Does wrestling need to be believable?

[autisticgeordie]

Like, It really does my head in when you get wrestling fans criticising a style of wrestling that they don't like with 'Oh, it's not believable' it happens a lot when anyone wants to shit on comedy wrestling or intergender wrestling, but I'm sure it happens for things like lucha libre and other things like that, too.

If people are so obsessed with having something that's a beliveable product, then why watch professional wrestling at all? If you want believability so badly then just watch a shoot sport like UFC. It's just so annoying when you always get these fans who have to complain about everything deciding to go and piss on others' parade by saying "Oh, it's not believable."

The thing is, the great thing about wrestling is that there is something out there for everyone, you're well within your right to not enjoy a style of wrestling, but the thing is, there's going to be a promotion out there that caters to whatever style of wrestling you prefer. You have promotions like AEW that do a great mix of comedy and serious stuff, therefore catering to a wider audience.

I honestly don't think all of wrestling needs to be believable, but what's your take on believability in wrestling? Do you think that it flat out needs to be believable to be good, or do think there can be some wiggle room with regards to believability?

[Instant Classic]

I’m trying to think of wrestling as comics where Wonder Woman would kick Batman’s ass any day of the week, but it’s just kind of cringey to me to think Tessa Blanchard beat Brian Cage. Granted I didn’t see it I just heard about it. I’m trying though.

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 16:49:39 GMT -5 Instant Classic said:

I’m trying to think of wrestling as comics where Wonder Woman would kick Batman’s ass any day of the week, but it’s just kind of cringey to me to think Tessa Blanchard beat Brian Cage. Granted I didn’t see it I just heard about it. I’m trying though.

So you're basing an opinion on something and automatically deciding it sucks without even seeing it? You're not even willing to give it a chance?? 

[cjh]

Historically, the serious stuff is what sold tickets, so wrestlers were expected to stick with that.  Jim Ross has told a story of Dick Murdoch being in a heated angle in Mid-South Wrestling, and when Murdoch started doing his Three Stooges selling in a match, the opponent punched Murdoch in the face because the guy believed the comedy stuff would hurt them with the fans.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

All pro wrestling requires a suspension of disbelief, IMO. Even hyper realistic stuff like UWFi, it’s MMA influenced but if I tilt my head I can see where it’s a show. There’s an in-built cooperation good pro wrestling needs that a legit fight doesn’t have.

Really, the best thing about wrestling is its versatility. The mission is to entertain people, because they’ve known it’s a work deep down since the stone ages so you’ll never fool them into thinking it’s real. And that can be done in a variety of styles.

The 1994 Misawa/Kawada match and the Broken Hardyz matches are on opposite ends of the “realism vs. outrageousness” scale, but I find them both thrilling and I’m likely to go with either one depending on my mood.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Serious believable stuff is what has drawn money so far, you can have funny stuff and other shit but never in the main event.

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 16:58:45 GMT -5 cjh said:

Historically, the serious stuff is what sold tickets, so wrestlers were expected to stick with that.  Jim Ross has told a story of Dick Murdoch being in a heated angle in Mid-South Wrestling, and when Murdoch started doing his Three Stooges selling in a match, the opponent punched Murdoch in the face because the guy believed the comedy stuff would hurt them with the fans.

When I think of 'Dick Murdoch' the word 'comedy' never really entered my head until now. Also, how much of a deathwish would you have to have to look at a dude like Dick Murdoch and go 'Yeah; I'll take my chances with him.'

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Dec 12, 2019 17:07:08 GMT -5 autisticgeordie said:

Dec 12, 2019 16:58:45 GMT -5 cjh said:

Historically, the serious stuff is what sold tickets, so wrestlers were expected to stick with that.  Jim Ross has told a story of Dick Murdoch being in a heated angle in Mid-South Wrestling, and when Murdoch started doing his Three Stooges selling in a match, the opponent punched Murdoch in the face because the guy believed the comedy stuff would hurt them with the fans.

When I think of 'Dick Murdoch' the word 'comedy' never really entered my head until now. Also, how much of a deathwish would you have to have to look at a dude like Dick Murdoch and go 'Yeah; I'll take my chances with him.'

After reading both Dusty and Terry Funks’ books, Murdoch wasn’t that tough he was more of the town’s drunk.

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 17:12:31 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Dec 12, 2019 17:07:08 GMT -5 autisticgeordie said:

When I think of 'Dick Murdoch' the word 'comedy' never really entered my head until now. Also, how much of a deathwish would you have to have to look at a dude like Dick Murdoch and go 'Yeah; I'll take my chances with him.'

After reading both Dusty and Terry Funks’ books, Murdoch wasn’t that tough he was more of the town’s drunk.

I mean, I just took a look at him and imagined that considering his build and the fact he was in the rougher and tougher territory days that he'd be one of those Harley Race or Bad News Brown types where he could break someone in two without breaking a sweat. I mean, I'm taking Terry's word for it considering Terry is one of the toughest bastards to grace the squared circle.

[Instant Classic]

Dec 12, 2019 16:51:24 GMT -5 autisticgeordie said:

Dec 12, 2019 16:49:39 GMT -5 Instant Classic said:

I’m trying to think of wrestling as comics where Wonder Woman would kick Batman’s ass any day of the week, but it’s just kind of cringey to me to think Tessa Blanchard beat Brian Cage. Granted I didn’t see it I just heard about it. I’m trying though.

So you're basing an opinion on something and automatically deciding it sucks without even seeing it? You're not even willing to give it a chance?? 

Thats why I said I haven’t seen it, not so much I don’t want to see it it’s just I haven’t watched Impact in years. I think Tessa is fantastic though and I’m sure if I did see it I may have a different opinion. I was just saying cause dudes like 3 times her size.

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 17:17:24 GMT -5 Instant Classic said:

Dec 12, 2019 16:51:24 GMT -5 autisticgeordie said:

So you're basing an opinion on something and automatically deciding it sucks without even seeing it? You're not even willing to give it a chance?? 

Thats why I said I haven’t seen it, not so much I don’t want to see it it’s just I haven’t watched Impact in years. I think Tessa is fantastic though and I’m sure if I did see it I may have a different opinion. I was just saying cause dudes like 3 times her size.

OK, I apologise for getting so defensive and snappy with my remark, but my thing is that it's not like Tessa is overpowering Brian, it's more like that she's having to dodge and move, quicken the pace and trying to catch Cage with a surprise roll-up, for example. Like, there's been countless cases in real life of someone who's this tank of an individual being taken down by someone who's much smaller. 

That's probably why I don't have an issue with it, because it's played as Tessa being crafty and having to catch Cage because she knows that she's snookered if she gets caught.

[XIII]

It depends. It has to be good believability, for instance, I can overlook guys like Daniel Bryan, Rey Mistério, etc. hanging with a guy like Brock even though in real life the bigger, stronger guy with legit training is going to beat a small guy the vast majority of the time, because they’re really good at the performance of wrestling. Conversely, I can’t take Shane McMahon or his opponent seriously when you’ve got a 50 year old dude that gets gassed dancing to the ring throwing godawful punches and pretending to be a bad ass jiu-jítsu player that has to get all of the high spots in be for no reason other than to put himself over.

[Starshine]

Movies and TV shows aren't real, but I still expect some semblance of sense and logic within their own narrative context and tone.

If I'm watching something like say, John Wick, and suddenly there's a scene where he's doing some slapstick comedic routine and slipping on banana peels, it going to take me out of the film. Conversely, if I'm watching Airplane and there's a dramatic scene where the inexperienced pilot is trying to land the plane while coping with his alcoholism, again it takes me completely out of the film. There needs to be contextual explanation for what you're seeing otherwise the whole things is a logical mess.

Things like comedy, ironic, and inter-gender wrestling a micro niche products within an already niece product. I completely understand why they may not appeal to a majority of the fanbase.

[Deleted]

I cannot tell you how many times I read this when LU was going , not around here mind you but the ammount of....magical gauntlet? cannibalistic brother that is eating peoples faces only to be greeted with....what is this unrealistic cartoony shit LU SUX! it is why no one watches etc etc

Thankfully there was also the understanding that this is a show that has its own rules and its own developed world where these and more insane things can and will happen.

That first contingent though drove me up a wall sometimes just reading shit about how cartoony LU was only to hear those same contingent of people mark for guys like Taker and Bray Wyatt.

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 17:35:42 GMT -5 @sigmax said:

I cannot tell you how many times I read this when LU was going , not around here mind you but the ammount of....magical gauntlet? cannibalistic brother that is eating peoples faces only to be greeted with....what is this unrealistic cartoony shit LU SUX! it is why no one watches etc etc

Thankfully there was also the understanding that this is a show that has its own rules and its own developed world where these and more insane things can and will happen.

That first contingent though drove me up a wall sometimes just reading shit about how cartoony LU was only to hear those same contingent of people mark for guys like Taker and Bray Wyatt.

As someone who was a f***ing massive LU mark, now I've just gotten sad remembering how much potential LU had and how great it's direction was, only for it to go out, not with a bang, but with a whimper.

[Mister Pigwell]

Ah now that you've edited the title and post to not be combative about it (thank you)...

No, absolutely not. Not for me anyways. I like the idea of so many different forms of wrestling right now. Some super serious, some not serious at all. I absolutely subscribe to the circus/performance-art mentality of things so you can pick and choose what ya like.

Like, LU was a fantastic concept. I don't want it to be the industry standard, but for what t was it was fine being just that.

I like the concept of oh hey I can get into a fighting game where I don't find it ridiculous that my girl Sakura can kick Sagat's ass.
I also like the concept of presenting it as super serious biggest guy out there means he's the best.

I say it all the time but it's about flavors. All of it should exist on all levels.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2019 17:38:52 GMT -5 autisticgeordie said:

Dec 12, 2019 17:35:42 GMT -5 @sigmax said:

I cannot tell you how many times I read this when LU was going , not around here mind you but the ammount of....magical gauntlet? cannibalistic brother that is eating peoples faces only to be greeted with....what is this unrealistic cartoony shit LU SUX! it is why no one watches etc etc

Thankfully there was also the understanding that this is a show that has its own rules and its own developed world where these and more insane things can and will happen.

That first contingent though drove me up a wall sometimes just reading shit about how cartoony LU was only to hear those same contingent of people mark for guys like Taker and Bray Wyatt.

As someone who was a f***ing massive LU mark, now I've just gotten sad remembering how much potential LU had and how great it's direction was, only for it to go out, not with a bang, but with a whimper.

Oh it went with a bang but that bang deserved closure

Hopefully we will get it heard through the preverbial grapevine there is a group that wants to do a LU documentary where we can get all real info that ruined what should be the best currently running wrestling show on TV.

Erik Van Wagnen has said if and when his NDA is up he will talk about all the stupid backstage drama in the possible Documentary.

[Allie Kitsune]

Dec 12, 2019 17:35:42 GMT -5 @sigmax said:

I cannot tell you how many times I read this when LU was going , not around here mind you but the ammount of....magical gauntlet? cannibalistic brother that is eating peoples faces only to be greeted with....what is this unrealistic cartoony shit LU SUX! it is why no one watches etc etc

Thankfully there was also the understanding that this is a show that has its own rules and its own developed world where these and more insane things can and will happen.

That first contingent though drove me up a wall sometimes just reading shit about how cartoony LU was only to hear those same contingent of people mark for guys like Taker and Bray Wyatt.

The reason LU worked was because it established its own world and rules, but even moreso because the talent's gimmicks and stories weren't tied down to what they'd done in other companies or what sort of reputation they'd cultivated on Twitter. And in turn, their LU exploits weren't expected to follow them throughout the rest of their careers (even if it did in the case of talent like the Lucha Brothers, Vibora/Luchasaurus, and Jeff Cobb).

[autisticgeordie]

Dec 12, 2019 17:47:38 GMT -5 Mister Pigwell said:

Ah now that you've edited the title and post to not be combative about it (thank you)...

No, absolutely not. Not for me anyways. I like the idea of so many different forms of wrestling right now. Some super serious, some not serious at all. I absolutely subscribe to the circus/performance-art mentality of things so you can pick and choose what ya like.

Like, LU was a fantastic concept. I don't want it to be the industry standard, but for what t was it was fine being just that.

I like the concept of oh hey I can get into a fighting game where I don't find it ridiculous that my girl Sakura can kick Sagat's ass.
I also like the concept of presenting it as super serious biggest guy out there means he's the best.

I say it all the time but it's about flavors. All of it should exist on all levels.

No problem, the edited thread is really what I was trying to say with it the entire time, like, I've always found that my favourite performers are the ones who can do both comedy and believable wrestling, like, Orange Cassidy and Chuck Taylor are both focused on comedy, but when they put on their working boots and wrestle a serious match, they can do it just as good as anyone.

[cassonova]

Yes and no. I think a good company should establish its own rules as to what is believable and as long as it works within those rules it is fine. I look at Lucha Underground and its fantasy aspects and Chikara with its comic book inspired exploits. I don't want to see Joey Ryan do Bloodsport, because the dick stuff clashes with the MMA inspired rules there.