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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on May 9, 2019 0:28:35 GMT -5
I want to know what was in the box Gino hid in his mother’s house. I was surprised they didn’t follow up on that.
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Post by zero744 on May 9, 2019 7:17:09 GMT -5
About twenty years ago, there was a documentary released called Faded Glory, about the Von Erichs. It was a fluff piece, really adhering the VE's way things went down over the years. Anyway, at the end of it, Kevin is talking about his kids, who were small children at the time and talks about how he doesn't want them going into the business and he doesn't want them following in his footsteps. Here's the thing though - the entire time he is saying this, the doc is showing footage of him in his backyard, showing his boys how to perform powerbombs on one another while they play on a trampoline... It's a weird position to be in. If you basically say "Never shall you wrestle, I forbid it" then you're basically inviting them to go do it out of spite. The sons recently signed with MLW |
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on May 9, 2019 7:53:14 GMT -5
The differences in Gino’s autopsy report was some pretty chilling stuff too.
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Post by Prince Petty on May 9, 2019 9:23:49 GMT -5
Watching the Screwjob episode, and I'm amused at the sheer amount of carny BS on display - Prichard, Cornette, Bischoff, Hebner and Russo. Good grief.
Amusingly ironic highlight - Cornette saying that Bret took himself too seriously just minutes before blathering about how the Curtain Call incident "broke the code of kayfabe!" and how Bret "exposed the business."
I find the Bret/Shawn rivalry in its entirety to be far more interesting than the Screwjob itself. The clash of egos, the paranoia and suspicion, the sheer disdain they each had for one another. So I'm glad they devoted a good portion of this episode to that rivalry, with Vince as a minor background figure. Watching clips from 1996 onward always makes me remember just how much I f***ing loathed Shawn Michaels back then. God, I wanted nothing more than to see him get his head kicked in, every moment he was onscreen.
I absolutely believe Bret when he says he'd have happily dropped the title to anyone else. Vince's insistence of going straight from Bret to Shawn (probably with Shawn's urging) was so dumb, in hindsight. The relationship was just too toxic for egos to be put aside. The idea that no one, amongst all these supposedly creative minds, thought to change Bret's opponent, or add Taker or Shamrock or anyone else, to make it a triple threat, is ridiculous.
I'm not sure I buy that Cornette was the guy who came up with the screwjob. Especially not by way of a lecture about double crosses in wrestling history. And I definitely don't buy that Russo came up with it. They're both bullshitters.
Scott Hall really believes it was a work? What a mark. If anyone thinks Bret was in on the thing, I'd like to hear them explain why he never revealed it, and I'd like to hear them explain why asshole, late-90s Shawn never revealed it when he was vilified in Canada.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
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Post by lucas_lee on May 9, 2019 10:18:38 GMT -5
Im glad thay Ginos mom found closure at least. She can let go from 30 years of pain. My personal theory about what happened: whomever he partied with and brought home, more than likely a few women. Partied back at his house and he OD'D. They freaked out and ran off.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 10:57:21 GMT -5
Watching the Screwjob episode, and I'm amused at the sheer amount of carny BS on display - Prichard, Cornette, Bischoff, Hebner and Russo. Good grief. Amusingly ironic highlight - Cornette saying that Bret took himself too seriously just minutes before blathering about how the Curtain Call incident "broke the code of kayfabe!" and how Bret "exposed the business." I find the Bret/Shawn rivalry in its entirety to be far more interesting than the Screwjob itself. The clash of egos, the paranoia and suspicion, the sheer disdain they each had for one another. So I'm glad they devoted a good portion of this episode to that rivalry, with Vince as a minor background figure. Watching clips from 1996 onward always makes me remember just how much I f***ing loathed Shawn Michaels back then. God, I wanted nothing more than to see him get his head kicked in, every moment he was onscreen. I absolutely believe Bret when he says he'd have happily dropped the title to anyone else. Vince's insistence of going straight from Bret to Shawn (probably with Shawn's urging) was so dumb, in hindsight. The relationship was just too toxic for egos to be put aside. The idea that no one, amongst all these supposedly creative minds, thought to change Bret's opponent, or add Taker or Shamrock or anyone else, to make it a triple threat, is ridiculous. I'm not sure I buy that Cornette was the guy who came up with the screwjob. Especially not by way of a lecture about double crosses in wrestling history. And I definitely don't buy that Russo came up with it. They're both bullshitters. Scott Hall really believes it was a work? What a mark. If anyone thinks Bret was in on the thing, I'd like to hear them explain why he never revealed it, and I'd like to hear them explain why asshole, late-90s Shawn never revealed it when he was vilified in Canada. Last weekend or so, my dad and I watched a few eps of Dark Side before this one came up. Y'know, the episodes that were about people dying. 5 minutes into this one, I looked at him and said "This is just embarrassing insider stuff to watch with a regular non-insider fan." He replied, "Yeah, I get it. Let's watch another one about people dying."  |
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domrep
Hank Scorpio
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Post by domrep on May 9, 2019 11:30:45 GMT -5
Watching the Screwjob episode, and I'm amused at the sheer amount of carny BS on display - Prichard, Cornette, Bischoff, Hebner and Russo. Good grief. Amusingly ironic highlight - Cornette saying that Bret took himself too seriously just minutes before blathering about how the Curtain Call incident "broke the code of kayfabe!" and how Bret "exposed the business." I find the Bret/Shawn rivalry in its entirety to be far more interesting than the Screwjob itself. The clash of egos, the paranoia and suspicion, the sheer disdain they each had for one another. So I'm glad they devoted a good portion of this episode to that rivalry, with Vince as a minor background figure. Watching clips from 1996 onward always makes me remember just how much I f***ing loathed Shawn Michaels back then. God, I wanted nothing more than to see him get his head kicked in, every moment he was onscreen. I absolutely believe Bret when he says he'd have happily dropped the title to anyone else. Vince's insistence of going straight from Bret to Shawn (probably with Shawn's urging) was so dumb, in hindsight. The relationship was just too toxic for egos to be put aside. The idea that no one, amongst all these supposedly creative minds, thought to change Bret's opponent, or add Taker or Shamrock or anyone else, to make it a triple threat, is ridiculous. I'm not sure I buy that Cornette was the guy who came up with the screwjob. Especially not by way of a lecture about double crosses in wrestling history. And I definitely don't buy that Russo came up with it. They're both bullshitters. Scott Hall really believes it was a work? What a mark. If anyone thinks Bret was in on the thing, I'd like to hear them explain why he never revealed it, and I'd like to hear them explain why asshole, late-90s Shawn never revealed it when he was vilified in Canada. Cornette didn't come up with the finish, he suggested the idea of it but a) he never thought it would happen and b) Vince took it too far the other way. |
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Post by cabbageboy on May 9, 2019 13:04:34 GMT -5
I can see why the ratings are going up for this show, because as time has gone on they've gotten into darker and more mysterious territory, more haunting territory. They probably figured doing shows on Macho and Bret would have been to lure in viewers, but are we seriously trying to act like Bret Hart being double crossed and screwed out of a phony wrestling title carries the same weight as Bruiser Brody being stabbed to death? Or the Greek tragedy that is the Von Erich family?
Honestly I don't think the Gino episode really solved anything. I probably believed this Royal guy more than some anonymous goof who refused to go on record. But there's still no logical explanation for why he had 5x the lethal amount of coke in his system, or the weird and inconsistent autopsy notes, or anything. People know about the Von Erichs in terms of World Class's demise, but the death of Gino Hernandez was a terrible blow to the company as well. The documentary touched on this as well, since the Dynamic Duo had split with Adams going face during the whole blinding angle. From a booking standpoint that was going to be one of WCCW's big drawing angles in 1986 and it no doubt would have drawn. But you take that angle out of the picture, Kerry's motorcycle accident that led to his foot amputation, and the subsequent mass defections to the UWF from booker Ken Mantell and a lot of the World Class talent, and the end result was WCCW becoming a shell of itself.
It's interesting to speculate on Gino though. I doubt he would have been a WWF guy, since he just didn't have the size for it, but after the Adams feud what if he had jumped to the NWA and been in the 4 Horsemen with old tag partner Tully Blanchard? The guy seemed tailor made for that gimmick.
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Post by atgnatpodcast on May 9, 2019 15:44:49 GMT -5
I want to know what was in the box Gino hid in his mother’s house. I was surprised they didn’t follow up on that. A ton of coke And I agree with the poster above, I know Nothing about Gino, and never seem a match or promo, but this guy could’ve been a horsemen no doubt |
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on May 9, 2019 17:58:35 GMT -5
I want to know what was in the box Gino hid in his mother’s house. I was surprised they didn’t follow up on that. A ton of coke And I agree with the poster above, I know Nothing about Gino, and never seem a match or promo, but this guy could’ve been a horsemen no doubt He definitely could’ve been a horsemen. The original Dynamic Duo was Gino Hernandez and Tully Blanchard in Southwest Championship Wrestling in Houston. They were a heel horsemen type of act. You can find some of their stuff on YouTube. It’s really good. I always saw a little bit of Flair, Piper, Blanchard and DiBiase in him. The bragging, the arrogance, getting crowds to hate him, etc. He had all of those qualities. He was so good at being bad. He wasn’t a body guy but he didn’t need to be. That might have helped that he wasn’t because members of the audience probably thought they could kick his ass. That can add to the heat in a big way. I always watched The Legends of World Class Championship Wrestling Monday through Friday after school at 4 PM on ESPN. It was most of the footage from 1984 through 1988. It would be like watching a month of their television every week. I was going through years of content in hardly any time at all. It was all new to me. I was so spoiled by that show. It was so awesome. Gino Hernandez was a big part of why I enjoyed it so much. I was too young to know what happened to Gino so when they announced his passing on the show it was news to me and it crushed me. He was so talented. He’s definitely one of the biggest “what ifs” or “what could’ve been” wrestlers that passed too young that can really make you think. He could really capture your imagination and make you wonder what he’d do next. That’s such an underrated quality in a wrestler or any entertainer for that matter. |
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Post by corndog on May 10, 2019 0:19:03 GMT -5
I can see why the ratings are going up for this show, because as time has gone on they've gotten into darker and more mysterious territory, more haunting territory. They probably figured doing shows on Macho and Bret would have been to lure in viewers, but are we seriously trying to act like Bret Hart being double crossed and screwed out of a phony wrestling title carries the same weight as Bruiser Brody being stabbed to death? Or the Greek tragedy that is the Von Erich family? Honestly I don't think the Gino episode really solved anything. I probably believed this Royal guy more than some anonymous goof who refused to go on record. But there's still no logical explanation for why he had 5x the lethal amount of coke in his system, or the weird and inconsistent autopsy notes, or anything. People know about the Von Erichs in terms of World Class's demise, but the death of Gino Hernandez was a terrible blow to the company as well. The documentary touched on this as well, since the Dynamic Duo had split with Adams going face during the whole blinding angle. From a booking standpoint that was going to be one of WCCW's big drawing angles in 1986 and it no doubt would have drawn. But you take that angle out of the picture, Kerry's motorcycle accident that led to his foot amputation, and the subsequent mass defections to the UWF from booker Ken Mantell and a lot of the World Class talent, and the end result was WCCW becoming a shell of itself. It's interesting to speculate on Gino though. I doubt he would have been a WWF guy, since he just didn't have the size for it, but after the Adams feud what if he had jumped to the NWA and been in the 4 Horsemen with old tag partner Tully Blanchard? The guy seemed tailor made for that gimmick. He was doing a lot of coke at the time. I have heard of people that are hardcore alcoholics who get pulled over with well more than the lethal amount in their system, while they can actually walk and talk. Gino's body had probably built a strong tolerance to cocaine and it's why he can use so much without dying. Here is an article that basically says cocaine addicts can regularly consume five times the lethal amount on a regular basis. He had probably done that much cocaine before, but he had also consumed a lot of alcohol. drug.addictionblog.org/cocaine-overdose-how-much-amount-of-cocaine-to-overdose/I still won't write off murder as a possibility, but cocaine makes people paranoid and if he was doing as everyone was saying, I could definitely see how he could be that paranoid. Just read Nikki Sixx's heroin diaries, it made him so paranoid he would look himself in his closet with a gun. |
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ayumidah
Patti Mayonnaise
DOOM TIME!!!!!
Posts: 31,566
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Post by ayumidah on May 10, 2019 0:40:29 GMT -5
Yeah, it's the same thing experts said about the amount of drugs in Kurt Cobain's system at the time of his death as well.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 2:41:25 GMT -5
These are some great shows. I hope the series continues for a second "season" or whatever. There's plenty of more topics to be covered for something like this.
I really don't know what to make of the Gino Hernandez episode. They try to make it out like that guy John Royal had nothing to do with the death, and Gino's mom accepts it and decides to go get margaritas, but with the fishy autopsy information about a body that didn't match Gino's, that's very weird. And the whole thing about how he had like multiple times the lethal dose in his system points to foul play in some form being involved in his death.
They didn't include it in the doc, but the producers posted a video clip on social media about the rumor that Paul Boesch was Gino's father, with his mother saying it was ridiculous and she didn't even know who Paul Boesch was. But... historians have pointed to the fact that she was at all the wrestling shows around the time he was born, and was married to Jimmy Snuka at one point in time. So her honesty can be taken with a grain of salt.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on May 12, 2019 4:46:14 GMT -5
Watching the Screwjob episode, and I'm amused at the sheer amount of carny BS on display - Prichard, Cornette, Bischoff, Hebner and Russo. Good grief. Amusingly ironic highlight - Cornette saying that Bret took himself too seriously just minutes before blathering about how the Curtain Call incident "broke the code of kayfabe!" and how Bret "exposed the business." I find the Bret/Shawn rivalry in its entirety to be far more interesting than the Screwjob itself. The clash of egos, the paranoia and suspicion, the sheer disdain they each had for one another. So I'm glad they devoted a good portion of this episode to that rivalry, with Vince as a minor background figure. Watching clips from 1996 onward always makes me remember just how much I f***ing loathed Shawn Michaels back then. God, I wanted nothing more than to see him get his head kicked in, every moment he was onscreen. I absolutely believe Bret when he says he'd have happily dropped the title to anyone else. Vince's insistence of going straight from Bret to Shawn (probably with Shawn's urging) was so dumb, in hindsight. The relationship was just too toxic for egos to be put aside. The idea that no one, amongst all these supposedly creative minds, thought to change Bret's opponent, or add Taker or Shamrock or anyone else, to make it a triple threat, is ridiculous. I'm not sure I buy that Cornette was the guy who came up with the screwjob. Especially not by way of a lecture about double crosses in wrestling history. And I definitely don't buy that Russo came up with it. They're both bullshitters. Scott Hall really believes it was a work? What a mark. If anyone thinks Bret was in on the thing, I'd like to hear them explain why he never revealed it, and I'd like to hear them explain why asshole, late-90s Shawn never revealed it when he was vilified in Canada. Cornette didn't come up with the finish, he suggested the idea of it but a) he never thought it would happen and b) Vince took it too far the other way. Exactly. Ideally, when doing a double cross, it is supposed to be inconspicuous. But by Vince going out to ringside with Patterson, Slaughter, and Brisco, that (whether it was deliberate on Vince’s part or not) that screamed “WE ARE DOING SOMETHING”. |
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cosmo
Unicron
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Post by cosmo on May 12, 2019 5:03:48 GMT -5
Scott Hall really believes it was a work? What a mark. If anyone thinks Bret was in on the thing, I'd like to hear them explain why he never revealed it, and I'd like to hear them explain why asshole, late-90s Shawn never revealed it when he was vilified in Canada.
Cornette said on one of his podcasts that he doesn't think Hall really believes it was a work, but was more than likely asked to say it just to introduce the fact that some people actually have that theory.
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on May 12, 2019 15:10:41 GMT -5
These are some great shows. I hope the series continues for a second "season" or whatever. There's plenty of more topics to be covered for something like this. I really don't know what to make of the Gino Hernandez episode. They try to make it out like that guy John Royal had nothing to do with the death, and Gino's mom accepts it and decides to go get margaritas, but with the fishy autopsy information about a body that didn't match Gino's, that's very weird. And the whole thing about how he had like multiple times the lethal dose in his system points to foul play in some form being involved in his death. They didn't include it in the doc, but the producers posted a video clip on social media about the rumor that Paul Boesch was Gino's father, with his mother saying it was ridiculous and she didn't even know who Paul Boesch was. But... historians have pointed to the fact that she was at all the wrestling shows around the time he was born, and was married to Jimmy Snuka at one point in time. So her honesty can be taken with a grain of salt. When was she married to Jimmy Snuka? I never heard anything about that. |
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Post by Prince Petty on May 13, 2019 8:29:16 GMT -5
On to episode 3, now, the Bruiser Brody one. I've not seen a huge amount of footage of him in the past, just some clips from a couple of matches with Abdullah the Butcher. Seeing more here was eyeopening, because he was one genuinely intimidating guy. The energy of the Ultimate Warrior, but directed more belligerently to everyone around him, opponent and crowd. I can see exactly why he was such a draw.
Puerto Rico looks like it was an awful place to wrestle, both for the style that was expected, and the way the fans were so into the violence. I know that it was a good place to make money, but f*** that. I'm sure I've heard Pat Patterson say he never liked working there, regardless of the payoff. And what a sleazy, piece of shit place the WWC obviously was.
Carlos Colon and his cronies are scum, and the fact none of them ever paid for what they did is a disgrace. And how horrific for Brody's widow, to have to go and collect her husband's body, surrounded by the people who had him killed. Because Brody's friends were too busy getting the hell out of town.
The problem with interviewing guys from the 80s is that you never really know how much they're working you. Was Brody that stiff in the ring, or are these guys trying to keep some element of kayfabe? Some of them seem to have worked so much over the years, they don't even know what's true any more.
I guess it just confuses me as to why Brody wanted anything to do with Puerto Rico, especially when he was apparently so beloved in Japan. I've read that story that Gonzalez was invited to go and wrestle in Japan, in a feud to capitalise on his notoriety, but got wind that the invitation was prompted by the Yakuza, who wanted to kill him in revenge. I don't know how true it is.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2019 9:11:11 GMT -5
These are some great shows. I hope the series continues for a second "season" or whatever. There's plenty of more topics to be covered for something like this. I really don't know what to make of the Gino Hernandez episode. They try to make it out like that guy John Royal had nothing to do with the death, and Gino's mom accepts it and decides to go get margaritas, but with the fishy autopsy information about a body that didn't match Gino's, that's very weird. And the whole thing about how he had like multiple times the lethal dose in his system points to foul play in some form being involved in his death. They didn't include it in the doc, but the producers posted a video clip on social media about the rumor that Paul Boesch was Gino's father, with his mother saying it was ridiculous and she didn't even know who Paul Boesch was. But... historians have pointed to the fact that she was at all the wrestling shows around the time he was born, and was married to Jimmy Snuka at one point in time. So her honesty can be taken with a grain of salt. When was she married to Jimmy Snuka? I never heard anything about that. During the 70s. Meltzer covered it on his audio show the other day. |
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The Heenan Family
Unicron
I'm a legend in this sport. If you don't believe me, ask me.
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Post by The Heenan Family on May 19, 2019 9:51:40 GMT -5
So did anyone else watch the Moolah episode?
I came out of it with the same opinion I've had since the battle royal controversy. Basically she was greedy and because of that could act like a real ****, but too much crap gets piled on her and not enough on Buddy Lee, the promoters, and the credibility of the wrestlers.
The Montreal screwjob almost always (and rightfully so) gets framed as a conflict between Bret Hart and Vince McMahon. Shawn Michaels and Earl Hebner get heat, but it was a contract dispute turned ugly. It's the same with the Wendi Richter screwjob except people tend to push Vince into the background of it in favor of trashing Moolah. She did her job like Michaels, Hebner, and the ref in her match did, but it all somehow falls on her. The conflict between Wendi and Vince was noted in the episode, but it was an episode about the Fabulous Moolah and so it went on for ten minutes describing Moolah's evil trick. Princess Victoria doesn't believe Wendi when she says she didn't know it was Moolah and I tend to agree with her. In the same episode Wendi goes on about how often she wrestled Moolah that year and how Moolah was always around to get her cut. But Richter and the lack of a documentary crew following Vince and company backstage that month I guess help shape the narrative.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on May 19, 2019 10:57:26 GMT -5
I thought the Moolah episode was the weakest, and left a lot unsaid, including the stuff with Mad Maxine, the Jumping Bomb Angels.
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