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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 30, 2019 18:25:39 GMT -5
To me, the comment is irrelevant. It’s the lapse in judgement at the hands of an employee who’s well aware of the medical condition another employee is diagnosed with. I don’t know what reprimand or punishment fits for such a mistake..and considering the company, I guess calling it a “mistake” may be too far. Maybe it genuinely is asking too much of any employee under the WWE umbrella to take mental health with any resemblance of legitimacy and care. A suspension may be too much, but pulling aside Graves to talk to him about the situation and an apology to Mauro would work. If not, then a suspension.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 18:26:51 GMT -5
Pretty sure my goalposts have remained very firmly this whole time at "Corey had every reason to know that his comments were a stupid risk when he's worked with Mauro and seen him have to take a leave before firsthand" and "he should be suspended and the impact of his actions should be a factor". Accusing me of moving goalposts isn't an actual response to picking apart your reasonable forseeability defense. I’ve reiterated my position over and over. I never said anything about Corey not knowing his tweets had “any risk or problem” which is a pretty low bar, I’ve been saying that the actual effect on Mauro here (which has been great) should not really factor into the decision to levy discipline. You brought up a legal doctrine that literally exists to measure how much someone can know that an action will lead to an outcome as a way of determining responsibility for the ensuing damage. So you're doing a really poor job of not saying that.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 30, 2019 18:30:22 GMT -5
If Corey had given an actual apology to Mauro after the initial comments instead of doubling down, blaming Dave Meltzer for some reason, followed by making all sorts of excuses before delivering a half-assed "apology" that makes "I'm sorry if you were offended" look like a statement of profound contrition, I'd give him a warning about not doing anything like that again but otherwise drop it. But he did all that and made himself look like a scumbag (moreso) while embarrassing the company in the process. If I was in charge of discipline, I'd suspend him with pay (less any PPV bonuses) for 30 days for conduct detrimental.
But since this is WWE corporate culture, of course they're not going to do anything about it.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 18:40:13 GMT -5
I’ve reiterated my position over and over. I never said anything about Corey not knowing his tweets had “any risk or problem” which is a pretty low bar, I’ve been saying that the actual effect on Mauro here (which has been great) should not really factor into the decision to levy discipline. You brought up a legal doctrine that literally exists to measure how much someone can know that an action will lead to an outcome as a way of determining responsibility for the ensuing damage. So you're doing a really poor job of not saying that. I think you’re missing what I’m trying to say. Knowing that there is “any” risk or problem is different from being aware of the specific result that came about here (Mauro having a breakdown of sorts).
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 30, 2019 18:58:55 GMT -5
You brought up a legal doctrine that literally exists to measure how much someone can know that an action will lead to an outcome as a way of determining responsibility for the ensuing damage. So you're doing a really poor job of not saying that. I think you’re missing what I’m trying to say. Knowing that there is “any” risk or problem is different from being aware of the specific result that came about here (Mauro having a breakdown of sorts). You keep harping on the word "any" like I'm handing you a doctoral thesis; the 'any' here is 'any risk of a mental breakdown for the man with an unstable mental state' and I feel like the context of my posts about how they've worked together has made that pretty clear; Corey's words could have an adverse effect, and Mauro is especially at risk for dramatic effects. Corey worked with Mauro and watched him fall off once more, that has to be a factor that should have been accounted for, and my repeated attempts to point that out aren't being addressed here so that you can pick apart specific words three or four posts in a row. Pedantry isn't an argument.
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Post by KofiMania on Nov 30, 2019 19:43:14 GMT -5
I think you’re missing what I’m trying to say. Knowing that there is “any” risk or problem is different from being aware of the specific result that came about here (Mauro having a breakdown of sorts). You keep harping on the word "any" like I'm handing you a doctoral thesis; the 'any' here is 'any risk of a mental breakdown for the man with an unstable mental state' and I feel like the context of my posts about how they've worked together has made that pretty clear; Corey's words could have an adverse effect, and Mauro is especially at risk for dramatic effects. Corey worked with Mauro and watched him fall off once more, that has to be a factor that should have been accounted for, and my repeated attempts to point that out aren't being addressed here so that you can pick apart specific words three or four posts in a row. Pedantry isn't an argument. No need to take shots, sir. I can certainly agree that if you think Corey should have known that a mental breakdown the likes of which happened here was a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the tweets he made, then he should be punished accordingly. We can agree to disagree about whether he should have known that.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Nov 30, 2019 19:51:07 GMT -5
I'm just sick to death of people who act like apologizing is the worst thing you can do in any situation. Even when you're wrong.
You only make it worse for yourself by doubling down in this instance.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 1, 2019 17:26:57 GMT -5
You keep harping on the word "any" like I'm handing you a doctoral thesis; the 'any' here is 'any risk of a mental breakdown for the man with an unstable mental state' and I feel like the context of my posts about how they've worked together has made that pretty clear; Corey's words could have an adverse effect, and Mauro is especially at risk for dramatic effects. Corey worked with Mauro and watched him fall off once more, that has to be a factor that should have been accounted for, and my repeated attempts to point that out aren't being addressed here so that you can pick apart specific words three or four posts in a row. Pedantry isn't an argument. No need to take shots, sir. I can certainly agree that if you think Corey should have known that a mental breakdown the likes of which happened here was a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the tweets he made, then he should be punished accordingly. We can agree to disagree about whether he should have known that. Neither of you two are to reply a single time more to one another.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 1, 2019 17:46:40 GMT -5
I'm just sick to death of people who act like apologizing is the worst thing you can do in any situation. Even when you're wrong. You only make it worse for yourself by doubling down in this instance. I go back and forth on that. On the one hand, that PG Wodehouse line (“It is a good rule in life never to apologize. The right sort of people do not want apologies, and the wrong sort take a mean advantage of them.”) always stuck with me. And I also tend to feel like it's not really an apology if no punishment and restitution come along with it (even if it's just "I'll forgive you, but you still need to f*** off forever.", like the agreement between Marcellus and Butch in Pulp Fiction ("You get gone, and if you don't stay gone, you BE gone.")). Also, I feel like once the negative momentum ball gets rolling, it's almost impossible to stop, so, if you've crossed a line that people aren't in any sort of mood to let you attempt to come back from, nothing you do will matter. On the other, I'd like to feel like maybe it's still possible to come back into better graces.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Dec 1, 2019 18:00:21 GMT -5
To me, the comment is irrelevant. It’s the lapse in judgement at the hands of an employee who’s well aware of the medical condition another employee is diagnosed with. I don’t know what reprimand or punishment fits for such a mistake..and considering the company, I guess calling it a “mistake” may be too far. Maybe it genuinely is asking too much of any employee under the WWE umbrella to take mental health with any resemblance of legitimacy and care. A suspension may be too much, but pulling aside Graves to talk to him about the situation and an apology to Mauro would work. If not, then a suspension. Given its WWE we're talking about here, they'll congratulate him and tell him to do it more and more.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 1, 2019 18:03:38 GMT -5
A suspension may be too much, but pulling aside Graves to talk to him about the situation and an apology to Mauro would work. If not, then a suspension. Given its WWE we're talking about here, they'll congratulate him and tell him to do it more and more. Absolutely. As much as I tend to reflexively turn contrarian sometimes, a major thing that doesn't is that I really don't like how Vince so badly wants to maintain a cut-throat environment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 18:38:50 GMT -5
This shit is still going on?!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 7:43:55 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. I have a feeling that if they were actual employees and not independent contractors, this guideline would already be in place (guessing front office folks have such guidelines to follow already) and would be easy to enforce. Alas, since technically they aren't employees there's probably a lot of tough area for them to govern and legally control in order to establish those guidelines. And even then, I'd expect the WWE to enforce & control people constantly acting for their releases moreso than those who bully co-workers.
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Post by eJm on Dec 2, 2019 7:46:50 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. I have a feeling that if they were actual employees and not independent contractors, this guideline would already be in place (guessing front office folks have such guidelines to follow already) and would be easy to enforce. Alas, since technically they aren't employees there's probably a lot of tough area for them to govern and legally control in order to establish those guidelines. And even then, I'd expect the WWE to enforce & control people constantly acting for their releases moreso than those who bully co-workers. The question I have, though, is aren't the announcers technically employees or are they also independent contractors? Because if that's the case, you'd think something could be enforced for those people in particular.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Dec 2, 2019 7:49:09 GMT -5
I think the best case scenario is using this to put guidelines for social media in place. Dunno that punishment needs to go beyond that and a private apology. I have a feeling that if they were actual employees and not independent contractors, this guideline would already be in place (guessing front office folks have such guidelines to follow already) and would be easy to enforce. Alas, since technically they aren't employees there's probably a lot of tough area for them to govern and legally control in order to establish those guidelines. And even then, I'd expect the WWE to enforce & control people constantly acting for their releases moreso than those who bully co-workers. WWE announcers are employees. They have totally different deals than the wrestlers and managers do. Tony Khan mentioned awhile back that Jon Moxley has WWE health insurance since he's married to a WWE employee.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 7:57:05 GMT -5
I have a feeling that if they were actual employees and not independent contractors, this guideline would already be in place (guessing front office folks have such guidelines to follow already) and would be easy to enforce. Alas, since technically they aren't employees there's probably a lot of tough area for them to govern and legally control in order to establish those guidelines. And even then, I'd expect the WWE to enforce & control people constantly acting for their releases moreso than those who bully co-workers. WWE announcers are employees. They have totally different deals than the wrestlers and managers do. Tony Khan mentioned awhile back that Jon Moxley has WWE health insurance since he's married to a WWE employee. Interesting. I was wondering that but wasn't sure if it applied to Graves, who had been a performer. More interesting to know that the announcers are on different deals, yet also perform in the ring (we don't forget you or your pre-Lawler's heart attack shenanigans, Cole). Every time I'm reminded that wrestling is a giant legal landmine I'm glad I've only just been a fan/viewer....
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Post by eJm on Dec 2, 2019 7:58:47 GMT -5
WWE announcers are employees. They have totally different deals than the wrestlers and managers do. Tony Khan mentioned awhile back that Jon Moxley has WWE health insurance since he's married to a WWE employee. Interesting. I was wondering that but wasn't sure if it applied to Graves, who had been a performer. More interesting to know that the announcers are on different deals, yet also perform in the ring (we don't forget you or your pre-Lawler's heart attack shenanigans, Cole). Every time I'm reminded that wrestling is a giant legal landmine I'm glad I've only just been a fan/viewer.... Again, this is honestly why nobody major is going to acquire WWE. If Disney for example even hinted at wanting to acquire the company, the potential PR nightmare would be on a scale the business probably hasn't seen since Benoit with much wider implications for everyone.
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ayumidah
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Post by ayumidah on Dec 2, 2019 19:22:09 GMT -5
Ryan Satin of ProWrestlingSheet.com is reporting that Mauro Ranallo has informed WWE officials that he will be resuming his commentary duties on this week's edition of WWE NXT. Satin noted the following:
"Sources tell us Ranallo is scheduled to be on commentary as usual Wednesday night alongside Beth Phoenix and Nigel McGuinness on USA Network."
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 2, 2019 19:40:11 GMT -5
I hope the NXT fans at Full Sail give Mauro a standing ovation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 20:38:34 GMT -5
Ryan Satin of ProWrestlingSheet.com is reporting that Mauro Ranallo has informed WWE officials that he will be resuming his commentary duties on this week's edition of WWE NXT. Satin noted the following: "Sources tell us Ranallo is scheduled to be on commentary as usual Wednesday night alongside Beth Phoenix and Nigel McGuinness on USA Network." Welcome back Mauro.
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