Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,204
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 10, 2020 3:10:22 GMT -5
It didn't work because they turned Carlito heel, and then had Flair go over him. I am mostly glad he did because it put "backstabber" as the name of the move in popular use. "Backcracker" is f***ing terrible, and sounds like a move he'd do to help someone relax after a long day at work.
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Post by héad.casé on Jan 10, 2020 4:07:22 GMT -5
I remember Flair saying somewhere that right before this he had got into an argument with Vince about whether Ric's heel work in the 80's would still work back then in 2009, and Vince told him it wouldn't and they got into a fight about the thing, so Flair got super pissed and was really fired up for this promo.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,466
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Post by msc on Jan 10, 2020 4:33:10 GMT -5
Carlito was in a really lazy period at that time, in terms of the ring, and that public shaming was designed to try and light a fire under him as he had shown so much promise in 2006. Instead, he was half assed for years until they got rid in 2010, and I went from thinking he was a future World champ in 2006 to not really caring about him at all.
Mr Kennedy never advanced beyond cool gimmick/theme tune. He had dull matches with 2008 era Shawn Michaels, how is that possible?
Umaga would have been a huge star but for his drug habit which killed him. Such a waste.
Chris Masters was weird - the better he got in ring, the less he got pushed.
MVP I wouldn't count among these others. Usually 9 times out of 10 when he was in the ring you knew you were going to get a solid showing at least. But he had the worst luck and booking of a sure fire hit in some time. Best example was setting up a long term Mania feud with Matt Hardy, only for Matt Hardy to take seriously ill in late 2007 and have to miss Mania, leading to MVP being held in statis and losing pretty much all of his momentum.
Funny thing is after the 2007 Rumble, Mr Kennedy got a lot of praise for "carrying" Batista to a good match. Batista's online stock in early 2007 was the lowest it ever was after a bad return from injury and lots of Ego Stories online (several of which turned out to be fake in the end, seemingly spread by certain "wrestling journalists" of that time). Taker/Batista was put early on during Mania 23 as Vince and co even thought Batista would stink out the joint. But what this did, in contrast to the whole Carlito message at the same time, is really fire up Big Dave. He spent years afterwards seemingly trying to prove that wrong, and really upped his game ethic.
Hell, he went within a year from have a crap match with Booker T (!) to producing a properly great match with The Great Khali!!!
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 4:35:49 GMT -5
Ehh work ethic aside, Lesnar getting his big push and leaving is still the ultimate reason why Vince doesn't give his all to wrestlers. Can somewhat add Rock leaving to Hollywood in that example too since it isn't that far apart Also, look at how Cena was treated in 2016 and then in 2017. Might as well be two different people, all because Cena went to do more movies.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 10, 2020 7:27:31 GMT -5
It didn't work because they turned Carlito heel, and then had Flair go over him. I am mostly glad he did because it put "backstabber" as the name of the move in popular use. "Backcracker" is f***ing terrible, and sounds like a move he'd do to help someone relax after a long day at work. And "Lungblower" sounds even worse.
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PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,615
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Post by PKO on Jan 10, 2020 7:49:28 GMT -5
I guess I had the Mandela effect because I always thought Flair slapped Carlito here.
It was definitely a dig at Carlito’s real life attitude, with him being perceived as lazy by many backstage. Maybe Vince hoped it would be a wake up call? Maybe he just wanted to insult him on TV. I think Carlito (and Shelton Benjamin) were the first guys who weren’t seen as hungry enough by WWE, and would play video games instead of what they were “supposed to be doing”.
Also, this was basically Flair’s promo at the end:
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 10, 2020 8:46:53 GMT -5
Wh, MVP didn't do too badly. Well I did say by extension He didn't do too badly but he was supposed to be a guy more than he was tho. Got vignettes and promos for 2 months before his debut and got opening feuds against Kane and winning the US title from Chris Benoit He went from the then US title record to losing streak MVP kind of cost himself too because when WWE amped up drug testing he berated the person doing his drug test and it really put the office down on him
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,420
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Post by Abdullah on Jan 10, 2020 8:52:09 GMT -5
I don’t know. Understanding what we do now about how WWE treats talent, as well as false promises of brass rings, this promo rubs me the wrong way.
Carlito is being yelled at for treating WWE like any other job. This is not the most unreasonable mindset to have, by any stretch.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 10, 2020 9:02:36 GMT -5
I don’t know. Understanding what we do now about how WWE treats talent, as well as false promises of brass rings, this promo rubs me the wrong way. Carlito is being yelled at for treating WWE like any other job. This is not the most unreasonable mindset to have, by any stretch. Is it unreasonable to expect someone to show ambition and work hard at their job?
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,732
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Post by nisidhe on Jan 10, 2020 9:04:37 GMT -5
As a middle-aged woman with numerous nephews currently around the age Carlito was then, I can tell you that a lecture like that would invariably be blown off.
Carlito knew that he was going to be given breaks others with his attitude wouldn't have received, and knew he would get away with what he was doing anyway. The promo served a number of purposes, not all of which were for Carlito alone. It showed that WWE knew where Carlito's priorities lay, and were prepared to expose him to the locker room, to the North American TV audience and, quite probably, to Carlos Colon (Carlito's father). Bear in mind that this was still when guys like Undertaker and JBL were holding wrestlers' court, so the hazing culture would still have been in place.
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 9:07:16 GMT -5
I don’t know. Understanding what we do now about how WWE treats talent, as well as false promises of brass rings, this promo rubs me the wrong way. Carlito is being yelled at for treating WWE like any other job. This is not the most unreasonable mindset to have, by any stretch. Is it unreasonable to expect someone to show ambition and work hard at their job? Sure, but on the flip side of that, if you're doing what is required of you and you're not setting out to hurt people, it's not really doing any harm to anyone else really. Not everyone is going to be the next big star and even from some of the politics, even if you do work hard, it could go away if someone in management thinks you looked at them funny in the cafeteria or something. That's not to say there isn't room for anything further in wrestling but...nobody's going to WWE because they can produce good art on the biggest stage for the most part, you know.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 10, 2020 9:11:34 GMT -5
Is it unreasonable to expect someone to show ambition and work hard at their job? Sure, but on the flip side of that, if you're doing what is required of you and you're not setting out to hurt people, it's not really doing any harm to anyone else really. Not everyone is going to be the next big star and even from some of the politics, even if you do work hard, it could go away if someone in management thinks you looked at them funny in the cafeteria or something. That's not to say there isn't room for anything further in wrestling but...nobody's going to WWE because they can produce good art on the biggest stage for the most part, you know. Right, but my understanding is that Carlito did want to be featured more and be a main event player but didn’t really want to work for it and earn it. That’s the vibe I got from listening to Prichard’s podcast on him.
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 9:16:03 GMT -5
Sure, but on the flip side of that, if you're doing what is required of you and you're not setting out to hurt people, it's not really doing any harm to anyone else really. Not everyone is going to be the next big star and even from some of the politics, even if you do work hard, it could go away if someone in management thinks you looked at them funny in the cafeteria or something. That's not to say there isn't room for anything further in wrestling but...nobody's going to WWE because they can produce good art on the biggest stage for the most part, you know. Right, but my understanding is that Carlito did want to be featured more and be a main event player but didn’t really want to work for it and earn it. That’s the vibe I got from listening to Prichard’s podcast on him. I mean, he wasn’t exactly quiet about feeling like he was booked poorly because he doing interviews all the time saying as much. Why he was allowed to KEEP doing those interviews, I have no f***ing idea but I’m not WWE PR.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,502
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Post by Rican on Jan 10, 2020 9:39:05 GMT -5
f***ing hated it then and hate it even more now. It's more of the same "GRAB THE BRASS RING" nonsense that we know is complete bullshit and brought backstage stuff no one cares about into a storyline. Also more of the "back in my day kids these days" boomer bullshit that I can't stand.
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,420
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Post by Abdullah on Jan 10, 2020 9:47:48 GMT -5
I don’t know. Understanding what we do now about how WWE treats talent, as well as false promises of brass rings, this promo rubs me the wrong way. Carlito is being yelled at for treating WWE like any other job. This is not the most unreasonable mindset to have, by any stretch. Is it unreasonable to expect someone to show ambition and work hard at their job? I think the counterargument to that is a lot of people believe WWE’s spiel, with little to show for it. I think the counterargument with Carlito, specifically, is that the guy wanted out. Vince made him promises he never kept, the Jedi mindtrick, driving him to depression and an abuse of pain pills. Beyond Carlito though, I find that promo disgusting. The whole vibe of ‘be like me… give your life to this!’ is a troubling message. Between Carlito’s view of “this business”, and the one Ric is shouting, I’ll take Carlito’s supposed attitude any day.
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 9:52:27 GMT -5
Think the other thing to think about is even during Flair's time, or more so closer to when he was reaching his peak, the WWF had so much money and resources, a lot of the guys signed contracts realising it was a big payday after years of beating the crap out of yourself for weeks on end.
Ted Dibiase in the territories and WWF Ted Dibiase might as well be two different people for example.
It's why I can't get too onto Shinsuke Nakamura for not being at the level he once was. He did that already for years, he's older than he was back then, he deserves to do what he needs to do now to get paid. That's the dream for most wrestlers.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 10, 2020 9:55:55 GMT -5
Ehh work ethic aside, Lesnar getting his big push and leaving is still the ultimate reason why Vince doesn't give his all to wrestlers. Can somewhat add Rock leaving to Hollywood in that example too since it isn't that far apart Also, look at how Cena was treated in 2016 and then in 2017. Might as well be two different people, all because Cena went to do more movies. I mean it was a mutually exclusive beneficial relationship for both parties. Everyone benefited and with Cena doing more movies you aren’t going to really spotlight him like you did before
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 9:58:19 GMT -5
Also, look at how Cena was treated in 2016 and then in 2017. Might as well be two different people, all because Cena went to do more movies. I mean it was a mutually exclusive beneficial relationship for both parties. Everyone benefited and with Cena doing more movies you aren’t going to really spotlight him like you did before I mean, Cena didn't benefit. After that whole run, in my eyes anyway, he felt way less like a star and just "a dude".
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 10, 2020 10:11:58 GMT -5
I mean it was a mutually exclusive beneficial relationship for both parties. Everyone benefited and with Cena doing more movies you aren’t going to really spotlight him like you did before I mean, Cena didn't benefit. After that whole run, in my eyes anyway, he felt way less like a star and just "a dude". You serious? In what way he didn’t benefit? He was literally the face of the promotion for practically a decade and it has transferred to Hollywood. He is one of the rare stars of this era that has his name known by the public I know we all got anti WWE sentiment but cmon now let’s be rational
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Post by eJm on Jan 10, 2020 10:21:23 GMT -5
I mean, Cena didn't benefit. After that whole run, in my eyes anyway, he felt way less like a star and just "a dude". You serious? In what way he didn’t benefit? He was literally the face of the promotion for practically a decade and it has transferred to Hollywood. He is one of the rare stars of this era that has his name known by the public I know we all got anti WWE sentiment but cmon now let’s be rational For a start, Cena was announced for the Smackdown Survivor Series team in 2016, Stephanie showed no concern over this even though it's John Cena and it didn't matter anyway because he was one of the people Braun killed near the end of the first third. Then, there was the entire storyline with the Undertaker. Say what you will about the conclusion but you can't tell me that nobody, not a single person, would want to wrestle and beat John Cena at WrestleMania? Especially after commentary hyping him up as the biggest deal? Come on, man. And after that segment and challenge to the Undertaker, Braun cuts a promo where he says he's got no plans for WrestleMania after John Cena challenged anyone to face him at WrestleMania? You had the chance, Braun! He was in there for 20 minutes! And then was the feud with Roman, done at the next PPV, built on the fact Roman can't cut a good non-scripted promo and where Cena was beaten by him not even in a "past the torch" way but in a "you're well past your prime and have nothing left, f*** off" sort of way. Also, this year alone the one big-time Cena did anything was to introduce the anniversary show...and leave. That's it. The Rock wouldn't just say a promo and leave, nor would any other legend so why the f*** do you have the dude that carried your company on his back for a decade doing that? I'm not even the dude's biggest fan but he was done dirty at times.
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