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Post by CubsFan71 on Nov 29, 2019 23:44:44 GMT -5
When the man running the company is the biggest bully of them all, you won’t really see anyone in the company being reprimanded for bullying.
#BeA⭐️
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Nov 29, 2019 23:45:09 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 29, 2019 23:54:34 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. Yeah, I imagine there is limited precedence for further reprimand, but this is a good opportunity to pull the roster aside and remind them that everyone can see their twitters and to not post like they are beauty cloggers sniping at each other. Which is not me doing some tired, "oh hens fighting" shtick, beauty vloggers are just EXTREMELY vicious with each other, it's a surprisingly territorial business.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 0:07:05 GMT -5
I feel for workplace misconduct, it’s the conduct and it’s reasonable results that should be looked at, not necessarily the effect. If anything, there’s more a case for some kind of discipline for perhaps making it worse in the aftermath with that tweet attacking Meltzer and then if it’s true that he doubled down in his podcast (haven’t listened). The reasonable result was sending a man already on the edge of a mental health crisis over the edge. That's damage that needs to be reprimanded. Again, it shouldn’t be the damage IMO that’s looked at, but the conduct. Your answer begets important questions: 1- did Graves know Mauro was on the edge of a mental health crisis? 2- if not, then was the result of his conduct something reasonably foreseeable? And reprimanded is different than fine which is different than suspension. My original point was about suspension.
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Post by Dub H on Nov 30, 2019 0:11:10 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. Guideline: 1- Do not say anything bad about the company 2- Insulting Meltzer is not only encouraged ,it is allowed.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 0:17:20 GMT -5
The reasonable result was sending a man already on the edge of a mental health crisis over the edge. That's damage that needs to be reprimanded. Again, it shouldn’t be the damage IMO that’s looked at, but the conduct. Your answer begets important questions: 1- did Graves know Mauro was on the edge of a mental health crisis? 2- if not, then was the result of his conduct something reasonably foreseeable? And reprimanded is different than fine which is different than suspension. My original point was about suspension. Conduct is a piece of it, but the consequences of that conduct can't be ignored, and in this case they were incredibly grave. People can not mean to cause harm and still cause immense harm, and they should shoulder some measure of responsibility for that harm. There's a lot of things people are punished for in our society that they "didn't mean to do" but still did, and his conduct honestly doesn't even have all that great a reasoning or purpose in the first place, so this wasn't some innocent good action he f***ed up, it's someone who shittalks people on twitter shittalking someone to the tune of some actual damage. Intention only counts for so much and I think that's very much on a sliding scale where the scale is what the actions caused. Much the same way "I didn't mean to drop the plate that fell on the floor and broke" is just whatever and people are usually more spooked by the loud crashing noise and danger of stepping on glass than worried about the plate, while "I didn't mean to drive into those children and kill them instantly" is something people go to prison for.
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Post by Dub H on Nov 30, 2019 0:21:00 GMT -5
Again, it shouldn’t be the damage IMO that’s looked at, but the conduct. Your answer begets important questions: 1- did Graves know Mauro was on the edge of a mental health crisis? 2- if not, then was the result of his conduct something reasonably foreseeable? And reprimanded is different than fine which is different than suspension. My original point was about suspension. Conduct is a piece of it, but the consequences of that conduct can't be ignored, and in this case they were incredibly grave. People can not mean to cause harm and still cause immense harm, and they should shoulder some measure of responsibility for that harm. There's a lot of things people are punished for in our society that they "didn't mean to do" but still did, and his conduct honestly doesn't even have all that great a reasoning or purpose in the first place, so this wasn't some innocent good action he f***ed up, it's someone who shittalks people on twitter shittalking someone to the tune of some actual damage. Intention only counts for so much and I think that's very much on a sliding scale where the scale is what the actions caused. Much the same way "I didn't mean to drop the plate that fell on the floor and broke" is just whatever and people are usually more spooked by the loud crashing noise and danger of stepping on glass than worried about the plate, while "I didn't mean to drive into those children and kill them instantly" is something people go to prison for. If we have to go full lawler like. While is,intent can be relevant in a few crimes what is intent? If you did something with intent to hurt for example ,you are still guilty of the crimes no matter HOW MUCH you hurt that pperson. Same here,Graves had intent of embarassing Mauro and make him feel bad im that base alone it doesnt matter if he wanted little or a bunch.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 0:24:46 GMT -5
Again, it shouldn’t be the damage IMO that’s looked at, but the conduct. Your answer begets important questions: 1- did Graves know Mauro was on the edge of a mental health crisis? 2- if not, then was the result of his conduct something reasonably foreseeable? And reprimanded is different than fine which is different than suspension. My original point was about suspension. Conduct is a piece of it, but the consequences of that conduct can't be ignored, and in this case they were incredibly grave. People can not mean to cause harm and still cause immense harm, and they should shoulder some measure of responsibility for that harm. There's a lot of things people are punished for in our society that they "didn't mean to do" but still did, and his conduct honestly doesn't even have all that great a reasoning or purpose in the first place, so this wasn't some innocent good action he f***ed up, it's someone who shittalks people on twitter shittalking someone to the tune of some actual damage. Intention only counts for so much and I think that's very much on a sliding scale where the scale is what the actions caused. Much the same way "I didn't mean to drop the plate that fell on the floor and broke" is just whatever and people are usually more spooked by the loud crashing noise and danger of stepping on glass than worried about the plate, while "I didn't mean to drive into those children and kill them instantly" is something people go to prison for. You’re talking about intent, I’m talking about foreseeability of consequences, two different concepts. A foreseeable result of hitting people with your car is death. But let’s say you are speeding, drove through a puddle and the water splashed up and hits someone on the sidewalk. The person gets seriously injured/ill due to a condition they have. Not as foreseeable and not as likely to receive punishment.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 0:35:47 GMT -5
Conduct is a piece of it, but the consequences of that conduct can't be ignored, and in this case they were incredibly grave. People can not mean to cause harm and still cause immense harm, and they should shoulder some measure of responsibility for that harm. There's a lot of things people are punished for in our society that they "didn't mean to do" but still did, and his conduct honestly doesn't even have all that great a reasoning or purpose in the first place, so this wasn't some innocent good action he f***ed up, it's someone who shittalks people on twitter shittalking someone to the tune of some actual damage. Intention only counts for so much and I think that's very much on a sliding scale where the scale is what the actions caused. Much the same way "I didn't mean to drop the plate that fell on the floor and broke" is just whatever and people are usually more spooked by the loud crashing noise and danger of stepping on glass than worried about the plate, while "I didn't mean to drive into those children and kill them instantly" is something people go to prison for. You’re talking about intent, I’m talking about foreseeability of consequences, two different concepts. That's sort of even worse then, because Corey's perception of how his actions will go over means literally nothing. If you put Corey's idea of "this is how it will go down" on a scale against the damage this caused, the scale will break and Corey's perception will be launched into space and classified as an asteroid. I was talking intent because intent was an angle I could see something being played on; I think it's splitting hairs to talk intent versus reasonable forseeability because that would be laughed out as a defense in the first place. Corey said public things to insult someone on the internet, and the outcome of those words was that the bad things had an extremely negative emotional impact on the recipient. There's no crazy Rube Goldberg series of events here. Corey talked shit about someone, and that person felt bad. That is the most forseeable outcome of those actions, taken here to the extreme, of course, but the risk itself? To anyone raised in western society, where we drill that shit into kids' heads from a very early age? No excuse.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 0:40:02 GMT -5
You’re talking about intent, I’m talking about foreseeability of consequences, two different concepts. That's sort of even worse then, because Corey's perception of how his actions will go over means literally nothing. Not his actual perception but a “reasonable person” in his circumstance. And no, that wouldn’t be “laughed out” of anywhere.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Nov 30, 2019 0:41:28 GMT -5
It’s definitely a serious situation for Mauro but do you really think Graves initial tweets should mean he’s suspended? Considering that Vince suspended Titus O'neil 90 days for touching him, I would say that openly knocking a co-worker's work, someone who isn't a wrestler, would call for some punishment. Lol..It’s hard being reasonable and giving the company the benefit of the doubt when you recall shit like this.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Nov 30, 2019 0:50:43 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. Issue is, if WWE is backing Graves over this situation it's setting a precident that absolutely nothing is going to be done about this. When it comes to a private apology? Graves has doubled down on his thoughts and actions, he's already ruined himself in the public light, and I don't know if he will apologize period. And even if he did, again, he's made himself look like an absolute f***ing dick in public, repeatedly, instead os simply saying sorry and owning up legitimately. Realistically the only thing I see coming out of this, is Mauro leaving the WWE because it's a flat out toxic environment that doesn't seem to respect what he's going through in the least, and he has plenty of other options and friends outside of there that would have handled this situation immediately without all this schoolyard nonsense. It's not worth it. If WWE'd rather have someone like Graves doing this shit and being the way he is, they should lay in the bed they made. Mauro owes this company nothing, and I wish the best for him in whatever he does. But considering this is the second time this has happened in the WWE setting? I really feel like he needs to get out of there.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 0:52:51 GMT -5
That's sort of even worse then, because Corey's perception of how his actions will go over means literally nothing. Not his actual perception but a “reasonable person” in his circumstance. And no, that wouldn’t be “laughed out” of anywhere. So you're telling me that Corey Graves, who has worked with Mauro and knows Mauro is not only mentally ill but has had to step away from working for WWE due to past mental illness flare-ups, didn't think that shittalking him on his twitter feed for his commentary was any kind of risk or problem. And that not only is that not just a sign Corey is a negligent idiot, but that it's reasonable for him not to have considered those risks, and that the fact he shouldn't be expected to think before he speaks-- even knowing about Mauro's overall situation--should be the primary factor of consideration for if he should be punished or not? Because honestly it would be so laughed out of everywhere that I'd kind of like to see it even laughed out of this thread, that's nonsense. "My attempt at ripping on this dude and publicly humiliating him went too far, how could I have seen this coming?" is actual lunatic shit, there's a reason Corey's shilling that Survivor Series lie.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 7:01:13 GMT -5
Not his actual perception but a “reasonable person” in his circumstance. And no, that wouldn’t be “laughed out” of anywhere. So you're telling me that Corey Graves, who has worked with Mauro and knows Mauro is not only mentally ill but has had to step away from working for WWE due to past mental illness flare-ups, didn't think that shittalking him on his twitter feed for his commentary was any kind of risk or problem. And that not only is that not just a sign Corey is a negligent idiot, but that it's reasonable for him not to have considered those risks, and that the fact he shouldn't be expected to think before he speaks-- even knowing about Mauro's overall situation--should be the primary factor of consideration for if he should be punished or not? Because honestly it would be so laughed out of everywhere that I'd kind of like to see it even laughed out of this thread, that's nonsense. "My attempt at ripping on this dude and publicly humiliating him went too far, how could I have seen this coming?" is actual lunatic shit, there's a reason Corey's shilling that Survivor Series lie. Wouldn’t be laughed out of court, shouldn’t be laughed out of this thread. If you think the conduct warrants suspension and it was your company then sure go ahead. But I don’t think the fact that Mauro has had such a strong reaction should play into making the discipline more severe. And now you’re moving the goalposts by saying “any risk or problem” when clearly I was talking about Mauro’s actual reaction playing into the decision to discipline. And just giving it a label as “shitttalk” kind of clouds what was actually said which was basically calling him out for talking too much and then for making too many rap references. Again, not a great look if he was shooting, not a great look if he was working, but still suspension seems heavy for that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 12:12:55 GMT -5
I’d say Corey commentating on Smackdown tonight basically showed that narrative about them thinking he’s in the right has a biiiiiit of legs to it. Which is, well, gross. Highly expected but gross. It’s definitely a serious situation for Mauro but do you really think Graves initial tweets should mean he’s suspended? Nah, definitely not. I've read through this whole thread and I'm still where I was at the beginning: I feel for Mauro, and I can certainly relate to what he's going through, but the outrage level over what Corey actually said -- along with calling it bullying, attacking, etc. -- is nuts. The man passively agressively suggested that Mauro dominates on commentary and that he should let his colleagues get their shit in more often. The only punishment that's warranted, IMO, is a "Hey, keep that stuff in-house," which, for all we know, might've happened.
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Nov 30, 2019 13:35:31 GMT -5
I feel for workplace misconduct, it’s the conduct and it’s reasonable results that should be looked at, not necessarily the effect. If anything, there’s more a case for some kind of discipline for perhaps making it worse in the aftermath with that tweet attacking Meltzer and then if it’s true that he doubled down in his podcast (haven’t listened). The reasonable result was sending a man already on the edge of a mental health crisis over the edge. That's damage that needs to be reprimanded.And it probably would be in most companies...but not in the WWE.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 14:18:23 GMT -5
So you're telling me that Corey Graves, who has worked with Mauro and knows Mauro is not only mentally ill but has had to step away from working for WWE due to past mental illness flare-ups, didn't think that shittalking him on his twitter feed for his commentary was any kind of risk or problem. And that not only is that not just a sign Corey is a negligent idiot, but that it's reasonable for him not to have considered those risks, and that the fact he shouldn't be expected to think before he speaks-- even knowing about Mauro's overall situation--should be the primary factor of consideration for if he should be punished or not? Because honestly it would be so laughed out of everywhere that I'd kind of like to see it even laughed out of this thread, that's nonsense. "My attempt at ripping on this dude and publicly humiliating him went too far, how could I have seen this coming?" is actual lunatic shit, there's a reason Corey's shilling that Survivor Series lie. Wouldn’t be laughed out of court, shouldn’t be laughed out of this thread. If you think the conduct warrants suspension and it was your company then sure go ahead. But I don’t think the fact that Mauro has had such a strong reaction should play into making the discipline more severe. And now you’re moving the goalposts by saying “any risk or problem” when clearly I was talking about Mauro’s actual reaction playing into the decision to discipline. And just giving it a label as “shitttalk” kind of clouds what was actually said which was basically calling him out for talking too much and then for making too many rap references. Again, not a great look if he was shooting, not a great look if he was working, but still suspension seems heavy for that. Pretty sure my goalposts have remained very firmly this whole time at "Corey had every reason to know that his comments were a stupid risk when he's worked with Mauro and seen him have to take a leave before firsthand" and "he should be suspended and the impact of his actions should be a factor". Accusing me of moving goalposts isn't an actual response to picking apart your reasonable forseeability defense.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Nov 30, 2019 14:29:04 GMT -5
To me, the comment is irrelevant. It’s the lapse in judgement at the hands of an employee who’s well aware of the medical condition another employee is diagnosed with. I don’t know what reprimand or punishment fits for such a mistake..and considering the company, I guess calling it a “mistake” may be too far.
Maybe it genuinely is asking too much of any employee under the WWE umbrella to take mental health with any resemblance of legitimacy and care.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 15:18:52 GMT -5
Something like Championship Wrestling from Hollywood would be perfect for him since he wouldn't have to travel. He probably makes decent money from boxing and MMA. WWE will always have assholes since the chairman is one
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 18:22:46 GMT -5
Wouldn’t be laughed out of court, shouldn’t be laughed out of this thread. If you think the conduct warrants suspension and it was your company then sure go ahead. But I don’t think the fact that Mauro has had such a strong reaction should play into making the discipline more severe. And now you’re moving the goalposts by saying “any risk or problem” when clearly I was talking about Mauro’s actual reaction playing into the decision to discipline. And just giving it a label as “shitttalk” kind of clouds what was actually said which was basically calling him out for talking too much and then for making too many rap references. Again, not a great look if he was shooting, not a great look if he was working, but still suspension seems heavy for that. Pretty sure my goalposts have remained very firmly this whole time at "Corey had every reason to know that his comments were a stupid risk when he's worked with Mauro and seen him have to take a leave before firsthand" and "he should be suspended and the impact of his actions should be a factor". Accusing me of moving goalposts isn't an actual response to picking apart your reasonable forseeability defense. I’ve reiterated my position over and over. I never said anything about Corey not knowing his tweets had “any risk or problem” which is a pretty low bar, I’ve been saying that the actual effect on Mauro here (which has been great) should not really factor into the decision to levy discipline. At this point I think we’ve each made our points clear so agree to disagree I suppose.
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