Finished a Watchmen re-read today.

[Raskovnik]

Haven't read it since I was 15-16 and stumbled upon my copy while moving into my new place. What a book. I liked it plenty when I was younger but I didn't "get" some of the things, such as the Tales of the Black Freighter, Sally Jupiter/The Comedian's relationship, and basically the entire crux of Doctor Manhattan's character.  I chalk a lot of it up to just not quite being fully aware of all the historical references and not yet having the life experience to understand these very flawed and very human characters. Doctor Manhattan in particular was a revelation for me this go around. He went from being perhaps my least favorite character, albeit one I thought was good, to being one of my favorites in all of media. And the whole damn cast is just so good. Anyone else re-read this one lately?

[Ultimo Gallos]

Been meaning to re-read it this year. But I have read it usually once a year since it was being published almost monthly by DC. I was 11 and 12 when it was coming out and lots of it went way over my head.

Feels like each time I read it I noticed something I didn't notice before. Stuff like the issue that is mirror image I didn't notice until my 3rd reading.

What shocks me is people that read it then skip all the text pieces in each issue. The text pieces are very important to the story and by not reading them you miss so much.

[Deleted]

I haven't read it in about 10 years, but I plan to give it a re-read once Doomsday Clock finishes (which I haven't read yet) and then read them back to back.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I go back to it now and then, and it’s still a really detailed and smart story. It isn’t my favorite Alan Moore work- I kinda prefer Tom Strong, Miracleman and For The Man Who Has Everything over it, but I still enjoy it.

It’s a pity Moore can’t rock with comic book films, because he’s a great director of comics panel by panel (apparently there’s pages and pages of notes for his artists, and he always picks ultra-sharp artists who are great with expressions, like Dave Gibbons, John Totleben, Brian Bolland, etc.)

The Watchmen movie is okay for what it is, but the aftermath of Ozymandias’ plan in the book and how well that horror was drawn is way more intense and affecting.

[Ultimo Gallos]

Out of Moore's work Watchmen is in my top 5.

1.Miracleman
2.Swamp Thing
3.Watchmen
4.1963
5.That Kool Aid man story Moore wrote and Peter Bagge drew for Hate issue 30.

Really the only comics Moore has done I didn't like was his run on Wildkats and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. GOt the first volume of League for $3 at a con. Read it two times then gave it away.

[El Pollo Guerrera]

The art is amazing, I love Dave Gibbons' work. I read that he made a model of the street corner that pops up all through the series, so that he could draw it from different angles and still have it be familiar.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
It's the corner where the alien was dropped, wasn't it?

[Bub (BLM)]

I enjoyed it a lot as a teenager, but last time I tried reading it, maybe two years ago, I had to stop. It's no knock on the work at all, but as an adult it's really difficult for me because it strikes a much deeper and uncomfortable chord. In that way, it does exactly what I believe Moore intended.

["Cane Dewey" Johnson]

Sept 22, 2019 1:46:37 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

It’s a pity Moore can’t rock with comic book films, because he’s a great director of comics panel by panel (apparently there’s pages and pages of notes for his artists, and he always picks ultra-sharp artists who are great with expressions, like Dave Gibbons, John Totleben, Brian Bolland, etc.)

For this reason, I think of Watchmen more as a Dave Gibbons book and less an Alan Moore book as time goes on.

I don't like the idea of full script as Moore and other comics writers of his ilk go about it. To me, working full script suggests a lack of trust and engagement in terms of relying on a collaborator, the artist, to do their own thing. It also divests the artist of the role of being a co-writer in many cases.

Maybe a lot of my frustration over the general lack of acknowledgement of Gibbons' contribution to Watchmen comes from the fact that the American comics industry still can't move past the ideas of this book, and that people learned the wrong lessons from this book (and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns), over thirty years later, which I end up associating with Moore's undeniable presence as a noted comics writer at whom people point when they want to talk about "serious" comics.

That, and people often forget about the other book that came out in September 1985 that was also doing the Watchmen thing with superheroes: Squadron Supreme.

[A Platypus Rave]

Sept 22, 2019 1:46:37 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

The Watchmen movie is okay for what it is, but the aftermath of Ozymandias’ plan in the book and how well that horror was drawn is way more intense and affecting.

Snyder also missed like... every point the book was making.

[Ultimo Gallos]

Sept 22, 2019 2:21:31 GMT -5 "Cane Dewey" Johnson said:

Sept 22, 2019 1:46:37 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

It’s a pity Moore can’t rock with comic book films, because he’s a great director of comics panel by panel (apparently there’s pages and pages of notes for his artists, and he always picks ultra-sharp artists who are great with expressions, like Dave Gibbons, John Totleben, Brian Bolland, etc.)

For this reason, I think of Watchmen more as a Dave Gibbons book and less an Alan Moore book as time goes on.

I don't like the idea of full script as Moore and other comics writers of his ilk go about it. To me, working full script suggests a lack of trust and engagement in terms of relying on a collaborator, the artist, to do their own thing. It also divests the artist of the role of being a co-writer in many cases.

Maybe a lot of my frustration over the general lack of acknowledgement of Gibbons' contribution to Watchmen comes from the fact that the American comics industry still can't move past the ideas of this book, and that people learned the wrong lessons from this book (and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns), over thirty years later, which I end up associating with Moore's undeniable presence as a noted comics writer at whom people point when they want to talk about "serious" comics.

That, and people often forget about the other book that came out in September 1985 that was also doing the Watchmen thing with superheroes: Squadron Supreme.

Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme maxi series is one of my favorite comics. Read it as it was coming out. And still believe it influenced Moore a bit on Watchmen.

For all the crap Moore catches for Watchmen inspiring the late 80s grim and gritty comics,his Miracleman work was even darker. Just not as well known back then or as read by as many people as Watchmen.

Thankfully the comic shop I was going to talked me into trying out Miracleman. And I was hooked. Read it from the start until Eclipse went under.

[schma]

Sept 22, 2019 1:46:37 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I go back to it now and then, and it’s still a really detailed and smart story. It isn’t my favorite Alan Moore work- I kinda prefer Tom Strong, Miracleman and For The Man Who Has Everything over it, but I still enjoy it.

It’s a pity Moore can’t rock with comic book films, because he’s a great director of comics panel by panel (apparently there’s pages and pages of notes for his artists, and he always picks ultra-sharp artists who are great with expressions, like Dave Gibbons, John Totleben, Brian Bolland, etc.)

The Watchmen movie is okay for what it is, but the aftermath of Ozymandias’ plan in the book and how well that horror was drawn is way more intense and affecting.

That look of triumph changing to horror as Ozymandias began to realize exactly what he'd done was what made the ending I think and I was highly disappointed that they missed that point entirely in the movie.  In the movie instead he's just thrilled that he won and that small change took so much away from it.

[Hit Girl]

It's a great comic book, but I still feel the movie ending was better, with Manhattan being framed instead of the giant squid appearing.

[A Platypus Rave]

Manhattan being framed doesn't work at all for a variety of reasons.

1. Everything Ozymandias hints at the Alien. Literally EVERYTHING.

2. Doctor Manhattan is a known enemy not some fear of the unknown that brings people together.

3. Doctor Manhattan IS AMERICA. On the World Stage Doc is a representative of America, he is their attack dog that they've used to win Wars. Ozy's plan to stop nuclear war would not include making it seem like America is attacking The Soviet Union.

But America was attacked too!

First, no one cares when the dog you've been siccing on people turns around and bites you

Secondly, the Soviet Union was seconds away from launching nukes when Ozy pulled the trigger... to the people in charge of hitting the button they aren't going to wait for reports that America was hit too they're going to see the blue death energy of Doctor Manhattan and fire on America.


in response to Well it's a global threat instead of just America.

The Soviets are not going to attack a country that just suffered a massive tragedy on that scale. They want to be THE Super power that everyone else follows.

Attacking a country like makes them look like monster at best or like they were responsible for the attack at worst... either way the rest of the nations on the planet are going to then treat them as hostile which is not what they want.


The Squid would look stupid in live action!

Then literally make it look like anything... the point isn't that it's a squid. It's that it's this horrifying monstrosity that doesn't look like it's from Earth.

You have a design team make them design something horrific.

OR... don't show it in full... leave the horrifying design to the audiences imagination have the onlookers before they die see this massive shadow with a horrified look on their face before it explodes.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Sept 21, 2019 23:45:42 GMT -5 Ultimo Gallos said:

What shocks me is people that read it then skip all the text pieces in each issue. The text pieces are very important to the story and by not reading them you miss so much.

Ozymandias's, like, entire character is in those. The subtle hints he was at least partly motivated by a desire to prove himself better and smarter than The Comedian is one of the most interesting things in the whole book.

[A Platypus Rave]

Oddly timed tweet from Gail >_>

[Hit Girl]

Sept 22, 2019 12:24:26 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Manhattan being framed doesn't work at all for a variety of reasons.

1. Everything Ozymandias hints at the Alien. Literally EVERYTHING.

2. Doctor Manhattan is a known enemy not some fear of the unknown that brings people together.

3. Doctor Manhattan IS AMERICA. On the World Stage Doc is a representative of America, he is their attack dog that they've used to win Wars. Ozy's plan to stop nuclear war would not include making it seem like America is attacking The Soviet Union.

But America was attacked too!

First, no one cares when the dog you've been siccing on people turns around and bites you

Secondly, the Soviet Union was seconds away from launching nukes when Ozy pulled the trigger... to the people in charge of hitting the button they aren't going to wait for reports that America was hit too they're going to see the blue death energy of Doctor Manhattan and fire on America.


in response to Well it's a global threat instead of just America.

The Soviets are not going to attack a country that just suffered a massive tragedy on that scale. They want to be THE Super power that everyone else follows.

Attacking a country like makes them look like monster at best or like they were responsible for the attack at worst... either way the rest of the nations on the planet are going to then treat them as hostile which is not what they want.


The Squid would look stupid in live action!

Then literally make it look like anything... the point isn't that it's a squid. It's that it's this horrifying monstrosity that doesn't look like it's from Earth.

You have a design team make them design something horrific.

OR... don't show it in full... leave the horrifying design to the audiences imagination have the onlookers before they die see this massive shadow with a horrified look on their face before it explodes.

Manhattan becomes so distant from humanity, he pretty much is an alien for all intents and purposes, to the point where he leaves Earth to create life elsewhere. It's not unreasonable that humanity would become fearful on whether he even still regards them as being anything above vermin, especially after his outburst during the TV interview, which could override geopolitical conflicts.

[Raskovnik]

I do think the threat has to be truly interdimensional or alien as per Ozymandias's plan. Dr. Manhattan may have ostensibly grown estranged from humanity and America as a result of that, but I'm assuming to the vast majority of countries he would still be seen as extension of America's hubris on the world stage and wouldn't necessarily unite everyone. In fact, it may have the opposite effect.

[A Platypus Rave]

Sept 22, 2019 16:25:32 GMT -5 Raskovnik said:

I do think the threat has to be truly interdimensional or alien as per Ozymandias's plan. Dr. Manhattan may have ostensibly grown estranged from humanity and America as a result of that, but I'm assuming to the vast majority of countries he would still be seen as extension of America's hubris on the world stage and wouldn't necessarily unite everyone. In fact, it may have the opposite effect.

Yes, he personally might have been estranged from humanity.

But the world at large didn't see it that way.

"God is real and he's American"

Not to mention things like He single handedly won wars specifically for America.

[Hit Girl]

They would only need to unite the two superpowers. The two countries capable of destroying the world via nuclear warfare. As Veidt said, the losses from the frame up of Manhattan would be offset greatly by the lives saved from ending the nuclear brinkmanship, and the unifying threat is better personified narratively in Manhattan, rather than a generic giant monster, as it adds to his character that he's prepared to accept the role of the threat if it means world peace.

[Kevin Hamilton]

When you go back to it, you realize how much credit Gibbons deserves as well. The way he used expression and body language, tying background things in etc is awesome.