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Post by HMARK Center on May 18, 2019 6:27:44 GMT -5
I think you mean Saturn. Raven never held the TV title. raven did have a cool run with the US title. And lost the title to Goldberg in a savage no DQ match iirc Believe it or not, Raven held the belt for one day; he beat DDP for it at Spring Stampede 1998, and dropped it to Goldberg the next night...come to think of it, Savage beat Sting for the World title on the same show, and dropped it to Hogan the next night. Still, while Raven never had a lengthy reign with any title, he was still highly featured and made into a notable WCW name, so it didn't feel like he was being utterly wasted. Obviously the glass ceiling that the political scene of the company created did a ton of damage, but a lot of these guys still came off as stars, nevertheless. |
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Post by Hobby Drifter on May 18, 2019 7:37:59 GMT -5
raven did have a cool run with the US title. And lost the title to Goldberg in a savage no DQ match iirc Believe it or not, Raven held the belt for one day; he beat DDP for it at Spring Stampede 1998, and dropped it to Goldberg the next night...come to think of it, Savage beat Sting for the World title on the same show, and dropped it to Hogan the next night. Still, while Raven never had a lengthy reign with any title, he was still highly featured and made into a notable WCW name, so it didn't feel like he was being utterly wasted. Obviously the glass ceiling that the political scene of the company created did a ton of damage, but a lot of these guys still came off as stars, nevertheless. The "glass ceiling" that WCW was known for seems laughable these days, doesn't it? And while a bunch of guys never got as high as they should have, at least they were super well compensated for their time and effort. WWE always points to Jericho as an example of smaller guys who WCW never pushed getting over. But Jericho is the exception to the rule and it's not like his early WWF days went especially well. The other "small" guy that got over in WWE was Eddie Guerrero and that was only after he got so huge that it literally killed him. Go ahead and ask any WWE midcarder if they would prefer their current situation or 1997's WCW. |
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Post by crashmatsbazz on May 18, 2019 7:52:00 GMT -5
Not until they come up with a wacky mascot roaming through the crowd that no one talks about will they have truely turned. What do you call No Way Jose? touché |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 18, 2019 8:26:28 GMT -5
Believe it or not, Raven held the belt for one day; he beat DDP for it at Spring Stampede 1998, and dropped it to Goldberg the next night...come to think of it, Savage beat Sting for the World title on the same show, and dropped it to Hogan the next night. Still, while Raven never had a lengthy reign with any title, he was still highly featured and made into a notable WCW name, so it didn't feel like he was being utterly wasted. Obviously the glass ceiling that the political scene of the company created did a ton of damage, but a lot of these guys still came off as stars, nevertheless. The "glass ceiling" that WCW was known for seems laughable these days, doesn't it? And while a bunch of guys never got as high as they should have, at least they were super well compensated for their time and effort. WWE always points to Jericho as an example of smaller guys who WCW never pushed getting over. But Jericho is the exception to the rule and it's not like his early WWF days went especially well. The other "small" guy that got over in WWE was Eddie Guerrero and that was only after he got so huge that it literally killed him. Go ahead and ask any WWE midcarder if they would prefer their current situation or 1997's WCW. Yeah, the more distant I am from it and the more of the TV from that time I watch, the more I realise that people like Mojo or No Way Jose or the Colons would kill to be as 'misused' as the Radicalz or Jericho were in WCW. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 18, 2019 9:07:18 GMT -5
Yeah, we shouldn't minimize how poisonous WCW's backstage scene apparently was, and I'm sure a lot of the wrestlers were very put off by those politics leading to diminishing ratings/ticket sales/etc. as 1998 wore into 1999, all while WWF was riding high. At the same time, WCW did have a lot of money to throw around, plus a much easier road schedule than WWF, and yeah, they did end up having a lot of midcarders who made solid names for themselves (though, granted, a whole lot who never got a chance to get more over than they were).
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
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Post by adamclark52 on May 18, 2019 9:46:26 GMT -5
I just have to echo the same sentiments that current WWE to 1999-2000 WCW were different kinds of “bad”.
WCW then was probably worse. Those were some bad shows. Just watch New Blood Rising. Plus, WWF was really good at the time so that made WCW look even worse.
WWE now is just tired and bored. It doesn’t even want to be there.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 18, 2019 10:53:49 GMT -5
I just have to echo the same sentiments that current WWE to 1999-2000 WCW were different kinds of “bad”. WCW then was probably worse. Those were some bad shows. Just watch New Blood Rising. Plus, WWF was really good at the time so that made WCW look even worse. WWE now is just tired and bored. It doesn’t even want to be there. But even shows like New Blood Rising made very different mistakes. WWE have much better wrestling matches but the wrong people winning almost all of them. WCW by New Blood Rising were at least letting young heels (my phone corrected that to 'geeks' which is hilarious) win almost all the matches to get their angle over. I mean, it failed spectacularly and both methods will get nobody over, but they are different types of trash. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 18, 2019 11:09:00 GMT -5
I just have to echo the same sentiments that current WWE to 1999-2000 WCW were different kinds of “bad”. WCW then was probably worse. Those were some bad shows. Just watch New Blood Rising. Plus, WWF was really good at the time so that made WCW look even worse. WWE now is just tired and bored. It doesn’t even want to be there. But even shows like New Blood Rising made very different mistakes. WWE have much better wrestling matches but the wrong people winning almost all of them. WCW by New Blood Rising were at least letting young heels (my phone corrected that to 'geeks' which is hilarious) win almost all the matches to get their angle over. I mean, it failed spectacularly and both methods will get nobody over, but they are different types of trash. I think part of the reason Russo got work for so long is that he could sell people on his broad vision, since on the surface what he was saying often made sense: "Bro, let's play off the real life drama and tension between the vets and the younger/less known guys in the locker room and make an angle out of it, we'll have a whole new generation of stars and tons of matches with the type of heat that fans will buy into as real, it writes itself, bro!" Then you'd see how he intended going about doing it, you'd see the actual match quality involved (or lack thereof), the ridiculous gimmicks and swerves, the edgy content for the sake of being edgy instead of serving a purpose, etc., and only then would you realize the extent of the mistake you made. |
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on May 18, 2019 11:15:42 GMT -5
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Post by Hit Girl on May 18, 2019 11:24:30 GMT -5
When they oversaturated their product and refused to build new stars.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 11:55:12 GMT -5
Legitimate contender for worst match I've ever seen in the WWE. The infamous Jackie Gayda match was short and she at least had the excuse of being green. Here we have four 20+ year veterans embarassing themselves at a snail's pace, then there's the monkey wrench of Trips getting hurt thrown into a machine that was already off-track and sputtering. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 18, 2019 12:09:46 GMT -5
Legitimate contender for worst match I've ever seen in the WWE. The infamous Jackie Gayda match was short and she at least had the excuse of being green. Here we have four 20+ year veterans embarassing themselves at a snail's pace, then there's the monkey wrench of Trips getting hurt thrown into a machine that was already off-track and sputtering. It’s f***ing rubbish for sure, but I’ll always have a fondness for it since it was a massive laugh I needed right after a tough time in my real life. |
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
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Post by schma on May 18, 2019 13:59:27 GMT -5
Now the question is, will they hit end days WCW where they actually start making an effort to build up their current crop of stars. As mentioned above WCW did it in a clumsy fashion but I can appreciate that toward the end they were specifically making a push to build up new guys and phase the older dudes out or move them down the card. They were starting to right the ship as it were. If they'd survived a few more years, their legacy would not be nearly as tarnished as it is. So will WWE eventually realize they need to build up their current generation? Cena has been giving out a lot of wins the past few years but really he's about the only one. Then again most of the highly established vets are part-timers so it's a bit different.
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Optimax
Mephisto
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Post by Optimax on May 18, 2019 20:37:28 GMT -5
raven did have a cool run with the US title. And lost the title to Goldberg in a savage no DQ match iirc Believe it or not, Raven held the belt for one day; he beat DDP for it at Spring Stampede 1998, and dropped it to Goldberg the next night...come to think of it, Savage beat Sting for the World title on the same show, and dropped it to Hogan the next night. Still, while Raven never had a lengthy reign with any title, he was still highly featured and made into a notable WCW name, so it didn't feel like he was being utterly wasted. Obviously the glass ceiling that the political scene of the company created did a ton of damage, but a lot of these guys still came off as stars, nevertheless. Really? It doesn't surprise me, but younger me remembered Raven being champion for a while! |
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
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Post by EyeofTyr on May 18, 2019 20:42:33 GMT -5
2002
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on May 18, 2019 20:45:23 GMT -5
That was the year of the NWO's WWE debut, after all.  |
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EyeofTyr
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Strange and Mystical
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Post by EyeofTyr on May 18, 2019 20:47:12 GMT -5
That was the year of the NWO's WWE debut, after all. It's also when WWE first started making some of the big mistakes WCW used to and would eventually help lead to WCW's downturn and in time downfall. Booking issues that still plague WWE now, albeit have become even more glaring in time. |
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on May 18, 2019 22:59:46 GMT -5
Legitimate contender for worst match I've ever seen in the WWE. The infamous Jackie Gayda match was short and she at least had the excuse of being green. Here we have four 20+ year veterans embarassing themselves at a snail's pace, then there's the monkey wrench of Trips getting hurt thrown into a machine that was already off-track and sputtering. The WWE sold their souls for this money maker and they’re doing it again with Taker/Goldberg which is going to be an embarrassment |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on May 18, 2019 23:02:22 GMT -5
When WCW folded.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on May 19, 2019 3:04:46 GMT -5
There's some kind of wrestling curse.
WCW could have and should have put the WWF out of business by 2005. It would have been better for everyone. But, possibly because everyone in wrestling is nuts, they just couldn't help making enough mistakes to get some higher ups at their parent company to just cut 'em loose.
WCW pushed older stars instead of young talent. This is true. But they DID interesting things with those older stars. They made Hogan must-see years after everyone thought they were sick of him. The same was true of guys like Savage, Flair, Sting, and the rest. They did cool stuff with them and their success not only put butts in the seats, but legit had a pretty good trickle-down effect on those in the mid and lower cards. And, it cannot be said enough, WCW's "older stars" weren't nearly as old, then, as WWE's are *now*. Hulk Hogan was in his *early 40's* when the nWo started.
While the smaller guys may not have been getting runs with the WCW Championship, they were getting paid. They didn't have nearly the insane travel schedule that WWE people have now. And they weren't usually squashed. They had compelling matches that were allowed to have actual endings instead of seemingly every other match ending in some weird DQ. And in most cases, WCW didn't *own* their characters. WCW talent were able to keep their real names or ring names before and after they worked for the company.
They collapsed under their own weight because they made several bad decisions in quick succession, but WCW could have pulled through.
The WWF was considered the "land of opportunity" for disillusioned WCW mid-carders, but how many of them went on to have good WWF runs? Austin, Foley, Big Show, Jericho, Guerrero, and that other guy. And of those six, Big Show was a freaking giant, Eddie had to get so buff that he died, Foley destroyed himself, and the WWE road schedule likely wasn't a non-factor in what happened to that other guy.
When WCW signed former WWF guys, they gave us the NWO. Ex WWF guys got money, pushes, character development, and most didn't wind up completely destroying themselves. Apologies to Bret Hart who didn't get all of those.
WWE is like some uber-WCW. They make all the same mistakes, exponentially worse, but they survive because all the hits are absorbed by the talent and the guy on top keeps on getting that money.
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