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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 20, 2020 13:22:22 GMT -5
I dunno I'm pretty sure that was a thing before that. He was just a little more blatant about it. I think the problem with Batman in the Justice League has always been that he's a normal man (albeit an obscenely rich one) standing among gods, but he's also the most popular superhero at DC so needs to be there. So writers (not just Morrison) always end up having to justify his presence in some way or another and they can get a bit overboard about it. Personally I think once Frank Miller had Batman beat Superman in a fight (even if he cheated like mad which made sense in context) the gloves were off already in the "Make Batman beat someone who should by all accounts reduce him to a smear" Sweepstakes. "firmly implanted" does not equal "the first one to hint at it" And it absolutely was the place where it was firmly implanted, during the Prometheus storyline. I disagree but fair enough. I will admit my favorite part of Green Lantern Rebirth was Hal coldcocking Batman when he tried his usual bullshit. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 20, 2020 13:31:16 GMT -5
The Prometheus storyline was where it was revealed that Bats had a contingency plan to take down all of his teammates if he had to, which Prometheus exploited. That concept, even hinted at, didn't exist before that arc in-continuity. Miller's DKR had bits of it a decade-plus before, no argument there, but DKR wasn't in-continuity.
With that said, as we see it differently, let's go on to other things.
*ahem*
Stan Lee was mediocre writer carried by his artists.
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Post by thechase on Apr 20, 2020 13:33:21 GMT -5
Steve Ditko was probably Stan's weakest Spider-Man artist
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 20, 2020 13:37:31 GMT -5
Steve Ditko was probably Stan's weakest Spider-Man artist I'll go one further: Ditko was as one-note as artists get. He never improved or evolved. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 20, 2020 13:40:23 GMT -5
I dunno I'm pretty sure that was a thing before that. He was just a little more blatant about it. I think the problem with Batman in the Justice League has always been that he's a normal man (albeit an obscenely rich one) standing among gods, but he's also the most popular superhero at DC so needs to be there. So writers (not just Morrison) always end up having to justify his presence in some way or another and they can get a bit overboard about it. Personally I think once Frank Miller had Batman beat Superman in a fight (even if he cheated like mad which made sense in context) the gloves were off already in the "Make Batman beat someone who should by all accounts reduce him to a smear" Sweepstakes. "firmly implanted" does not equal "the first one to hint at it" And it absolutely was the place where it was firmly implanted, during the Prometheus storyline. Yeah, Frank Miller may have gotten the ball rolling... but Dark Knight Returns has a few things going for it in that regards. 1. It's out of continuity. 2. a Superman that doesn't want to fight, Batman's suit, Green Arrow with a kryptonite arrow, Robin taking pot shots from the bat tank, Superman recovering from being hit with a f***ing nuke... it flat out goes out of it's way to say... Batman has no f***ing chance against Superman even in the best conditions... because and here's #3. 3. Superman for all intents and purposes wins the fight. Batman has to fake his own death to get out of it... and Superman knows he's faking his own death... which goes back to the first thing in point 2. Superman does everything in his power not to fight Batman... he gives him chance after chance to just talk it out... hell he writes a message with his heat vision asking for a time and place... if Superman wanted to just end Bruce that message would have been in his skull. For all of the Faults of DKR ... including it not entirely getting Superman's character at all... it did get right the power imbalance between Batman and Superman that in a fight... Bats is screwed... and that Batman KNOWS he's screwed. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 20, 2020 13:48:05 GMT -5
If his name were Johnny Nobody instead of John Romita Jr. he'd be working in a box factory instead of comics.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 20, 2020 14:17:00 GMT -5
If his name were Johnny Nobody instead of John Romita Jr. he'd be working in a box factory instead of comics. No publisher gives a shit who his father is anymore - like his style or despise it, it sells. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 20, 2020 14:37:28 GMT -5
If his name were Johnny Nobody instead of John Romita Jr. he'd be working in a box factory instead of comics. No publisher gives a shit who his father is anymore - like his style or despise it, it sells. For some reason... I actually prefer Rob Liefeld. At least his style is bad in a fun way. |
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Ultimo Gallos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 15,520 
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Apr 20, 2020 15:39:46 GMT -5
No publisher gives a shit who his father is anymore - like his style or despise it, it sells. For some reason... I actually prefer Rob Liefeld. At least his style is bad in a fun way. JRjr is a odd case for me.Liked his Iron Man stuff. His early Uncanny stuff was ok,wasn't he on a few issues right after #200? But once Daredevil Man without Fear hit I just don't like his current style. ALso was never a big fan of his father. DUde has talent and has storytelling skills,something that so many modern artists do not have,but his Spiderman work for me pales when compared to Ditko. Here's a just odd opinon I got from a comic dealer I use for bunk deals ,not sure how this came up during a converstation, "You know most readers will say Rob Liefeld is the Ed Wood of comics. That is crap. The real Ed Wood of comics is Jack Kirby. Dude had good ideas but couldn't execute them well without some help." I kinda agree and disagree with him. Sure Kirby's stuff when he wrote and drew it wasn't as good as say FF or all the pre-code stuff he did. But then there is just something about Kirby's Fourth World,Demon and Sandman runs that works for me. |
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Apr 20, 2020 16:31:11 GMT -5
Earth X had pretty Ross covers, pure crap otherwise. Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza's "quiet" issues of the 90s X-books (the issues that were mostly characters talking, no action) were among the best books in the entire franchise. I couldn't get into Earth X because the interior art was indistinguishable inky shit I feel Lobdell & Nicieza don't get enough credit for their X run |
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Post by mike1287 on Apr 20, 2020 19:04:09 GMT -5
Wasn't even alluding to his Batman run, but his JLA run. That's where the "Batman can beat EVERYONE" shit got firmly implanted into the regular continuity books. I dunno I'm pretty sure that was a thing before that. He was just a little more blatant about it. I think the problem with Batman in the Justice League has always been that he's a normal man (albeit an obscenely rich one) standing among gods, but he's also the most popular superhero at DC so needs to be there. So writers (not just Morrison) always end up having to justify his presence in some way or another and they can get a bit overboard about it. Personally I think once Frank Miller had Batman beat Superman in a fight (even if he cheated like mad which made sense in context) the gloves were off already in the "Make Batman beat someone who should by all accounts reduce him to a smear" Sweepstakes. I prefer Batman when his adventures are more grounded but given the fact he is DC's most popular superhero he has to be among the 'big guns' in the Justice League. And if he's there he has to be able to pull his own weight. As for the Prometheus story, he might have been using Batman's tactics but A: he has no way for taking out Superman other than to say to him 'commit suicide or I'll kill these hostages' which as plans go is a non-starter B: Batman himself gets beaten like a drum by Prometheus and C: the plan ultimately fails because the heroes rally (as they always do in these kinds of stories unless Jim Starlin is writing them). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 19:09:53 GMT -5
I prefer Batman when his adventures are more grounded but given the fact he is DC's most popular superhero he has to be among the 'big guns' in the Justice League. And if he's there he has to be able to pull his own weight. Batman can definitely be worse about it - though I feel like he functions a lot better when he's presented as something of the strategist of the group - but I feel like a similar problem exists with Spider-Man. He's a huge name for Marvel so he needs to be a huge threat, but honestly he's probably one of the most low-power heroes in the universe. |
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Post by mike1287 on Apr 20, 2020 19:34:43 GMT -5
I prefer Batman when his adventures are more grounded but given the fact he is DC's most popular superhero he has to be among the 'big guns' in the Justice League. And if he's there he has to be able to pull his own weight. Batman can definitely be worse about it - though I feel like he functions a lot better when he's presented as something of the strategist of the group - but I feel like a similar problem exists with Spider-Man. He's a huge name for Marvel so he needs to be a huge threat, but honestly he's probably one of the most low-power heroes in the universe.I think Spider-Man is actually the opposite of Batman: people underestimate him because he's a dork who doesn't seem to take things seriously; but he is incredibly powerful and experienced. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 20, 2020 19:37:40 GMT -5
Batman can definitely be worse about it - though I feel like he functions a lot better when he's presented as something of the strategist of the group - but I feel like a similar problem exists with Spider-Man. He's a huge name for Marvel so he needs to be a huge threat, but honestly he's probably one of the most low-power heroes in the universe.I think Spider-Man is actually the opposite of Batman: people underestimate him because he's a dork who doesn't seem to take things seriously; but he is incredibly powerful and experienced. Yeah, Spider-man is incredibly powerful. |
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
Bald and busy
Posts: 63,350
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Post by CMWaters on Apr 20, 2020 20:18:48 GMT -5
I think Spider-Man is actually the opposite of Batman: people underestimate him because he's a dork who doesn't seem to take things seriously; but he is incredibly powerful and experienced. Yeah, Spider-man is incredibly powerful. Just look at "the rubble scene" from the comics for proof of the power. |
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Post by Citizen Snips on Apr 20, 2020 20:53:19 GMT -5
Batman can definitely be worse about it - though I feel like he functions a lot better when he's presented as something of the strategist of the group - but I feel like a similar problem exists with Spider-Man. He's a huge name for Marvel so he needs to be a huge threat, but honestly he's probably one of the most low-power heroes in the universe.I think Spider-Man is actually the opposite of Batman: people underestimate him because he's a dork who doesn't seem to take things seriously; but he is incredibly powerful and experienced. There was a good little scene at the end of Civil War where Reed Richards just stars in awe as he sees Spidey effortlessly take out 3 other heroes in about 2 seconds, before kicking Reed himself in the face. Spidey would probably qualify as "OP" is not for his personality quirks; super-strength and speed, unparalleled agility, genius level IQ, super-sense to avoid danger, experience with everything for low-level street crime to cosmic events. He's maybe the total package in terms of abilities. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 20, 2020 21:03:41 GMT -5
I prefer Batman when his adventures are more grounded but given the fact he is DC's most popular superhero he has to be among the 'big guns' in the Justice League. And if he's there he has to be able to pull his own weight. Batman can definitely be worse about it - though I feel like he functions a lot better when he's presented as something of the strategist of the group - but I feel like a similar problem exists with Spider-Man. He's a huge name for Marvel so he needs to be a huge threat, but honestly he's probably one of the most low-power heroes in the universe. Spider-Man's beat the crap out of Firelord, a herald of Galactus, once. He's not low-power by any means. On that note though, when you have Winter Soldier, Punisher and Moon Knight being brought in as key players to investigate the murder of one of the oldest and most powerful cosmic beings in the universe... |
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Mozenrath
FANatic
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 20, 2020 21:14:25 GMT -5
I think the problems with Baby Doll are that it's kind of impossible to do a fight scene with her without just feeling uncomfortable and in terms of her specific hangup she's kind of just good for the one story. Is probably why even her second BtAS episode while it's not really bad is largely forgettable. That and she's kinda, if you think about it, an allegory for Gary Coleman's condition...and with Gary no long with us... He's not, but you can still tell a lot of the same kinds of stories about fame, people being unable to escape the typecasting and pigeonholing, hell, even modern stardom on the internet. I think as long as there is fame and its darkside, Baby Doll's woes are unfortunately evergreen. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 20, 2020 21:17:29 GMT -5
Steve Ditko was probably Stan's weakest Spider-Man artist I'll go one further: Ditko was as one-note as artists get. He never improved or evolved. I agree to an extent, albeit with the caveat that he was way ahead of the game in a lot of ways, so people played catch up to him. Once there, though, yeah, he stagnated, especially getting more and more up his own ass in terms of his philosophies. |
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Post by jimmyjackezekiel on Apr 20, 2020 22:38:17 GMT -5
I have never read any comics with this character keep in mind, but from what I have read about him. The Maker is a terrible villain concept that never should have been allowed into the 616 universe.
'He's Reed Richards, but evil!'
Me: We already have an evil version of Reed Richards! He's called Doctor Doom*!
(For extra hipster points replace Doctor Doom with the Wizard)
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