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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Mar 22, 2020 10:01:45 GMT -5
For whatever reason. I think the short answer is yes. Absolutely.
Like when Edge retired the first time because of injury. If he got squashed or something it probably would’ve sucked. Or ADR could’ve beat him at Mania and it would have been unspectacular. But instead he retired as champ which was a great moment and a sad but memorable farewell speech.
Overall though I have to say that I HATE when people forfeit titles. In 99% of the time I don’t care how crappy or crazy the booking has to be. Anything safe is preferable to a forfeiture.
There are all kinds of ways that have either been tried or theorized to avoid a champ forfeiting. Have the champ pick a substitute to defend for them, have the champ keep the title without wrestling for a long time (Shane Douglas in ECW, CM Punk), have the title defended in a tag match where the champ doesn’t actually wrestle and loses it that way, have the champ get “jumped” before the match but the title still up for grabs in a multiman match, have the champ get jumped and appear on camera in a multiman match, have the champ work hurt for a short squash match.
The last one is the worst as I think it is unconscionable in this day for a predetermined sport to force someone to work hurt for any amount of time. I’d honestly prefer a forfeiture in that case. But before we even get to that I’d prefer one of the other methods get used.
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Mar 22, 2020 10:21:53 GMT -5
It is unfortunate, especially with the example you provided in Edge. Watching Daniel Bryan retire was crushing for everyone.
Whether it be an injury, or worse a career threatening injury, forfeiture is a compelling option as it sets up many possibilities for where the title, and company, goes from there. I personally prefer a tournament/battle royale to decide a new champ over the "hot-shot" squash to get the belt off the champ. The more factors you can add to something like this the better, as it creates intrigue rather than, "Oh, 'he's' winning the belt right now." This is a big reason why the Money in the Bank ran it's course so quickly, for me.
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Post by chrom on Mar 22, 2020 10:53:47 GMT -5
When Atsushi Kotoge in NOAH forfeited the Jr Title on the grounds that he didn't want to be champion of the division anymore I was livid
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 22, 2020 12:40:35 GMT -5
Yes, but it depends on circumstances
Like, if you have to have surgery and can't defend the title and have to forfeit, their should be some type of segment to put someone over. I hated that Gail Kim won the Impact title from Maria (and she went into the HOF that night) but reports came out she needed back surgery so they just said she gave up the title therefore putting no one over. No, she doesn't have to get physical but at the time Rosemary was on her way up and having a segment where you find her laid out in the back with mist on her face would have gone a long way.
Situations like Edge can''t be helped or if you need emergency surgery but other times it is lazy
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Post by corndog on Mar 22, 2020 14:09:17 GMT -5
I think in cases of injury, forfeiting the belt is fine. I absolutely HATED Shane Douglas holding onto the ECW title for 6 months without defending it.
On the other hand, there is Shawn "losing his smile". Shawn still to this day claims it was a legit knee injury and he did get surgery which he recovered from shortly after Wrestlemania. But on the other hand, considering he recovered from the surgery in about two months, he probably could have held it off, dropped the belt at Wrestlemania(probably to Bret) and gotten the surgery afterwards. But in the end, we got the great Austin/Hart "I quit" match, which both put over Austin huge and I bet Shawn/Bret wouldn't have been nearly as good in the circumstances.
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 22, 2020 14:28:04 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset.
I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 22, 2020 14:33:05 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset. I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while. Like when they took the title off EC3 and did that big ass tournament only for him to win the title again
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 22, 2020 14:49:51 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset. I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while. Like when they took the title off EC3 and did that big ass tournament only for him to win the title again Yeah, another being stuff like Fujinami having the IWGP title held up due to a No Contest, but then just beating the same guy he No Contested with, so he got the title back for a second reign. Having an indecisive finish lead to a rematch is fine, but vacating the belt to do that is stupid.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 22, 2020 14:56:33 GMT -5
The NWA became what it became because their first champ (Orville Brown) had to forfeit his title after an auto accident. He forfeited it to Lou Thesz, who worked for a different conglomerate (also called the NWA, but not the same company), who went on to turn the title into the most important title in the U.S.
So...sometimes it's a good thing.
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Post by SAJ Forth on Mar 22, 2020 15:36:01 GMT -5
Yes, but it depends on circumstances Like, if you have to have surgery and can't defend the title and have to forfeit, their should be some type of segment to put someone over. I hated that Gail Kim won the Impact title from Maria (and she went into the HOF that night) but reports came out she needed back surgery so they just said she gave up the title therefore putting no one over. No, she doesn't have to get physical but at the time Rosemary was on her way up and having a segment where you find her laid out in the back with mist on her face would have gone a long way. Situations like Edge can''t be helped or if you need emergency surgery but other times it is lazy I agree with this. I never looked past Gail becoming a wrestling Mary Sue, even if she put Blanchard over, it won't make up for all those she wouldn't.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 22, 2020 15:39:13 GMT -5
Yes, but it depends on circumstances Like, if you have to have surgery and can't defend the title and have to forfeit, their should be some type of segment to put someone over. I hated that Gail Kim won the Impact title from Maria (and she went into the HOF that night) but reports came out she needed back surgery so they just said she gave up the title therefore putting no one over. No, she doesn't have to get physical but at the time Rosemary was on her way up and having a segment where you find her laid out in the back with mist on her face would have gone a long way. Situations like Edge can''t be helped or if you need emergency surgery but other times it is lazy I agree with this. I never looked past Gail becoming a wrestling Mary Sue, even if she put Blanchard over, it won't make up for all those she wouldn't. She gets some applause for putting over Tessa but i'm not sounding the alarm. Gail also won the title in her retirement match and then forfeited it. Keep in mind Sienna was a decent champ at that point and Allie was coming into her own.
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Post by Heeltown, USA on Mar 22, 2020 21:26:57 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset. I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while. Didn’t this happen with JeffJarrett and the Intercontinental title TWICE? I think once against Savio Vega and once against Ahmed? Like a screwy finish led to the title being held up, and a week later on Raw we get the rematch just for Jarrett to get it back. It might have been once with Jarrett and once with Goldust, but the WWF did it like a year apart. As a youngster I thought it was so stupid.
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Mar 22, 2020 22:01:20 GMT -5
If just wandering away from titles wasn’t allowed HBK would be the first guy to hold the tag, IC, World titles all at once!
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Post by thegatewaydrug on Mar 22, 2020 22:38:33 GMT -5
If just wandering away from titles wasn’t allowed HBK would be the first guy to hold the tag, IC, World titles all at once! This guy agrees:
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Post by Wardlow on Wardlow 54 on Mar 24, 2020 22:33:11 GMT -5
I can give a pass on forfeitures that are done because of injuries, since it can't be helped. Nobody wanted Edge bumping off a ladder to put Del Rio over, for example. However, having someone give up a title or stripping them so they don't have to job(Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan, I'm looking at you two...) is egregious to me. Especially in the Michaels' cases. Suspended. If you know he failed a drug test, have him drop it at the next taping, then suspend him. If you're splitting him and Diesel up, have them lose because they couldn't get along. The Syracuse beating. Ok, yeah. The second tag title run with Diesel. Um, don't do it in the first place if you have no plan? Lost his smile. "Listen, f***er. We've treated you like a damn king and now you're screwing us over ahead of our biggest show of the year? Put a brace on, man up, and drop the title to Bret!"
But that's just me.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Mar 24, 2020 22:41:53 GMT -5
I always wanted to see them do an angle where the heel challenger manages to do so many shady things to stack the deck against the Champ, that the Champ just decides to give up the title. He sells it like "I don't need this BS, I am willing to give up this title by forfeit rather than entertain the farce of this being a legitimate title defense". Then the authority figure, who was previously on the heel managers side, realizing that he's gone too far and can't devalue the title in such a fashion, has to actually step in and pull back on what the heels doing.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 24, 2020 22:50:55 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset. I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while. Yeah... Del Rio losing at Mania... and it taking like a year before he was given the title pretty much killed him. (doubly so because his character basically cut the same "Destiny!" promo from the time he won the rumble until he won the title...)
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 24, 2020 23:05:14 GMT -5
I always wanted to see them do an angle where the heel challenger manages to do so many shady things to stack the deck against the Champ, that the Champ just decides to give up the title. He sells it like "I don't need this BS, I am willing to give up this title by forfeit rather than entertain the farce of this being a legitimate title defense". Then the authority figure, who was previously on the heel managers side, realizing that he's gone too far and can't devalue the title in such a fashion, has to actually step in and pull back on what the heels doing. That could be interesting. You'd need to walk a fine line with that, since it could make the face look cowardly, or could sour people on the company, but I could see it being a good way to instill the idea the champion is a person of integrity.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Mar 24, 2020 23:16:21 GMT -5
I think the worst is when Daniel Bryan won the title via Scott Armstrong fast count, and they just vacated it so Bryan could lose to Orton at Hell in a Cell, and in between there was the Bryan vs. Orton match that ended via Big Show interference.
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Post by 67 more on Mar 25, 2020 4:03:04 GMT -5
In the Edge example, I really do think Del Rio never recovered from that. It was a terrible booking decision given they didn't know Edge was done yet, I think, but on the same token, Del Rio's a dickhead, so I don't feel too upset. I think what bothers me more than forfeitures are when the title gets held up due to some odd decision, vacated, and then the champion just wins it back, anyway. That's filler, and a tacit admission you've ran out of ideas for booking your champion. Which is a pretty good indication someone else should just be champion for a while. Yeah... Del Rio losing at Mania... and it taking like a year before he was given the title pretty much killed him. (doubly so because his character basically cut the same "Destiny!" promo from the time he won the rumble until he won the title...) Del Rio won the title at Summerslam that year after cashing in MITB. He would then drop the belt at Night of Champions before regaining it at Hell in a Cell.
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