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Post by kingoftheindies on May 10, 2020 22:39:47 GMT -5
I still can't believe the big bad of the first phase of the DCEU was Steppenwolf. How do you mess up that badly? It'd be like making, say, Kro, the big bad of the first Avengers. I feel like for Justice League DC already decided that they knew that the movie was screwed and just wanted to get done with it, but they also did not want to use Darkseid. Felt more like they set Darkseid up as the obvious bad guy that they just picked someone connected to him. As for Ayer's responses. It is pretty well known that DC did panic to the negative reaction to BvS and did a lot of re-edits for Suicide Squad so I can believe what we got was nowhere near the original vision. DC seems to have turned the corner a bit the Wonder Woman movies, Shazam, Aquaman and Harley Quinn (if nothing else it was not boring)
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 10, 2020 22:44:17 GMT -5
I still can't believe the big bad of the first phase of the DCEU was Steppenwolf. How do you mess up that badly? It'd be like making, say, Kro, the big bad of the first Avengers. I feel like for Justice League DC already decided that they knew that the movie was screwed and just wanted to get done with it, but they also did not want to use Darkseid. Felt more like they set Darkseid up as the obvious bad guy that they just picked someone connected to him. As for Ayer's responses. It is pretty well known that DC did panic to the negative reaction to BvS and did a lot of re-edits for Suicide Squad so I can believe what we got was nowhere near the original vision. DC seems to have turned the corner a bit the Wonder Woman movies, Shazam, Aquaman and Harley Quinn (if nothing else it was not boring) It was not. Steppenwolf was Snyder's choice and Darkseid would be shown at the very end after Steppenwolf was dead... to lead to his Justice League 2. So yeah, Snyder's original vision didn't have an ending, it's one of the many reasons that even if the mythical Snyder Cut ever surfaces it's not going to solve any problems.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 10, 2020 23:11:45 GMT -5
Justice League would have worked with all the characters there if you'd done it sort of like the first X-men, where the team was all set up and you had an audience POV character joining ala Wolverine in that first movie. That's a case where putting Cyborg in would actually be a great fit as he's new to all of this so both on a story and meta level it works. Failing that, Wally would work as that entry point character as well. Thing is you'd have had to fundamentally gone about the whole enterprise differently. The Snyder approach wasn't going to work with that method. Yeah, if they HAD to rush it... making that isnt impossible... hell it's probably EASIER than Marvel. Since nearly half the roster is already super well known or at least known well enough that you don't have to introduce too much. Batman, Superman everyone knows. Wonder Woman is mostly known so maybe throw in a quick scene of the amazons to introduce her... hell you could probably use that scene to introduce Aquaman and Atlantis too. From there add Flash or Cyborg as the new guy joining as the audience proxy... and you can make a movie. It would have been much easier then Marvel. Like Batman doesn't need an origins movie. You could just gave us a movie showing how manic he is in current day and what led him to this mindset which would have set up the Batman vs Superman movie nicely.
Can introduce Wonder Women in Batman vs Superman and Aquaman in the solo Batman movie as a cameo. Flash and Cyborg come in the JL movie and you can do spin offs later
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 23:16:08 GMT -5
Also, like... Using Darkseid was about the dumbest possible overarching villain choice they could have gone with. Yeah, Thanos a lot of the time is kind of a knockoff of him (albeit he sort of drifted in his own direction)... but too bad, Marvel beat you to it. Do something different.
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TWERKIN' MAGGLE
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 10, 2020 23:21:44 GMT -5
What the f*** is up with the DCEU that it makes people lose their minds!? Because these directors, even that edgelord moron Zack Snyder, know that if someone had overseen this like Feige oversaw the MCU and it had been handled right, the DCEU would be just as hot of a franchise. No one was there to tell any of them no or tried to rein them in at all, so we got stupid bullshit instead. And the failure that they presented the public with eats at them. So they waste their time on Twitter trying to deflect from the fact that they had just as big a hand in failing as the studio did.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 10, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5
Also, like... Using Darkseid was about the dumbest possible overarching villain choice they could have gone with. Yeah, Thanos a lot of the time is kind of a knockoff of him (albeit he sort of drifted in his own direction)... but too bad, Marvel beat you to it. Do something different. Yeah, Thanos WAS a rip off of Darkseid...originally Starlin had him look completely different and actually wanted him based more off Metron. But Marvel basically told him you know it'd be cooler if he was more like Darkseid... but yeah... Marvel got to that big bad first. You look like you are playing catch up (and DC clearly was trying to) by going for a villain that is almost exactly the same as your biggest competitor's.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 10, 2020 23:34:29 GMT -5
Also, like... Using Darkseid was about the dumbest possible overarching villain choice they could have gone with. Yeah, Thanos a lot of the time is kind of a knockoff of him (albeit he sort of drifted in his own direction)... but too bad, Marvel beat you to it. Do something different. Yeah, Thanos WAS a rip off of Darkseid...originally Starlin had him look completely different and actually wanted him based more off Metron. But Marvel basically told him you know it'd be cooler if he was more like Darkseid... but yeah... Marvel got to that big bad first. You look like you are playing catch up (and DC clearly was trying to) by going for a villain that is almost exactly the same as your biggest competitor's. I mean Darkseid makes sense since you could stretched that out beating people like Granny Goodness but since Marvel beat them to it, they should just pivot in the first place Like i'm going to keep hammering this home because I think if built right they could legit had a full Green Lantern arc. Like Marvel with the way they have treated characters and how many important characters died, they could have their own equivalent of Darkest Night Darkest Night in a DC Universe would been dope but it would had to been earned.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 10, 2020 23:37:35 GMT -5
Also, like... Using Darkseid was about the dumbest possible overarching villain choice they could have gone with. Yeah, Thanos a lot of the time is kind of a knockoff of him (albeit he sort of drifted in his own direction)... but too bad, Marvel beat you to it. Do something different. Yeah, Thanos WAS a rip off of Darkseid...originally Starlin had him look completely different and actually wanted him based more off Metron. But Marvel basically told him you know it'd be cooler if he was more like Darkseid... but yeah... Marvel got to that big bad first. You look like you are playing catch up (and DC clearly was trying to) by going for a villain that is almost exactly the same as your biggest competitor's. I didn't even care that the plan was Darkseid, go for it. Just make something entertaining that doesn't bastardize the greatest collection of comic superheroes. Just don't present me overly dark garbage and call it a "deconstruction".
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Post by Cyno on May 10, 2020 23:41:04 GMT -5
Darkseid is a great villain, but yeah, Thanos is similar enough to him where it Marvel beating them to the punch. It makes DCEU look like it's ripping off the MCU even though Darkseid was created first (and Marvel wanted him to be something of a knockoff of Darkseid). I still say the one area where DC could've really differentiated itself from Marvel for a Justice League movie is instead of a single bad guy the JL has to team up to fight, make it the Legion of Doom. A whole squad of the worst villains in the universe that makes the heroes join forces to take them down. Only thing is that you'd have to establish all the characters and their villains first and as we saw, WB wanted to have its cake and eat it, too. They wanted a cinematic universe without the work put in to build it up.
I also think trying to salvage Green Lantern on film would do a lot for them to expand their horizons. The Sinestro Corps, Manhunters, or Red Lanterns on their own would make for good villains for a team-up threat. Not to mention they could adapt Blackest Night eventually.
Then there's the Anti-Monitor, but WB/DC had enough troubles establishing a single cinematic universe without messing it up. I can't imagine what it'd be like if they had to establish something as complex as a multiverse.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 10, 2020 23:41:06 GMT -5
Yeah, Thanos WAS a rip off of Darkseid...originally Starlin had him look completely different and actually wanted him based more off Metron. But Marvel basically told him you know it'd be cooler if he was more like Darkseid... but yeah... Marvel got to that big bad first. You look like you are playing catch up (and DC clearly was trying to) by going for a villain that is almost exactly the same as your biggest competitor's. I didn't even care that the plan was Darkseid, go for it. Just make something entertaining that doesn't bastardize the greatest collection of comic superheroes. Just don't present me overly dark garbage and call it a "deconstruction". Honestly, not like you needed some big bad in the first place Build up the rogues gallery from your superheroes on screen, Deathstroke was coming so make him a big f***ing deal, after a while you can do a makeshift League of Doom for a JL movie and then you go from there They could went a few movies without a big overarching villain presence
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 10, 2020 23:41:42 GMT -5
Darkseid is a great villain, but yeah, Thanos is similar enough to him where it Marvel beating them to the punch. It makes DCEU look like it's ripping off the MCU even though Darkseid was created first (and Marvel wanted him to be something of a knockoff of Darkseid). I still say the one area where DC could've really differentiated itself from Marvel for a Justice League movie is instead of a single bad guy the JL has to team up to fight, make it the Legion of Doom. A whole squad of the worst villains in the universe that makes the heroes join forces to take them down. Only thing is that you'd have to establish all the characters and their villains first and as we saw, WB wanted to have its cake and eat it, too. They wanted a cinematic universe without the work put in to build it up. I just typed that We was thinking the same thing
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 10, 2020 23:58:36 GMT -5
Really even villain aside. There's three core mistakes that tanked the DCEU.
1. Studio wanted a crossover before they built a universe to warrant a crossover.
2. Zack Snyder wanted to make deconstructions of the iconic characters, which doesn't f***ing work for a cinematic universe.
3. They hired Geoff Johns to oversee the DCEU, after it was already irrevocably damaged.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 0:02:13 GMT -5
Steering things a bit more back toward Suicide Squad, I think the worst scene in the movie is the bar one. Not like there's a shortage of competition, but it's so stupid having this gang of killers who've done nothing but bicker the entire movie just suddenly go, "Awww, we're a family!" It's a terrible scene on the face of it, it's even worse in context, and it basically completely misunderstands the appeal of the concept.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 11, 2020 0:05:35 GMT -5
I'll say this though.
If you can't have C.C.H Pounder play Amanda Waller in real life, Viola Davis is the very next person who should be on the list. She was fantastic.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 0:07:47 GMT -5
I'll say this though. If you can't have C.C.H Pounder play Amanda Waller in real life, Viola Davis is the very next person who should be on the list. She was fantastic. She was very good in the role, though do think Waller's written pretty out of character. I don't think she'd put up with nearly as much from the group as she does in the movie.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 11, 2020 0:25:46 GMT -5
Really even villain aside. There's three core mistakes that tanked the DCEU. 1. Studio wanted a crossover before they built a universe to warrant a crossover. 2. Zack Snyder wanted to make deconstructions of the iconic characters, which doesn't f***ing work for a cinematic universe. 3. They hired Geoff Johns to oversee the DCEU, after it was already irrevocably damaged. if Johns was put in the position (or literally anyone) before Man of Steel or Batman V Superman they'd have been in much better shape... and Snyder would probably have left earlier >_> Which I think the Hulk would have a say on this >->
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 11, 2020 0:56:08 GMT -5
I'll say this though. If you can't have C.C.H Pounder play Amanda Waller in real life, Viola Davis is the very next person who should be on the list. She was fantastic. She was very good in the role, though do think Waller's written pretty out of character. I don't think she'd put up with nearly as much from the group as she does in the movie. Yea, that's one of them things where they should had someone to kill early I think they did in the Suicide Squad animated movie where someone tried to run and she blew his head off
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 11, 2020 1:00:06 GMT -5
She was very good in the role, though do think Waller's written pretty out of character. I don't think she'd put up with nearly as much from the group as she does in the movie. Yea, that's one of them things where they should had someone to kill early I think they did in the Suicide Squad animated movie where someone tried to run and she blew his head off there were two Suicide Animated movies I think. Assault on Arkham and Hell to Pay. I believe that scene was in Assault on Arkham where KGBeast says Waller is bluffing and is instantly killed.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 11, 2020 1:01:09 GMT -5
Yea, that's one of them things where they should had someone to kill early I think they did in the Suicide Squad animated movie where someone tried to run and she blew his head off there were two Suicide Animated movies I think. Assault on Arkham and Hell to Pay. Assault on Arkham is the one i'm thinking of then I remember that being good
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 11, 2020 1:04:45 GMT -5
Yeah, Hell to pay is an adpatation of a Secret Six storyline about the Get out of Hell Free card.
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