents, they never seem to want to keep their hitters. Just because you have the money doesn't mean they should spend $200 million a piece on two players Cant call them cheap or faking poor when they have spent money, they said they can't afford both, they plan to keep one
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 12:47:21 GMT -5
The Lerners are the richest owners, or one of, in baseball and they run the Nats like a mom and pop organization. Granted, they just won the World Series but this is the same song and dance we've seen from them since they bought the team. The thinking was they didn't pay Harper b/c they had Strasburg and Rendon as free agents to be. Now there's a report they can only keep 1. This team made a shit ton of playoff money, they had watch parties when the team was on the road during the playoffs which was unexpected income. Now they're crying poor, it's ridiculous. So who are they saving the $ for? I'm just waiting for this to come up again when Trea and Soto are free agents, they never seem to want to keep their hitters. Just because you have the money doesn't mean they should spend $200 million a piece on two players Cant call them cheap or faking poor when they have spent money, they said they can't afford both, they plan to keep one My issue with it is simple, if you don't want to pay them fine. Just say that, don't act like you financially can't do it. All baseball teams 100% act like they have less money than they actually do.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 12:51:22 GMT -5
Just because you have the money doesn't mean they should spend $200 million a piece on two players Cant call them cheap or faking poor when they have spent money, they said they can't afford both, they plan to keep one My issue with it is simple, if you don't want to pay them fine. Just say that, don't act like you financially can't do it. All baseball teams 100% act like they have less money than they actually do. It’s not about wanting it’s about the price tag. They have literally handed out multiple $100 mill plus contracts. I don’t see it being cheap knowing that Rendon is going to cost you $200 mill and Strausburg $150 mill They have been willing to spend money multiple times, I don’t see it unreasonable not wanting to overspend on two players knowing you have talent like Turner and Soto you want to sign who will also cost you
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 12:55:45 GMT -5
My issue with it is simple, if you don't want to pay them fine. Just say that, don't act like you financially can't do it. All baseball teams 100% act like they have less money than they actually do. It’s not about wanting it’s about the price tag. They have literally handed out multiple $100 mill plus contracts. I don’t see it being cheap knowing that Rendon is going to cost you $200 mill and Strausburg $150 mill They have been willing to spend money multiple times, I don’t see it unreasonable not wanting to overspend on two players knowing you have talent like Turner and Soto you want to sign who will also cost you But teams cry poor, when they aren't poor and could 100% keep players. The Indians are doing it with Lindor, you gonna tell me a team with a 282 million dollar profit that is worth a billion dollars can't keep it's best player?
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 13:19:18 GMT -5
It’s not about wanting it’s about the price tag. They have literally handed out multiple $100 mill plus contracts. I don’t see it being cheap knowing that Rendon is going to cost you $200 mill and Strausburg $150 mill They have been willing to spend money multiple times, I don’t see it unreasonable not wanting to overspend on two players knowing you have talent like Turner and Soto you want to sign who will also cost you But teams cry poor, when they aren't poor and could 100% keep players. The Indians are doing it with Lindor, you gonna tell me a team with a 282 million dollar profit that is worth a billion dollars can't keep it's best player? That situation is different tho Indians don't pay anybody. The Nats do. It is not crying poor when you don't want to spend close to $400 mill on two players. Fans are smart, they know how financials work and know the unofficial luxury cap the MLB has Don't compare your team to someone else. Add on the fact that Max contract is coming up soon as well within a year or two and even at an older age he we still cost a good bit annually. Just because my team is worth a billion doesn't mean i'm going to invest one billion in it, that's idiocy They reportedly offered Bryce $300 million. They offered Rendon a 7 year deal for $210-$215 mill this year. To say they are crying poor is false. They have put the money out there and them saying they don't want to add 2 major financial commitments to two players shouldn't be seen as cheap
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domrep
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Post by domrep on Dec 6, 2019 13:24:05 GMT -5
My issue with it is simple, if you don't want to pay them fine. Just say that, don't act like you financially can't do it. All baseball teams 100% act like they have less money than they actually do. It’s not about wanting it’s about the price tag. They have literally handed out multiple $100 mill plus contracts. I don’t see it being cheap knowing that Rendon is going to cost you $200 mill and Strausburg $150 mill They have been willing to spend money multiple times, I don’t see it unreasonable not wanting to overspend on two players knowing you have talent like Turner and Soto you want to sign who will also cost you The thing is, it'd be one thing if they were saving money to keep one of their guys but it just seems like they're saving the money to not do anything else with it. If Strasburg signs for like $25 mil per, it's essentially replacing his current contract with added years. There's no savings there b/c it was money that they had projected to pay if he hadn't opted out. Rendon made $18 million this past season, he's probably getting an $8 million per year increase and it's reported he doesn't want those 10-13 year deals but maybe 5 year deal with a high AAV. These are pennies. I honestly can't remember the last time they actually spent $100 million+ on a hitter that wasn't Werth or Zimmerman. Yet they always seem to find $175 million to sign Patrick Corbin. Again, they just won it all so the process worked, but it's hard to stay invested in the team when they're just letting their best players walk every year.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 13:36:04 GMT -5
It’s not about wanting it’s about the price tag. They have literally handed out multiple $100 mill plus contracts. I don’t see it being cheap knowing that Rendon is going to cost you $200 mill and Strausburg $150 mill They have been willing to spend money multiple times, I don’t see it unreasonable not wanting to overspend on two players knowing you have talent like Turner and Soto you want to sign who will also cost you The thing is, it'd be one thing if they were saving money to keep one of their guys but it just seems like they're saving the money to not do anything else with it. If Strasburg signs for like $25 mil per, it's essentially replacing his current contract with added years. There's no savings there b/c it was money that they had projected to pay if he hadn't opted out. Rendon made $18 million this past season, he's probably getting an $8 million per year increase and it's reported he doesn't want those 10-13 year deals but maybe 5 year deal with a high AAV. These are pennies. I honestly can't remember the last time they actually spent $100 million+ on a hitter that wasn't Werth or Zimmerman. Yet they always seem to find $175 million to sign Patrick Corbin. Again, they just won it all so the process worked, but it's hard to stay invested in the team when they're just letting their best players walk every year. But they didn't let them walk. That is FALSE. They offered contracts that the players did not want 7 years for $210 is $30 AAV. Giving Strausburg $150 mill over 5 is $25 AAV. Add on to the $35 Max already makes AAV and Corbin contract goes up every year and is at $20 mill for this year. That is $110 mill for just 5 players with a full roster to fill out. Add on Eaton is going to make $10, Suzuki $6, Dolittle $6.5, Sanchez $7 With no disrespect I feel like this is the purest definition of being a fan. Nothing matters except the now, not the long term ramifications and what is actually smart financially. If they were acting like the Rays, Pirates, Indians etc where they are counting pennies and trading players without even offering them a contract you'd have a point but the Nats have gone above and beyond in that aspect. They have offered deals and stay competitive every year. Winning the WS doesn't make them a perennial contender and they shouldn't spend like they have a dynasty on their hands
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 14:09:25 GMT -5
How much profit are the Nationals turning? I'm assuming it's a lot....The Yankees could do a 400 mill payroll and make money.
Here is what is really going on, teams choose not to pay guys because well they'd rather pocket that money. The idea that a team that makes as much as Boston is entertaining trading Mookie Betts is a joke of epic proportions. But they can get away with it and lots of fans will buy into these narratives for 1 simple reason...I'd wager about 80% of fans think players make to much money, when in reality when you see these profits and team values I could argue the players are actually underpaid.
I sit in KC and I see a moronic team that let it's entire World Series team leave because they were cheap, they cried poor about it when in reality every single team in baseball could rock a 175 million dollar payroll and not lose money. I don't care if Washington doesn't want to pay their guys, I just think it's a bit comical for a team that probably makes 350 million dollars a year in profit to say they can't afford to keep both of those players. Is that because instead of 350 million a year you'll make 300? I mean it's hard for me to feel bad about rich old guys wanting to be more rich and being critical of that.
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domrep
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Post by domrep on Dec 6, 2019 14:17:35 GMT -5
The thing is, it'd be one thing if they were saving money to keep one of their guys but it just seems like they're saving the money to not do anything else with it. If Strasburg signs for like $25 mil per, it's essentially replacing his current contract with added years. There's no savings there b/c it was money that they had projected to pay if he hadn't opted out. Rendon made $18 million this past season, he's probably getting an $8 million per year increase and it's reported he doesn't want those 10-13 year deals but maybe 5 year deal with a high AAV. These are pennies. I honestly can't remember the last time they actually spent $100 million+ on a hitter that wasn't Werth or Zimmerman. Yet they always seem to find $175 million to sign Patrick Corbin. Again, they just won it all so the process worked, but it's hard to stay invested in the team when they're just letting their best players walk every year. But they didn't let them walk. That is FALSE. They offered contracts that the players did not want 7 years for $210 is $30 AAV. Giving Strausburg $150 mill over 5 is $25 AAV. Add on to the $35 Max already makes AAV and Corbin contract goes up every year and is at $20 mill for this year. That is $110 mill for just 5 players with a full roster to fill out. Add on Eaton is going to make $10, Suzuki $6, Dolittle $6.5, Sanchez $7 With no disrespect I feel like this is the purest definition of being a fan. Nothing matters except the now, not the long term ramifications and what is actually smart financially. If they were acting like the Rays, Pirates, Indians etc where they are counting pennies and trading players without even offering them a contract you'd have a point but the Nats have gone above and beyond in that aspect. They have offered deals and stay competitive every year. Winning the WS doesn't make them a perennial contender and they shouldn't spend like they have a dynasty on their hands As someone who didn't think Harper was worth $300 million, their offer was strictly public fan service to show people "hey we're trying." A significant portion of that amount would have been deferred which is something the Nationals love to do. I've been a fan of this team since Day 1, I think the way they run their operations is to use the time they have the player under control to maximize their opportunity to win. They overpaid for Werth b/c they had to, they were showing promise and needed to make a big splash to jump to the next level. The Zimmerman extension was horrendous b/c he still had years on his deal and he was getting hurt, but even then the extension didn't really break the bank. Rendon was drafted and developed by the team and now they're letting him go. What does that tell the fanbase? This will be the 2nd straight year they've lost a guy they drafted and developed. Trea is coming up on an extension too, will the same thing happen to him? Trea ain't going to be cheap. Soto? The way he's playing he's going to get a $200 million contract. Robles? What is the 'long term' goal here if you're just letting players slip away? Nats have the richest owners in the game, are in a strong market, and are penny pinching. I'm not saying they need to be like the Steinbrenner Yankees but holy shit, keep your home grown talent lol.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 14:19:44 GMT -5
But they didn't let them walk. That is FALSE. They offered contracts that the players did not want 7 years for $210 is $30 AAV. Giving Strausburg $150 mill over 5 is $25 AAV. Add on to the $35 Max already makes AAV and Corbin contract goes up every year and is at $20 mill for this year. That is $110 mill for just 5 players with a full roster to fill out. Add on Eaton is going to make $10, Suzuki $6, Dolittle $6.5, Sanchez $7 With no disrespect I feel like this is the purest definition of being a fan. Nothing matters except the now, not the long term ramifications and what is actually smart financially. If they were acting like the Rays, Pirates, Indians etc where they are counting pennies and trading players without even offering them a contract you'd have a point but the Nats have gone above and beyond in that aspect. They have offered deals and stay competitive every year. Winning the WS doesn't make them a perennial contender and they shouldn't spend like they have a dynasty on their hands As someone who didn't think Harper was worth $300 million, their offer was strictly public fan service to show people "hey we're trying." A significant portion of that amount would have been deferred which is something the Nationals love to do. I've been a fan of this team since Day 1, I think the way they run their operations is to use the time they have the player under control to maximize their opportunity to win. They overpaid for Werth b/c they had to, they were showing promise and needed to make a big splash to jump to the next level. The Zimmerman extension was horrendous b/c he still had years on his deal and he was getting hurt, but even then the extension didn't really break the bank. Rendon was drafted and developed by the team and now they're letting him go. What does that tell the fanbase? This will be the 2nd straight year they've lost a guy they drafted and developed. Trea is coming up on an extension too, will the same thing happen to him? Trea ain't going to be cheap. Soto? The way he's playing he's going to get a $200 million contract. Robles? What is the 'long term' goal here if you're just letting players slip away? Nats have the richest owners in the game, are in a strong market, and are penny pinching. I'm not saying they need to be like the Steinbrenner Yankees but holy shit, keep your home grown talent lol. Even big market teams are selling to their fan bases they can't keep all their players if they develop several stars. Look at Boston they are basically setting the stage that they won't keep Mookie Betts.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 14:47:08 GMT -5
But they didn't let them walk. That is FALSE. They offered contracts that the players did not want 7 years for $210 is $30 AAV. Giving Strausburg $150 mill over 5 is $25 AAV. Add on to the $35 Max already makes AAV and Corbin contract goes up every year and is at $20 mill for this year. That is $110 mill for just 5 players with a full roster to fill out. Add on Eaton is going to make $10, Suzuki $6, Dolittle $6.5, Sanchez $7 With no disrespect I feel like this is the purest definition of being a fan. Nothing matters except the now, not the long term ramifications and what is actually smart financially. If they were acting like the Rays, Pirates, Indians etc where they are counting pennies and trading players without even offering them a contract you'd have a point but the Nats have gone above and beyond in that aspect. They have offered deals and stay competitive every year. Winning the WS doesn't make them a perennial contender and they shouldn't spend like they have a dynasty on their hands As someone who didn't think Harper was worth $300 million, their offer was strictly public fan service to show people "hey we're trying." A significant portion of that amount would have been deferred which is something the Nationals love to do. I've been a fan of this team since Day 1, I think the way they run their operations is to use the time they have the player under control to maximize their opportunity to win. They overpaid for Werth b/c they had to, they were showing promise and needed to make a big splash to jump to the next level. The Zimmerman extension was horrendous b/c he still had years on his deal and he was getting hurt, but even then the extension didn't really break the bank. Rendon was drafted and developed by the team and now they're letting him go. What does that tell the fanbase? This will be the 2nd straight year they've lost a guy they drafted and developed. Trea is coming up on an extension too, will the same thing happen to him? Trea ain't going to be cheap. Soto? The way he's playing he's going to get a $200 million contract. Robles? What is the 'long term' goal here if you're just letting players slip away? Nats have the richest owners in the game, are in a strong market, and are penny pinching. I'm not saying they need to be like the Steinbrenner Yankees but holy shit, keep your home grown talent lol. Tho whether it is overpaid or a bad extension they still spend money is my major point. I just don't see penny pinching when you have offered $200 and $300 million contracts The ultimate plan is to be financially responsible. I said already they need to jump on Soto and give him the same deal Acuna Jr got but with Boras as his agent that isn't happening. Trea is going to cost $120 mill most likely. The Nats constantly spend money every year and I don't put Harper leaving on the owners. This team has been built to succeed for 7 years and they underachieved until they overachieved this year. Are the owners trying to devalue mid level players, yes of course. From my perspective, the WS title is great but is not an indication that this is a team that can do this every year. If I offered up $210 to Rendon and he wants to leave than so be it. I don't even personally think he is worth $200 mill. Fans may not like it but I really just can't see myself paying for those 2. That doesn't mean i'm not going to find an adequate replacement but that chunk of change is a little high and ultimately it is not always the owners to blame.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 6, 2019 14:48:04 GMT -5
People forget that while there's no true salary cap in baseball, the luxury tax thresholds are penalizing enough that organizations, even the ones who spend tons of money like the Yankees and Dodgers, aren't going to want to go over it.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 6, 2019 15:01:52 GMT -5
People forget that while there's no true salary cap in baseball, the luxury tax thresholds are penalizing enough that organizations, even the ones who spend tons of money like the Yankees and Dodgers, aren't going to want to go over it. Which is the point I was trying to make it earlier Yankees are penny pinching because they don't want to go over that threshold knowing once they sign Judge, Sanchez, majority of the young guys to premium contracts, they are going to be f***ed paying penalties for a few years Teams are staying under that requirement for as long as possible because after 3 years of penalties I believe you are essentially paying $100 mill in penalties on top of your $200 mill plus payroll Somewhat similar to the NBA and how that has a salary cap and a hard cap and once you blow threw those you are f**ed. Gilbert paid a ton of money in his 4 years of LBJ return but he was able to get a portion back
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Post by Cyno on Dec 6, 2019 15:32:09 GMT -5
People forget that while there's no true salary cap in baseball, the luxury tax thresholds are penalizing enough that organizations, even the ones who spend tons of money like the Yankees and Dodgers, aren't going to want to go over it. Which is the point I was trying to make it earlier Yankees are penny pinching because they don't want to go over that threshold knowing once they sign Judge, Sanchez, majority of the young guys to premium contracts, they are going to be f***ed paying penalties for a few years Teams are staying under that requirement for as long as possible because after 3 years of penalties I believe you are essentially paying $100 mill in penalties on top of your $200 mill plus payroll Somewhat similar to the NBA and how that has a salary cap and a hard cap and once you blow threw those you are f**ed. Gilbert paid a ton of money in his 4 years of LBJ return but he was able to get a portion back Yeah, even for the super rich, that's a lot of money to eat up unnecessarily. It's a salary cap in all but name. Yanks also had an albatross contract in Ellsbury on the books and now they have Stanton doing the same.
Though for the Yankees right now, it's more about years than pure money right now. For the reasons you mentioned and also because statistics tell you that the last years of these big long-term deals are f***ing terrible.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Dec 6, 2019 15:34:20 GMT -5
In reality if they are going to have any type of cap at all the players should be pushing for a salary floor.
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