EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
|
Post by EyeofTyr on Oct 22, 2019 18:19:22 GMT -5
Modern Who kind of suffered from the Michael Bay/DBZ syndrome where RTD and Moffat just kept upping the stakes higher and higher that it got to a point where...where could you go? When you tried to lower them, fans were upset. When you tried to raise them, fans scoffed. When you tried to match them, fans were bored.
In general there's been a lot of apathy surrounding the franchise, a lot of staleness. The writing, the characters, and the fandom not helping it one bit either. Not to say there aren't bright spots, even in the more recent series that have come out. But it isn't really enough. Show rot has set in heavily on the franchise.
I'd go for a "soft reboot" like modern Who started with, which was about as hard of a reboot as a soft reboot can get, and start all over. Put the Doctor in a new situation, a new setting, new companions, get new blood into the show and take some risks with it all like they did with the initial soft reboot. Jettison the waste and give people something worth watching.
|
|
BorneAgain
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,301
Member is Online
|
Post by BorneAgain on Oct 22, 2019 19:01:12 GMT -5
Modern Who kind of suffered from the Michael Bay/DBZ syndrome where RTD and Moffat just kept upping the stakes higher and higher that it got to a point where...where could you go? When you tried to lower them, fans were upset. When you tried to raise them, fans scoffed. When you tried to match them, fans were bored. In general there's been a lot of apathy surrounding the franchise, a lot of staleness. The writing, the characters, and the fandom not helping it one bit either. Not to say there aren't bright spots, even in the more recent series that have come out. But it isn't really enough. Show rot has set in heavily on the franchise. I'd go for a "soft reboot" like modern Who started with, which was about as hard of a reboot as a soft reboot can get, and start all over. Put the Doctor in a new situation, a new setting, new companions, get new blood into the show and take some risks with it all like they did with the initial soft reboot. Jettison the waste and give people something worth watching. I can't say if this would work commercially as who knows how audiences responded ratings wise, but I think artistically I think there might be something to expanding the show through limitation. Classic Who was willing to alter pillars of the show in certain circumstances, grounding the Third Doctor on Earth for a number of years and completely abandoning the Sonic Screwdriver with the 5th Doctor. There might something to taking an element which has been a given with nu-Who and just doing away with it for a while; Maybe its the Tardis crew unable to visit Earth for an entire series because of some plot element, perhaps its an ability or aspect of the Tardis that no longer functions, etc. I just think there is some creativity to be had when the complete freedom nu-Who has had is no longer something a writing team can rely on for stories.
|
|
|
Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Oct 22, 2019 19:06:56 GMT -5
A hard reboot might get me watching again. I gave up not long after the Girl in the Fireplace episode,so that is what 2nd or 3rd season of the modern era? Never got into Tennent as The Doctor. Loved Chris but one season wasn't enough of him. I was a kid back when the MS PBS started airing this. IIRC older seasons,mostly the start of Tom Baker,aired mon thru Thursday. Then the new stuff aired on Saturdays at like 2pm. Loved those seasons and have went back and rewatched them and most of it has held up decently. Something about hte modern Who having a budget for FX work doesn't sit right with me. I know I am cranky old man yelling at clouds. Curious in the States what channel is airing the newest season? Last time I was paying attention SYFY was airing them. BBC America has been airing them for years now. You bailed at the 4th Tennant episode. His character really develops over time. You might have enjoyed the run if you stuck with it. Tom Baker was my favorite. There were so many great stories from his era.
|
|
Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
|
Post by Jiren on Oct 22, 2019 19:21:24 GMT -5
For classic Who the best place to start is either 3rd (Pertwee) or 4th Doctor (Tom Baker)
But IMO I'd go Tom Baker as he has most of the best stories (Genesis of the daleks, Pyramids of Mars) and his era had big impacts to the series (Cybermen's weakness to Gold, Davros).
Plus Tom's Doctor is just a fun character and his companions are great too.....besides Adric
|
|
Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,477
|
Post by Ultimo Gallos on Oct 22, 2019 19:22:18 GMT -5
A hard reboot might get me watching again. I gave up not long after the Girl in the Fireplace episode,so that is what 2nd or 3rd season of the modern era? Never got into Tennent as The Doctor. Loved Chris but one season wasn't enough of him. I was a kid back when the MS PBS started airing this. IIRC older seasons,mostly the start of Tom Baker,aired mon thru Thursday. Then the new stuff aired on Saturdays at like 2pm. Loved those seasons and have went back and rewatched them and most of it has held up decently. Something about hte modern Who having a budget for FX work doesn't sit right with me. I know I am cranky old man yelling at clouds. Curious in the States what channel is airing the newest season? Last time I was paying attention SYFY was airing them. BBC America has been airing them for years now. You bailed at the 4th Tennant episode. His character really develops over time. You might have enjoyed the run if you stuck with it. Tom Baker was my favorite. There were so many great stories from his era. My thing is I am not a fan of Tennant. Not saying he is a bad actor. But nothing about him appeals to me. Only thing I have seen him in that I thought he was good was Kilgrave in Jessica Jones.
|
|
|
Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Oct 22, 2019 19:27:01 GMT -5
BBC America has been airing them for years now. You bailed at the 4th Tennant episode. His character really develops over time. You might have enjoyed the run if you stuck with it. Tom Baker was my favorite. There were so many great stories from his era. My thing is I am not a fan of Tennant. Not saying he is a bad actor. But nothing about him appeals to me. Only thing I have seen him in that I thought he was good was Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. Ever seen Broadchurch? It’s a drama that’s very well done. The UK version, not the American one.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 22, 2019 19:46:51 GMT -5
Modern Who kind of suffered from the Michael Bay/DBZ syndrome where RTD and Moffat just kept upping the stakes higher and higher that it got to a point where...where could you go? When you tried to lower them, fans were upset. When you tried to raise them, fans scoffed. When you tried to match them, fans were bored. In general there's been a lot of apathy surrounding the franchise, a lot of staleness. The writing, the characters, and the fandom not helping it one bit either. Not to say there aren't bright spots, even in the more recent series that have come out. But it isn't really enough. Show rot has set in heavily on the franchise. I'd go for a "soft reboot" like modern Who started with, which was about as hard of a reboot as a soft reboot can get, and start all over. Put the Doctor in a new situation, a new setting, new companions, get new blood into the show and take some risks with it all like they did with the initial soft reboot. Jettison the waste and give people something worth watching. I can't say if this would work commercially as who knows how audiences responded ratings wise, but I think artistically I think there might be something to expanding the show through limitation. Classic Who was willing to alter pillars of the show in certain circumstances, grounding the Third Doctor on Earth for a number of years and completely abandoning the Sonic Screwdriver with the 5th Doctor. There might something to taking an element which has been a given with nu-Who and just doing away with it for a while; Maybe its the Tardis crew unable to visit Earth for an entire series because of some plot element, perhaps its an ability or aspect of the Tardis that no longer functions, etc. I just think there is some creativity to be had when the complete freedom nu-Who has had is no longer something a writing team can rely on for stories. I mean even just having the companion not be a human from the 20th/21st century would be something new for this version of Doctor Who...
|
|
BorneAgain
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,301
Member is Online
|
Post by BorneAgain on Oct 22, 2019 19:54:39 GMT -5
I can't say if this would work commercially as who knows how audiences responded ratings wise, but I think artistically I think there might be something to expanding the show through limitation. Classic Who was willing to alter pillars of the show in certain circumstances, grounding the Third Doctor on Earth for a number of years and completely abandoning the Sonic Screwdriver with the 5th Doctor. There might something to taking an element which has been a given with nu-Who and just doing away with it for a while; Maybe its the Tardis crew unable to visit Earth for an entire series because of some plot element, perhaps its an ability or aspect of the Tardis that no longer functions, etc. I just think there is some creativity to be had when the complete freedom nu-Who has had is no longer something a writing team can rely on for stories. I mean even just having the companion not be a human from the 20th/21st century would be something new for this version of Doctor Who... This is something I was always surprised nu-Who never jumped on more often. The classic show struggled in its budget but was still willing to have robots, aliens, other Time Lords, terrans from all points in history on board. The current show has far more resources and yet outside quasi-cases like Nardole, Captain Jack, or River they've played it pretty safe as far as Companions.
|
|
BlackoutCreature
Grimlock
The Ultimate Popcorntunist!
Posts: 14,529
Member is Online
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Oct 22, 2019 19:59:19 GMT -5
I mean even just having the companion not be a human from the 20th/21st century would be something new for this version of Doctor Who... This is something I was always surprised nu-Who never jumped on more often. The classic show struggled in its budget but was still willing to have robots, aliens, other Time Lords, terrans from all points in history on board. The current show has far more resources and yet outside quasi-cases like Nardole, Captain Jack, or River they've played it pretty safe as far as Companions. Supposedly RTD originally wanted Martha to be a Victorian Era maid, but the BBC put the kibosh on that. At the time they saw the companion as the fan viewpoint character, and they didn't think fans would relate to a non-contemporary companion. I'm wondering if the BBC has softened their stance on this since.
|
|
|
Post by DiBiase is Good on Oct 22, 2019 20:19:42 GMT -5
I love Peter Capaldi but I gave up on him eventually. Maybe it was the poor writing, or that I couldn’t stand Bill as a companion. Or perhaps it was that The Thick of It is one of my favourite shows ever and I find it hard to hear Peter Capaldi speaking a sentence without a “f***” or “c***” thrown in. I like Jodie Whittaker in the role but I think the episodes have been pretty forgettable (with the exception of Rosa, which was excellent).
This may sound stupid but I also have a problem with the move to Sunday evening. I know the average ratings for Series 11 were amongst the highest since the comeback but I personally see it as a Saturday evening show. I know it’s ridiculous and completely a matter of preference but I always enjoy the show more on a Saturday night.
|
|
EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
|
Post by EyeofTyr on Oct 22, 2019 20:34:58 GMT -5
Modern Who kind of suffered from the Michael Bay/DBZ syndrome where RTD and Moffat just kept upping the stakes higher and higher that it got to a point where...where could you go? When you tried to lower them, fans were upset. When you tried to raise them, fans scoffed. When you tried to match them, fans were bored. In general there's been a lot of apathy surrounding the franchise, a lot of staleness. The writing, the characters, and the fandom not helping it one bit either. Not to say there aren't bright spots, even in the more recent series that have come out. But it isn't really enough. Show rot has set in heavily on the franchise. I'd go for a "soft reboot" like modern Who started with, which was about as hard of a reboot as a soft reboot can get, and start all over. Put the Doctor in a new situation, a new setting, new companions, get new blood into the show and take some risks with it all like they did with the initial soft reboot. Jettison the waste and give people something worth watching. I can't say if this would work commercially as who knows how audiences responded ratings wise, but I think artistically I think there might be something to expanding the show through limitation. Classic Who was willing to alter pillars of the show in certain circumstances, grounding the Third Doctor on Earth for a number of years and completely abandoning the Sonic Screwdriver with the 5th Doctor. There might something to taking an element which has been a given with nu-Who and just doing away with it for a while; Maybe its the Tardis crew unable to visit Earth for an entire series because of some plot element, perhaps its an ability or aspect of the Tardis that no longer functions, etc. I just think there is some creativity to be had when the complete freedom nu-Who has had is no longer something a writing team can rely on for stories. I think a big issue is that pretty much every high of Doctor Who has seen more than just the episodic formula at play, there's always been a hook of some kind. One of which you mentioned, the Third Doctor being stranded on Earth being one of them. I think, while other factors have definitely been at play, there's no accident that fan apathy started setting in once...the Time War was kind of, sort of resolved. The Doctor found Gallifrey, he's no longer the Last Of The Time Lords (as he had been heralded as for so long in New Who). A massive hook to the series for modern watchers was gone. To make a comparison, it's like why one of the major contributors to Twin Peaks' ratings diving off a cliff back in the day was Laura Palmer's murderer being revealed. The air of mystery and the lingering question were gone. In a way, the journey felt over for many (and like Lynch and Frost themselves have admitted, it took them some time to figure out what to do with characters like Agent Cooper). I'm not saying they should've done it. I'm not even saying they need to go back to The Doctor being the only one or Gallifrey being gone or anything like that. Even Moffat and RTD used other hooks throughout the early seasons to keep people coming back (Bad Wolf, YANA, You're song is ending, The Crack In My Wall, The Silence, The Doctor's Name and so on). The series hasn't really had any proper hook to the story in seasons, and I think it's a part of the decline. People like a mystery. They like riddles. They like theory crafting. Doctor Who doesn't give people that anymore (and honestly even Moffat's last few that he tried he didn't really give people enough to work with to really theorize much about them until he revealed them).
|
|
Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,477
|
Post by Ultimo Gallos on Oct 22, 2019 20:51:09 GMT -5
My thing is I am not a fan of Tennant. Not saying he is a bad actor. But nothing about him appeals to me. Only thing I have seen him in that I thought he was good was Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. Ever seen Broadchurch? It’s a drama that’s very well done. The UK version, not the American one. Heard of it but haven't seen it.
|
|
BorneAgain
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,301
Member is Online
|
Post by BorneAgain on Oct 22, 2019 21:27:28 GMT -5
I can't say if this would work commercially as who knows how audiences responded ratings wise, but I think artistically I think there might be something to expanding the show through limitation. Classic Who was willing to alter pillars of the show in certain circumstances, grounding the Third Doctor on Earth for a number of years and completely abandoning the Sonic Screwdriver with the 5th Doctor. There might something to taking an element which has been a given with nu-Who and just doing away with it for a while; Maybe its the Tardis crew unable to visit Earth for an entire series because of some plot element, perhaps its an ability or aspect of the Tardis that no longer functions, etc. I just think there is some creativity to be had when the complete freedom nu-Who has had is no longer something a writing team can rely on for stories. I think a big issue is that pretty much every high of Doctor Who has seen more than just the episodic formula at play, there's always been a hook of some kind. One of which you mentioned, the Third Doctor being stranded on Earth being one of them. I think, while other factors have definitely been at play, there's no accident that fan apathy started setting in once...the Time War was kind of, sort of resolved. The Doctor found Gallifrey, he's no longer the Last Of The Time Lords (as he had been heralded as for so long in New Who). A massive hook to the series for modern watchers was gone. To make a comparison, it's like why one of the major contributors to Twin Peaks' ratings diving off a cliff back in the day was Laura Palmer's murderer being revealed. The air of mystery and the lingering question were gone. In a way, the journey felt over for many (and like Lynch and Frost themselves have admitted, it took them some time to figure out what to do with characters like Agent Cooper). I'm not saying they should've done it. I'm not even saying they need to go back to The Doctor being the only one or Gallifrey being gone or anything like that. Even Moffat and RTD used other hooks throughout the early seasons to keep people coming back (Bad Wolf, YANA, You're song is ending, The Crack In My Wall, The Silence, The Doctor's Name and so on). The series hasn't really had any proper hook to the story in seasons, and I think it's a part of the decline. People like a mystery. They like riddles. They like theory crafting. Doctor Who doesn't give people that anymore (and honestly even Moffat's last few that he tried he didn't really give people enough to work with to really theorize much about them until he revealed them). This might have been excessive given the arrival of Missy around the same time, but post 2013 DW might have had something with the salvation of Gallifrey leading to the consequence of Time Lords once again being active in the universe the troubles that ensue because of it. The Rani, the Monk, Romana; suddenly there are numerous masters of time the Doctor is now facing against or allying with; perhaps leading to less of an emphasis on the lonely god or space messiah angle RTD/Moffat leaned on as a result.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,085
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 23, 2019 1:43:59 GMT -5
I think a big issue is that pretty much every high of Doctor Who has seen more than just the episodic formula at play, there's always been a hook of some kind. One of which you mentioned, the Third Doctor being stranded on Earth being one of them. I think, while other factors have definitely been at play, there's no accident that fan apathy started setting in once...the Time War was kind of, sort of resolved. The Doctor found Gallifrey, he's no longer the Last Of The Time Lords (as he had been heralded as for so long in New Who). A massive hook to the series for modern watchers was gone. To make a comparison, it's like why one of the major contributors to Twin Peaks' ratings diving off a cliff back in the day was Laura Palmer's murderer being revealed. The air of mystery and the lingering question were gone. In a way, the journey felt over for many (and like Lynch and Frost themselves have admitted, it took them some time to figure out what to do with characters like Agent Cooper). I'm not saying they should've done it. I'm not even saying they need to go back to The Doctor being the only one or Gallifrey being gone or anything like that. Even Moffat and RTD used other hooks throughout the early seasons to keep people coming back (Bad Wolf, YANA, You're song is ending, The Crack In My Wall, The Silence, The Doctor's Name and so on). The series hasn't really had any proper hook to the story in seasons, and I think it's a part of the decline. People like a mystery. They like riddles. They like theory crafting. Doctor Who doesn't give people that anymore (and honestly even Moffat's last few that he tried he didn't really give people enough to work with to really theorize much about them until he revealed them). This might have been excessive given the arrival of Missy around the same time, but post 2013 DW might have had something with the salvation of Gallifrey leading to the consequence of Time Lords once again being active in the universe the troubles that ensue because of it. The Rani, the Monk, Romana; suddenly there are numerous masters of time the Doctor is now facing against or allying with; perhaps leading to less of an emphasis on the lonely god or space messiah angle RTD/Moffat leaned on as a result. The problem was Moffat had no interest in the Time Lords. Since they've come back, what have they done? Rassilon was a doddery old man, beaten by a conversation with the Doctor in 5 seconds, makes the whole thing utterly pointless. The Time War is something they should have stayed away from entirely, because there was no way to do it any kind of justice. Just take one of Tennant's quotea about it: "ou weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending." Oh wait, no, it was just Daleks shooting stuff.
|
|
thechase
King Koopa
Posts: 11,731
Member is Online
|
Post by thechase on Oct 23, 2019 1:50:06 GMT -5
This might have been excessive given the arrival of Missy around the same time, but post 2013 DW might have had something with the salvation of Gallifrey leading to the consequence of Time Lords once again being active in the universe the troubles that ensue because of it. The Rani, the Monk, Romana; suddenly there are numerous masters of time the Doctor is now facing against or allying with; perhaps leading to less of an emphasis on the lonely god or space messiah angle RTD/Moffat leaned on as a result. The problem was Moffat had no interest in the Time Lords. Since they've come back, what have they done? Rassilon was a doddery old man, beaten by a conversation with the Doctor in 5 seconds, makes the whole thing utterly pointless. The Time War is something they should have stayed away from entirely, because there was no way to do it any kind of justice. Just take one of Tennant's quotea about it: "ou weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the Timelock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-have-been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres. The War turned into hell. And that's what you've opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending." Oh wait, no, it was just Daleks shooting stuff. What's worse is how Big Finish don't even do the Time War justice. It's just the Daleks and Jacobi's Master all the time. None of what Ten mentioned in the series has been touched on there either and the very format of Big Finish is perfect for it, a budget that is limitless due to not being bolted down visually and left totally to your imagination as you hear the dialogue and descriptions. What I would give for Terry Molloy in a Nightmare Child storyline. Three volumes of the Time War thus far..and none of this.
|
|
FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,436
|
Post by FinalGwen on Oct 23, 2019 2:12:07 GMT -5
The only interesting depiction of the true horror of a Time War came from Lawrence Miles and the other authors involved in the Faction Paradox range of books.
|
|
Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,184
|
Post by Jonathan Michaels on Oct 23, 2019 2:45:41 GMT -5
I like that they mixed up the companion spot with Jodie, the pattern of the Doctor/a random cute girl was getting a little repetitive.
I think they should have taken a note from the Corden episodes and paired him with just some normal bloke and done a season of them palling around, The Doctor has had so few male friends.
Heck, it should even work with Jodie, honestly.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,085
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 23, 2019 4:14:50 GMT -5
I like that they mixed up the companion spot with Jodie, the pattern of the Doctor/a random cute girl was getting a little repetitive. I think they should have taken a note from the Corden episodes and paired him with just some normal bloke and done a season of them palling around, The Doctor has had so few male friends. Heck, it should even work with Jodie, honestly. That's kind of what they have going with Graham, and he's by far the most entertaining of the new companions.
|
|
thechase
King Koopa
Posts: 11,731
Member is Online
|
Post by thechase on Oct 26, 2019 3:42:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Oct 26, 2019 12:04:29 GMT -5
Pass. A Doctor Who movie that’s completely separate from any Who canon? Not interested. It would end up feeling like a knock off. It would be like making War of Stars, with Duke Airunner and Dan Bolo. Even if you do everything exactly the same, it still wouldn’t feel right.
|
|