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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 4, 2020 13:41:40 GMT -5
Fort what's worth, I think that you need to look at what Maria is saying less as a literal "They don't want to build new stars" and more about what their actual priorities are. It's more that they sit there trying to think abotu how to do something that might get a cool ratings stunt in to make people check them out. WWE wants to make new stars, but their effort isn't being put into that right now, It's about hotshotting random ideas they don't commit to, throwing around big roster changes and panic-booked attempts to keep people interested. It's the issue of how much you really want something if you never put any effort into trying to make it happen. All the "We need stars" in the world doesn't mean shit if all you do is throw shit out with no commitment or sense to it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 13:50:30 GMT -5
They want to but they have absolutely no idea how to appeal to a big part of their fanbase so most stuff they do doesn’t connect.
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Post by lildude8218 on Aug 4, 2020 14:10:33 GMT -5
Maria is so bitter that Mike's bland ass would die if he tasted her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 14:15:23 GMT -5
They do, but they don't want them to get too big.
When they get TOO big, they leave the WWE and they have leverage to charge a king's ransom to come back.
Rock, Austin, Brock, etc.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 4, 2020 14:21:15 GMT -5
The problem with putting the brand before the stars is multi-fold. WWE has become, essentially, _American Gladiators_.
When the talent is that unimportant, interchangeable and expendable, fans have no reason to be invested emotionally in who they're seeing on TV. The creative team has no reason to give their heart and soul in a story arc that'll only be thrown out twenty minutes before airtime. An unimportant, interchangeable and expendable talent can be excused for disengaging from almost anything to do with building the company. To the talent, some of whom have spent over half their lives at this craft, their expendability and lack of importance has either been an insult to the craft and their contributions to it, or an opportunity to milk the company for whatever they can get, in exchange for as little work of consequence as they can get away with. And we as "diehard" IWC fans just cheer on the business news rather than what goes on inside the ring.
Only one force is at fault for this - Vince McMahon. As long as he is in charge and the product is created for him alone, it will continue until it fails utterly.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 4, 2020 14:23:10 GMT -5
They do want to make new stars. They just don't want to give the fans what they want.
Roman could have been so much better if they had turned him. People paid money for years to boo that guy after years of booing Cena. Just turn him and have someone else be a strong babyface???
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Aug 4, 2020 15:49:05 GMT -5
They want to make "new" stars, but that just means slotting another guy they already like into the "heroic badass/wisecracking jokester who always wins" spot they'd already been writing for until the last one escaped their cult. From a creative perspective, the core purpose of the entire WWE product is to entertain Vince McMahon, and Vince McMahon likes it the way it is, so any necessity-forced innovation has to be as uninnovative as possible. Responding organically to fan reactions or trends in pop culture or even just writing around the strengths and weaknesses of their own performers to present them in the best light is all an unwelcome chore that'll probably end with somebody else in creative getting fired, because it runs the risk of not entertaining Vince McMahon.
It worked as long as they had the inertia and brand recognition to hold onto their monopoly on the industry. Now that there's a competitor with enough money and promotion behind them to get eyes on their product who's actually trying to put on a competent show, things are different.
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ssdrivin
ALF
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Post by ssdrivin on Aug 4, 2020 16:31:17 GMT -5
Do they necessarily need to actively build stars in that specific "this is our top guy, he will be famous" way?
I mean, would it not be good enough (at least just for starters) to just not stifle people who are getting over? Especially faces. If someone's naturally creating a rapport with and respect from the fans, getting cheered and chanted for, just... let them keep being what they're being and see where it goes? That, instead of "wait, we didn't pick you, stop being good" or "oh really? well, if people like you, they'll like you even better when we repackage you". Just let it ride. It's especially applicable to faces, because if you wanna keep churning out terrible boring chickenshit WWE heels the way they like to do, having the organically-liked face overcome the dull, boring, generic, stale, typical WWE heel is probably what people will be wanting to see.
Just... don't take the face everybody likes and subject them to a 2 month long devastating onslaught from the bland, overplayed heels and leave the wrestler's character decimated and the audience unfulfilled. It's not that hard, is it?
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Post by Texas Tornado on Aug 4, 2020 16:59:51 GMT -5
Maria is so bitter that Mike's bland ass would die if he tasted her. As true as that might be; her point is pretty spot on. Especially with all the crap that they tried to pull out on Raw this week.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 4, 2020 17:52:41 GMT -5
Outside of NXT, WWE has no idea how to book things long-term and that hurts with getting people over as new stars. They tend to book with a vague goal in mind by a deadline (big match at Wrestlemania, for instance) but completely fall apart at writing a logical, long-term storyline that builds up to that point. Oftentimes, their idea of "long-term booking" is to either abandon the thing 2 weeks in because Vince McMahon has the attention span of a toddler. Or they're just put in a holding pattern until people forget about it (see: Sasha/Bayley).
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Post by romanstylesiii on Aug 4, 2020 20:30:10 GMT -5
It doesn’t seem like they do, no. Like, even the people they DO want to build, yeah, they give them credibility but then they have them do something that makes them lesser to fans like apologizing to authority figures (Becky, Kevin Owens) or being total dicks to those around them (also Becky). Even with Roman, they would take away any kind of momentum by having him do something really dumb. Remember how great the “This is my yard now” promo was? And remember the follow up being about to apologize for it before Braun killed him and the ambulance he was in? Good example, that I wanted to add to. Austin, Rock, HHH, Angle, HBK, Bret never talked about how great the previous generation was. They would usually go over when dealing with them. Current day WWE you see the old guys go over EVERY TIME. Braun and Seth Rollins telling Austin how great he was a few months ago was just weird. When did you ever see Stone Cold come out and tell everyone how great Bob Backlund was?? Or the fact that DX goes over on everyone every time. You know they could really put someone over if they wanted.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 4, 2020 21:19:40 GMT -5
Fort what's worth, I think that you need to look at what Maria is saying less as a literal "They don't want to build new stars" and more about what their actual priorities are. It's more that they sit there trying to think abotu how to do something that might get a cool ratings stunt in to make people check them out. WWE wants to make new stars, but their effort isn't being put into that right now, It's about hotshotting random ideas they don't commit to, throwing around big roster changes and panic-booked attempts to keep people interested. It's the issue of how much you really want something if you never put any effort into trying to make it happen. All the "We need stars" in the world doesn't mean shit if all you do is throw shit out with no commitment or sense to it. Fair point. I know Alvarez made the point before too with NXT where they have tried hotshotting big matches to get a rating against AEW but it doesn't have sustainability. And to go with the NXT part of the equation. They rushed the Keith Lee/Adam Cole match for a rating pop when they could have easily stretched it to the next Takeover... and in doing that they could also build up Kross more too. Instead you hotshot the Keith Lee coronation to get a good rating but now you have a very uneven roster with a match between Lee and Kross just not having the heat it would have likely had for Survivor Series or Royal Rumble Takeover time. I think what they have done with Drew shows they absolutely can make a likable top baby face but the hits are very few and far betwe4n for a variety of reasons... Hell Impact brought in an ice cold Eric Young with no hype and got him a decent amount of heat in 3 weeks against Rich Swann of all people
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,738
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 4, 2020 22:01:09 GMT -5
The largest conglomeration of in-ring talent ever assembled by WWE, and in under five years Vince has buried it, shoved it down the card until it could barely make it on TV anymore, made it look like chumps against 30-year veterans who can't go anymore, then either sent home to spend their downside or released.
Vince might well want to make new stars, but he's poisoned the well of prospective talent by doing what he's done the last three years. I said last year that most wrestlers will take half the money WWE is offering to work with more creative freedom in AEW. Given the number of WWE releases now working for Impact, I'd suggest WWE's offers better get much better in signing and renewing contracts. Even then, the whole place is starting to reek of latter-day WCW; nobody cares about the booking so long as the checks keep coming in.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 4, 2020 22:08:09 GMT -5
Fort what's worth, I think that you need to look at what Maria is saying less as a literal "They don't want to build new stars" and more about what their actual priorities are. It's more that they sit there trying to think abotu how to do something that might get a cool ratings stunt in to make people check them out. WWE wants to make new stars, but their effort isn't being put into that right now, It's about hotshotting random ideas they don't commit to, throwing around big roster changes and panic-booked attempts to keep people interested. It's the issue of how much you really want something if you never put any effort into trying to make it happen. All the "We need stars" in the world doesn't mean shit if all you do is throw shit out with no commitment or sense to it. Yeah, they absolutely want to build new stars... but they don't want to put the effort into doing it. They want quick fixes and ratings boosts. It's basically the same problem that DC has had with their movies. They want it and they want it NOW... they don't want to do the prep work or build... they just want the results, and you can't do that.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 4, 2020 22:17:46 GMT -5
and on top of everything else they have no one else to blame but themselves for the situation they were in... for years the crowds were white hot for people they didn't do shit with... because they weren't the ones they ORDAINED as big deals.
Even some that still had good runs in the company like Dean Ambrose/Moxley... dude was the clear crowd favorite coming out of the Shield break up... and they did everything in their power to state that isn't who the crowd wanted they wanted Roman!
Ziggler as much as I have never liked him got massively over on at least 2 occasions and they never did shit with him.
Finn Balor who they started doing something with when he got injured after winning the Universal title... came back and then had him do like nothing... and he was still over... and they ultimately sacrificed him at the alter of Brock.
Braun Strowman got over massively with the I'm not finished with you! stuff... and then they never pulled the trigger on him... and he only won the title finally years after the fact because Roman couldn't make Mania.
hell for over a year the Brock vs. Roman mania match was this black cloud hanging over everything because literally no one else was allowed to get any momentum... either Brock killed them dead or Roman kiled them dead... or BOTH...
and even then they couldn't even pull the trigger to have Roman win... they waited for months to do it and he only won due to Brock being distracted... I'm sure it was because Vince was sure that the fans would eventually come around on Roman... but they didn't nor were they ever going to the continued way they were pushing him... especially with teh hilariously tone deaf "Brock gets special privileges and is Vince's boy" stuff.
That said they have done at least a good job with building up Drew... but... one person doesn't make a company. He needs competition that looks competent.
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 4, 2020 22:21:55 GMT -5
I think it goes deeper than this post. I mean she's of course right that WWE just does hotshot booking to pop 2 weeks of ratings to please investors and networks, but it runs deeper. I have felt for a while that there's a big time disconnect with the talent HHH and Canyon Ceman sign and what Vince actually wants to push. Even weirder there seems to be a massive disconnect between WWE's own corporate dealings and political leanings and their actual onscreen product. It's really weird.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 4, 2020 22:42:28 GMT -5
Fort what's worth, I think that you need to look at what Maria is saying less as a literal "They don't want to build new stars" and more about what their actual priorities are. It's more that they sit there trying to think abotu how to do something that might get a cool ratings stunt in to make people check them out. WWE wants to make new stars, but their effort isn't being put into that right now, It's about hotshotting random ideas they don't commit to, throwing around big roster changes and panic-booked attempts to keep people interested. It's the issue of how much you really want something if you never put any effort into trying to make it happen. All the "We need stars" in the world doesn't mean shit if all you do is throw shit out with no commitment or sense to it. Fair point. I know Alvarez made the point before too with NXT where they have tried hotshotting big matches to get a rating against AEW but it doesn't have sustainability. And to go with the NXT part of the equation. They rushed the Keith Lee/Adam Cole match for a rating pop when they could have easily stretched it to the next Takeover... and in doing that they could also build up Kross more too. Instead you hotshot the Keith Lee coronation to get a good rating but now you have a very uneven roster with a match between Lee and Kross just not having the heat it would have likely had for Survivor Series or Royal Rumble Takeover time. I think what they have done with Drew shows they absolutely can make a likable top baby face but the hits are very few and far betwe4n for a variety of reasons... Hell Impact brought in an ice cold Eric Young with no hype and got him a decent amount of heat in 3 weeks against Rich Swann of all people I love Keith Lee, but having him become the unified NXT Champion and North American Champion only for him to unceremoniously drop the NA Title a couple of weeks later reeked of them booking themselves into a corner. Like they hotshot him to the NXT Championship without having an exit strategy for him losing the NA Title. It cheapened the accomplishment of him being dual champion IMO. At least if Regal or even Triple H forced him to drop the NA title, it would've made him look like he wanted to be a fighting champion but had to drop one on a technicality.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 4, 2020 22:47:10 GMT -5
Hard to miss hitting the world's largest nail on the head.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 4, 2020 23:11:09 GMT -5
Fair point. I know Alvarez made the point before too with NXT where they have tried hotshotting big matches to get a rating against AEW but it doesn't have sustainability. And to go with the NXT part of the equation. They rushed the Keith Lee/Adam Cole match for a rating pop when they could have easily stretched it to the next Takeover... and in doing that they could also build up Kross more too. Instead you hotshot the Keith Lee coronation to get a good rating but now you have a very uneven roster with a match between Lee and Kross just not having the heat it would have likely had for Survivor Series or Royal Rumble Takeover time. I think what they have done with Drew shows they absolutely can make a likable top baby face but the hits are very few and far betwe4n for a variety of reasons... Hell Impact brought in an ice cold Eric Young with no hype and got him a decent amount of heat in 3 weeks against Rich Swann of all people I love Keith Lee, but having him become the unified NXT Champion and North American Champion only for him to unceremoniously drop the NA Title a couple of weeks later reeked of them booking themselves into a corner. Like they hotshot him to the NXT Championship without having an exit strategy for him losing the NA Title. It cheapened the accomplishment of him being dual champion IMO. At least if Regal or even Triple H forced him to drop the NA title, it would've made him look like he wanted to be a fighting champion but had to drop one on a technicality. I mean dropping the none world title is more or less the precedence and continuity keeping outcome of those type of outcomes. If someone wins two singles titles that are not both world titles the lesser one gets vacated... it's pretty much been the case since Warrior/Hogan... and that has been pretty much one of the few rules the WWE has stuck with... except the one time with Seth ... but in that case it was the opposite way... the World Champion won the United States championship not vice versa...
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 5, 2020 12:33:17 GMT -5
They want "WWE" to be the star, rather than individual wrestlers.
Wrestling doesn't work that way.
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