|
Post by Chairman of the Board on Jul 27, 2020 5:35:02 GMT -5
My opinion is when they showed up on Raw. They were an alternative, but then just became another tool of the WWE. I think with Paul E taking money from Vince, and all the associations between the E and Paul, and the momentary popularity of the shows, helped Vince understand that copying the ECW formula, helping to create the attitude era, eventually led to ECW dying. It took a year or two, but by 99 all the lost talent and ideas, had rendered ECW kind of old news. Even the TV show was just a way for Vince to test the waters of a move to Viacom. At the time though it seriously helped ECW. That RAW/ECW episode was huge exposure right before Barelt Legal. As a fan at the time it felt more like it gave ECW legitimacy. Timeline-wise Raven was on the show, worked Barely Legal and left for WCW in a month or two. The Attitude Era was coming either way. Bret/Austin Wrestlemania 13 was amazing when it happened and that didn’t hinge on ECW. So long story short I think that ECW invading RAW was paramount ECW blowing up from 97-99
|
|
lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,789
|
Post by lucas_lee on Jul 27, 2020 5:43:40 GMT -5
Letting a fat teenager wrestle a hardcore match against New Jack? This one is a tough one for me. The dwarf wrestler should never have vouched for Mass Transit and Paul E. being a grifter himself shouldve seen a lit coming a mile away
|
|
|
Post by Chairman of the Board on Jul 27, 2020 5:50:50 GMT -5
Letting a fat teenager wrestle a hardcore match against New Jack? This one is a tough one for me. The dwarf wrestler should never have vouched for Mass Transit and Paul E. being a grifter himself shouldve seen a lit coming a mile away But was it ECWs “biggest” booking mistake? Remember at the time it was a popular tape to trade for or buy off RFVideo. It was a mistake but ECWs biggest successes came after that. If anything from a fan perspective it legitimized New Jack as a scary guy.
|
|
lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,789
|
Post by lucas_lee on Jul 27, 2020 5:52:02 GMT -5
This one is a tough one for me. The dwarf wrestler should never have vouched for Mass Transit and Paul E. being a grifter himself shouldve seen a lit coming a mile away But was it ECWs “biggest” booking mistake? Remember at the time it was a popular tape to trade for or buy off RFVideo. It was a mistake but ECWs biggest successes came after that. If anything from a fan perspective it legitimized New Jack as a scary guy. I dont view it as a mistake. I view Paul E's booking during the TNN era as his biggest mistake
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Jul 27, 2020 8:33:13 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan.
|
|
H-Virus
Hank Scorpio
A Real Contagious Experience
Posts: 5,966
|
Post by H-Virus on Jul 27, 2020 8:53:24 GMT -5
This one is a tough one for me. The dwarf wrestler should never have vouched for Mass Transit and Paul E. being a grifter himself shouldve seen a lit coming a mile away But was it ECWs “biggest” booking mistake? Remember at the time it was a popular tape to trade for or buy off RFVideo. It was a mistake but ECWs biggest successes came after that. If anything from a fan perspective it legitimized New Jack as a scary guy. If I recall correctly, the ‘Mass Transit Incident’ almost caused ECWs very first payperview to be cancelled, and the only reason it wasn’t was because of the massive outcry from the fans. If it had been canceled, I imagine it would have been a crushing blow to the company, and might have made networks reluctant to ever give them a chance again.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 27, 2020 9:01:42 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan. I agree with this completely. This kind of booking worked when ECW was a regional indy with a cult following, but once you start talking about things like regular PPV's and national television delays and toy lines, you can't run a company like that. The fact that Heyman insisted on running the company in 1998-2000 the same way he ran the show in 1994-1995 did a ton of damage. A Mom'n'Pop store might be able to survive with just a middle aged couple running the place and the neighbor boy coming in twice a week to stock the shelves, but you can't run a Walmart like that.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 27, 2020 13:07:31 GMT -5
"Hey Scott let's go crucify Jim in front of a bunch of Catholic people, it'll be a gas!" - Paul Heyman, probably.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 27, 2020 13:13:47 GMT -5
"Hey Scott let's go crucify Jim in front of a bunch of Catholic people, it'll be a gas!" - Paul Heyman, probably. Don't forget, that was presumably followed by "Oh hey Kurt, thanks for coming tonight. Nice Olympic Gold Medal".
|
|
msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,485
|
Post by msc on Jul 27, 2020 14:10:46 GMT -5
Going for a less serious one, they had Rhino's reign of terror ended by Kid Kash in a great moment when every single person Rhino had picked on comeback one at a time to get revenge.
Then Rhino won the TV title back about 3 days later. Talk about ruining a moment.
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 27, 2020 14:15:19 GMT -5
Going for a less serious one, they had Rhino's reign of terror ended by Kid Kash in a great moment when every single person Rhino had picked on comeback one at a time to get revenge. Then Rhino won the TV title back about 3 days later. Talk about ruining a moment. I hated how Heyman kept pushing Rhino as "the next Taz", completely ignoring that Taz and Rhino had completely different strengths and weaknesses and that Rhino was way too green to carry a company like that.
|
|
|
Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jul 27, 2020 15:43:11 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan. It's not an easy task to have "long term booking" in a company where you don't know which of the guys are going to be working for you in two weeks. That's not meant to be a "yeah, Heyman should've paid them a bunch more money he didn't have, then maybe they would've stuck around." It's meant to be a reminder of reality. Especially in ECW's situation. You can't long term plan a wrestling show (or a television show, or a soap opera, or anything with an ongoing story) when the players can leave (and were leaving) on a moment's notice. You can only do what's possible on a given night, and do the best show you can with who is available. It’s very similar to the spot Impact is in now. You can try and have long term plans, but you should always have contingency plans in your back pocket ready to go at a moments notice. That being said, it was pretty damn annoying that they’d only announce a couple PPV matches in advance half the time. A lot of PPV’s you were buying half blind, kinda like WWE seems to love doing with their TV shows now. GIVE US A F***ING CARD!!
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 27, 2020 15:54:37 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan. It's not an easy task to have "long term booking" in a company where you don't know which of the guys are going to be working for you in two weeks. That's not meant to be a "yeah, Heyman should've paid them a bunch more money he didn't have, then maybe they would've stuck around." It's meant to be a reminder of reality. Especially in ECW's situation. You can't long term plan a wrestling show (or a television show, or a soap opera, or anything with an ongoing story) when the players can leave (and were leaving) on a moment's notice. You can only do what's possible on a given night, and do the best show you can with who is available. Being fairly sure of what your roster is gonna look like in 2 weeks/2 months down the road is a basic tenet of running a major pro wrestling company. It's the difference between a national promotion and a regional indy. If he absolutely, positively could not guarantee these people were still gonna be around for the big shows then we just have another reason as to why he should've drastically scaled back his operation.
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 27, 2020 16:55:43 GMT -5
Biggest booking mistake I'd say is... not making RVD champion the second he came back.
RVD was TV champ for two years, they never booked the champion vs. champion match, but... RVD was back before the end of ECW.
Why not make him champion then? They had him lose to Rhino!
And then made Rhino champion later!
What the f***? And I like Rhino!
|
|
chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,070
|
Post by chazraps on Jul 27, 2020 16:59:00 GMT -5
I know I'm usually in the minority when I say this, but man, Mike Awesome should've never touched that title. Hadn't been with the company in months when he won it, was no where near the main event picture when he was previously with the company, and, other then some vague notion of him losing it to RVD down the line, they had absolutely nothing lined up for him to do while he's champ. It's basically the equivalent of someone like Luke Harper/Brodie Lee managing to get out of his AEW contract and showing up at SummerSlam and winning the WWE Title from McIntyre. Then, because all the actual main eventers are busy with other stuff, he spends the next few months defending against guys who usually only work 205 Live. The massive downturn in quality of ECW's output in 2000 and 2001 can all be traced back to this panic move by Paul Heyman. I stand by Spike Dudley should have beaten him.
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Jul 27, 2020 18:27:43 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan. It's not an easy task to have "long term booking" in a company where you don't know which of the guys are going to be working for you in two weeks. That's not meant to be a "yeah, Heyman should've paid them a bunch more money he didn't have, then maybe they would've stuck around." It's meant to be a reminder of reality. Especially in ECW's situation. You can't long term plan a wrestling show (or a television show, or a soap opera, or anything with an ongoing story) when the players can leave (and were leaving) on a moment's notice. You can only do what's possible on a given night, and do the best show you can with who is available. That's fair enough, but you can tell watching a lot of these shows back now that things were being booked on the fly as shows were happening in some cases. I was a huge ECW fan in my youth and I still credit them with being the source of a lot of the things I love in wrestling, but that chaotic booking style has not aged well.
|
|
|
Post by Chairman of the Board on Jul 28, 2020 6:32:09 GMT -5
I think the answer is the ad hoc nature of the booking in general to be honest rather than any one thing. The old story of Paul E booking shows by seeing who was in the locker room that afternoon/evening is a fun, wacky anecdote to describe the nature of ECW but is also the companies biggest indictment creatively. With hindsight on our sides, it's easy to see how little long term planning there was with a lot of stuff not to mention a lack of an endgame. Most storylines and angles (with the odd exception) were throw it at a wall and see what sticks. This worked more than it should have done, which is perhaps testament to Paul E's ability to book on the fly, but it isn't a long term game plan. It's not an easy task to have "long term booking" in a company where you don't know which of the guys are going to be working for you in two weeks. That's not meant to be a "yeah, Heyman should've paid them a bunch more money he didn't have, then maybe they would've stuck around." It's meant to be a reminder of reality. Especially in ECW's situation. You can't long term plan a wrestling show (or a television show, or a soap opera, or anything with an ongoing story) when the players can leave (and were leaving) on a moment's notice. You can only do what's possible on a given night, and do the best show you can with who is available. THIS! Hindsight is 20/20. As a fan throughout the 90’s it wasn’t the lack of storylines that hurt ECW on TNN is was the inclusion of the tired “evil boss” network storyline. We already has Vince McMahon and Eric Bischoff. Cyrus was a known entities who suddenly works for TNN. ECW survived lots of people leaving but losing the Dudleys and Taz were huge blows. Then to lose Mike Awesome who filled a huge void was the final nail in the coffin... Heyman’s booking was a symptom of a bigger problem. Let’s be real, WCW overpaid people. I love Sandman, but no way he made WCW what they paid him as Hardcore Hak. There is a reason WCW was shuttered. WWE resisted taking lots of top talent for quite a while, but once ECW went national that changed quickly.
|
|
|
Post by protuberance on Jul 28, 2020 7:50:00 GMT -5
Outside of stuff mentioned, they stuck with Shane Douglas too long when he was injured as world champion. Sure, it gave Taz an ax to grind, but it was still squandering the title. I think this is a big one. He held it from Nov '97 to Jan '99! Shane may have made sense as a champion to the ECW faithful, but he wasn't compelling to the average wrestling fan who might have started taking an interest in ECW during that time.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 28, 2020 9:01:19 GMT -5
I'll be honest, even when he came back from injury Rob looked like he had one foot out the door anyway. I'm not sure Paul could really capitalize on having him back when he was probably about to jump to WCW or WWF.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 28, 2020 11:10:03 GMT -5
It's not an easy task to have "long term booking" in a company where you don't know which of the guys are going to be working for you in two weeks. That's not meant to be a "yeah, Heyman should've paid them a bunch more money he didn't have, then maybe they would've stuck around." It's meant to be a reminder of reality. Especially in ECW's situation. You can't long term plan a wrestling show (or a television show, or a soap opera, or anything with an ongoing story) when the players can leave (and were leaving) on a moment's notice. You can only do what's possible on a given night, and do the best show you can with who is available. It’s very similar to the spot Impact is in now. You can try and have long term plans, but you should always have contingency plans in your back pocket ready to go at a moments notice. That being said, it was pretty damn annoying that they’d only announce a couple PPV matches in advance half the time. A lot of PPV’s you were buying half blind, kinda like WWE seems to love doing with their TV shows now. GIVE US A F***ING CARD!! Big difference of course being Impact has contracts written by a legal team. A lot of times ECW wrestlers either had hand shake agreements. I think it was Lance Storm (maybe someone else cannot remember) that stated they reviewed a contract Paul gave them and actually had a lawyer look at it and said they would be an idiot to sign it (lot of typos, put ECW on such a low guarantee that they would make no money, ect)
|
|