Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,981
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Post by Legion on Aug 5, 2020 15:08:08 GMT -5
Yes, I think they do.
However, they have several problems:
- Shareholders dont care. They want money, they want it now, and established/part time stars means money now. Vince has a responsibility to make that money
- They are top heavy already because lots of older stars are still around. To build the new stars, you'd have to have them beat the old stars. If they then fail to get over and make money, you've hurt your established money makers for no reason
- Fan opinion is against them almost totally now. Through their business practices and anti-Vince sentiment running wild, now anything they try is attacked before it even happens which may make them gun shy keeping up something when sentiment is so negative
- It's really hard to know if you are doing anything 'right' at the moment, with no fans to show a reaction (even if you then mask it) and no gates or show merch sales to show levels of interest
- Vince. As much as I may defend the WWE against some of the more cynical board members, and indeed defend Vince for doing what he can to maximise profits because his shareholders will launch legal action if he doesnt, he is clearly a huge creative dead weight at this point
They have an uphill battle to get anything working at the moment, and I think it will likely get worse before it gets better (as much as I have been enjoying things more since WM personally)
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 15,958
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Aug 6, 2020 2:07:10 GMT -5
Yeah. I feel the issues have been more than covered on this board in more ways than a hundred. I know I've put in my .02.
It all comes down to who Vince has to answer to. Whoever he has to answer to is his focus. There's a difference in Vince pushing someone ad nauseum to reach his desired result to make good on a projection he sold someone else on, and let's say Heyman telling Vince he need x amount of time to get someone or some people over. If Vince wanted to properly put people in position to succeed he'd he'd have to want to get out of his own way. The problem is his way is the only thing he trust. It's written over everything he involves himself in. If anything you get a short leash once like HHH has. But we see what's happening to NXT and when someone gets called up. And we see what happens whenever HHH would involve himself in past angles. It's always 1 step forward, 2 steps back. They've betrayed people's trust for far too long. Let me stop rambling.
And the thing with Cena not turning heel and them not wanting to turn Roman heel. After Hogan turned heel at the bash, nobody is above turning heel.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Aug 6, 2020 2:17:53 GMT -5
I used to think that WWE purposely didn't want stars to get over because they didn't want anyone to be bigger than the brand. Now I genuinely don't think they even know how to anymore.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Aug 6, 2020 3:28:25 GMT -5
One more hot take: The dichtonomy of Cena spending a decade utterly loathed by the most dedicated and vocal segment of their audience while still drawing more than enough interest and merch sales to justify his spot utterly destroyed them. Ten years wasted squandering their roster and letting their product atrophy because they had a crutch who was able to keep the money rolling in despite rather than because of creative's efforts. All their bad booking habits went unchecked and grew ever more deeply ingrained, to the point we're at now, where they know things have gone horribly wrong and they need to dig themselves out of this hole, but they've no idea where to even begin.
"WWE should've listened to the smarks", you'll say, but f*** that, they listened to us too much. They listened to every dork on the internet railing that John Cena was a shallow, corporate-manufactured act and those women/children/casuals buying his t-shirts would be just as strongly behind anybody who was so heavily featured and always won, and the morons in Titan Towers actually BELIEVED IT. They bought their own hype that boos and cheers don't matter and their slick machine could churn out a new megastar whenever the last one dropped, and so they squandered another half of a decade in baffled disbelief that Roman Reigns wasn't drawing like Cena despite being booked just as incompetently, and they had no ideas except to keep doing the exact same thing year after year. Luger lasted six months before they bit the bullet and gave up on him for the boring workrate guy who couldn't talk but who was still a step up; this century, it's been five years of every potential lifeline they could've had thrown under the wheels of the Noveau Lex Express, and I'm not convinced they wouldn't still be driving it if Roman hadn't decided surviving the pandemic while immunocompromised was a higher priority than providing spank material for a crazy old man.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Aug 6, 2020 3:31:04 GMT -5
I don’t think they care because for every one person in the IWC criticizing their product there’s twenty people buying merch and tickets to shows.
They still make bank.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Aug 6, 2020 4:03:24 GMT -5
I don’t think they care because for every one person in the IWC criticizing their product there’s twenty people buying merch and tickets to shows. They still make bank. Except they're not. Even before the pandemic, WWEs attendances for house shows & live events were falling. The reason they 'make bank' is from the TV deals, which is why they've been so profitable at a time when not a single fan has been in attendance. And that's the reason why the record low ratings are such a problem. Because when those deals are due, the TV companies aren't going to want to offer them the same kind of money. Assuming the marks will always watch or pay is a delusion - Raw was doing better numbers in the mid '90s, and they came very close to the wall back then.
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Post by mrtuesday on Aug 6, 2020 7:04:45 GMT -5
I don’t think they care because for every one person in the IWC criticizing their product there’s twenty people buying merch and tickets to shows. They still make bank. Except they're not. Even before the pandemic, WWEs attendances for house shows & live events were falling. The reason they 'make bank' is from the TV deals, which is why they've been so profitable at a time when not a single fan has been in attendance. And that's the reason why the record low ratings are such a problem. Because when those deals are due, the TV companies aren't going to want to offer them the same kind of money. Assuming the marks will always watch or pay is a delusion - Raw was doing better numbers in the mid '90s, and they came very close to the wall back then. Raw is still one of the most watched shows on the USA network, even with it's record low ratings. And still in the top 5 watched cable-exclusive shows on Mondays. SmackDown is also top 5 network shows on Fridays. Even with a shrinking audience, they're still in the running. But that has more to say with the state of TV than anything else. WWE can still ask for a big contract by saying their one the network's most watched shows.
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Post by Z-A Sandbaggin' Son of a b!%@h on Aug 6, 2020 11:00:17 GMT -5
Hard to create stars with no crowds. Like you can’t know what people liked or disliked or see what kinda response they are getting to know who and how to push. Honestly if they are looming to the internet to see reactions and basing it off that then theyre shooting themselves in the foot because there is so much negativity. Who knows if the Drew experiment would be doing great or horrible. The lack of crowds on a crowd centered source of entertainment is damning and really they gotta do what they gotta do to get through this and then start rebuilding.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Aug 6, 2020 14:33:13 GMT -5
Raw is still one of the most watched shows on the USA network, even with it's record low ratings. And still in the top 5 watched cable-exclusive shows on Mondays. SmackDown is also top 5 network shows on Fridays. Even with a shrinking audience, they're still in the running. But that has more to say with the state of TV than anything else. WWE can still ask for a big contract by saying their one the network's most watched shows. I'm not trying to come across as 'the end is nigh!' or anything, but this notion of indestructibility that WWE seems to have is odd to me. Maybe it's because I remember clearly when WCW went under, and how impossible that seemed even at the time. "We'll always have TV!" they used to say, because Uncle Ted owned the network. Even as the ratings sank (and they are better than Raw's are now), they were still higher than most other shows on the network. Even in the dolldrums of 2000, they still had very successful tours of the UK & Australia. But none of it mattered in the end, because a TV executive decided that wrestling wasn't what they wanted. Didn't matter about the history of the company, or how 'big' it was, or the fact that American wrestling was in it's biggest boom period ever. And that's where WWE is at. Their audience is dwindling, but their TV deals are making them bank. But they are at the mercy of the whims of the boardroom execs, or the Saudi Prince. If they suddenly change course, squealing that their ratings are relatively decent won't help them. It would be a disaster if it happened, for wrestling as a whole. But we've seen it before - don't act like it can't happen again. The audience won't "always" be there, despite what Triple H says in his promos.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,270
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2020 15:07:54 GMT -5
Yes, I think they do. However, they have several problems: - Shareholders dont care. They want money, they want it now, and established/part time stars means money now. Vince has a responsibility to make that money - They are top heavy already because lots of older stars are still around. To build the new stars, you'd have to have them beat the old stars. If they then fail to get over and make money, you've hurt your established money makers for no reason - Fan opinion is against them almost totally now. Through their business practices and anti-Vince sentiment running wild, now anything they try is attacked before it even happens which may make them gun shy keeping up something when sentiment is so negative - It's really hard to know if you are doing anything 'right' at the moment, with no fans to show a reaction (even if you then mask it) and no gates or show merch sales to show levels of interest - Vince. As much as I may defend the WWE against some of the more cynical board members, and indeed defend Vince for doing what he can to maximise profits because his shareholders will launch legal action if he doesnt, he is clearly a huge creative dead weight at this point They have an uphill battle to get anything working at the moment, and I think it will likely get worse before it gets better (as much as I have been enjoying things more since WM personally) Dude... can you run for president of the IWC? Objective, fair, and crystal clear analysis.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,270
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2020 15:14:47 GMT -5
Raw is still one of the most watched shows on the USA network, even with it's record low ratings. And still in the top 5 watched cable-exclusive shows on Mondays. SmackDown is also top 5 network shows on Fridays. Even with a shrinking audience, they're still in the running. But that has more to say with the state of TV than anything else. WWE can still ask for a big contract by saying their one the network's most watched shows. I'm not trying to come across as 'the end is nigh!' or anything, but this notion of indestructibility that WWE seems to have is odd to me. Maybe it's because I remember clearly when WCW went under, and how impossible that seemed even at the time. "We'll always have TV!" they used to say, because Uncle Ted owned the network. Even as the ratings sank (and they are better than Raw's are now), they were still higher than most other shows on the network. Even in the dolldrums of 2000, they still had very successful tours of the UK & Australia. But none of it mattered in the end, because a TV executive decided that wrestling wasn't what they wanted. Didn't matter about the history of the company, or how 'big' it was, or the fact that American wrestling was in it's biggest boom period ever. And that's where WWE is at. Their audience is dwindling, but their TV deals are making them bank. But they are at the mercy of the whims of the boardroom execs, or the Saudi Prince. If they suddenly change course, squealing that their ratings are relatively decent won't help them. It would be a disaster if it happened, for wrestling as a whole. But we've seen it before - don't act like it can't happen again. The audience won't "always" be there, despite what Triple H says in his promos. Thing is WWE and WCW were/are completely differently. At the risk of sounding ignorant, Ted Turner was a silent financier. It wasn’t his baby, and at the end of the day, could have taken it or left it. McMahons consider WWE their baby that most definitely will not leave it.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Aug 6, 2020 15:39:24 GMT -5
Thing is WWE and WCW were/are completely differently. At the risk of sounding ignorant, Ted Turner was a silent financier. It wasn’t his baby, and at the end of the day, could have taken it or left it. McMahons consider WWE their baby that most definitely will not leave it. Turner absolutely considered WCW his baby because the ratings helped build the Superstation, which is why he kept it around. And yes, WWE is 100% the McMahon's baby, but they don't own the channel like Turner did.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2020 15:50:57 GMT -5
To the point about shareholders not caring...
A good few were asking about the creative direction at the last shareholders meeting. One asking why Heyman was fired and why numbers haven’t gone to pre-COVID levels on Raw/Smackdown like NXT and AEW have..
The trouble is the money might be there now but we’re getting closer to the point where they’ll have to renegotiate and for as much as USA might be happy, they wouldn’t exactly be blamed for dropping the price a bit depending on how stuff goes.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,981
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Post by Legion on Aug 6, 2020 15:58:56 GMT -5
To the point about shareholders not caring... A good few were asking about the creative direction at the last shareholders meeting. One asking why Heyman was fired and why numbers haven’t gone to pre-COVID levels on Raw/Smackdown like NXT and AEW have.. The trouble is the money might be there now but we’re getting closer to the point where they’ll have to renegotiate and for as much as USA might be happy, they wouldn’t exactly be blamed for dropping the price a bit depending on how stuff goes. Yeah, but tiny minority holders who may be fans thinking it's fun to own some of WWE dont make up the bigger share holders who likely give 0 shits about the creative, dont even watch the program and just want to see the dividends at the end of the year. If some of the people from Lindsell, Black Rock or Vanguard start talking about creative direction, then they have problems, but it isnt their reps asking those questions - yet at least.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 6, 2020 19:43:11 GMT -5
One more hot take: The dichtonomy of Cena spending a decade utterly loathed by the most dedicated and vocal segment of their audience while still drawing more than enough interest and merch sales to justify his spot utterly destroyed them. Ten years wasted squandering their roster and letting their product atrophy because they had a crutch who was able to keep the money rolling in despite rather than because of creative's efforts. All their bad booking habits went unchecked and grew ever more deeply ingrained, to the point we're at now, where they know things have gone horribly wrong and they need to dig themselves out of this hole, but they've no idea where to even begin. "WWE should've listened to the smarks", you'll say, but f*** that, they listened to us too much. They listened to every dork on the internet railing that John Cena was a shallow, corporate-manufactured act and those women/children/casuals buying his t-shirts would be just as strongly behind anybody who was so heavily featured and always won, and the morons in Titan Towers actually BELIEVED IT. They bought their own hype that boos and cheers don't matter and their slick machine could churn out a new megastar whenever the last one dropped, and so they squandered another half of a decade in baffled disbelief that Roman Reigns wasn't drawing like Cena despite being booked just as incompetently, and they had no ideas except to keep doing the exact same thing year after year. Luger lasted six months before they bit the bullet and gave up on him for the boring workrate guy who couldn't talk but who was still a step up; this century, it's been five years of every potential lifeline they could've had thrown under the wheels of the Noveau Lex Express, and I'm not convinced they wouldn't still be driving it if Roman hadn't decided surviving the pandemic while immunocompromised was a higher priority than providing spank material for a crazy old man. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Showcasing a top star and having them win most of the time is *not* “incompetent booking”. That’s what a smart company is supposed to do. WWE needs megastars. All promotions need them. I’d argue the fact they’re so gunshy to give a new star a Cena-level push is a reason they’re in this mess in the first place. Vince would have developed these bad habits regardless of who he put on top post-Attitude, or even how successful they were. He was doing a total victory lap after WCW, and he had to feel like he was untouchable. It had to have been 2001 when his philosophy shifted. It was not 2005.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2020 20:26:50 GMT -5
Here’s what I will say about 2001 being a year in that I think they were aware of how that was going to be and used the first Brand split as a way of getting creativity going again. And, to an extent, it was successful.
Then eventually they got paranoid Smackdown was getting too popular (which...I mean, what a strange thing to be annoyed by) so Heyman was out, Steph was in, then eventually they made it clear Raw was always going to be the better show and the one people would have wanted to go to regardless of how well Smackdown did. Then there was them trying to bring back ECW to mixed success, replacing it with NXT to...mixed success and then, basically, never trying anything truly different again until HHH turner the NXT branding into a development/super indie/third-brand-kind-of hybrid. Which, honestly, was the last innovative thing they really did.
Like, as mentioned before, the tropes have been there since 1996/7, the staging of shows as “unpredictable” was a core of the Attitude Era. The difference being both them and WCW were using it as a way of making people want to tune into the other and the aura was buttered into the shows. The difference being that now, there is no war. There hasn’t been a war for longer than many people have been alive so that feeling for a show and using those tropes is exposed because, well, it makes you look incompetent rather than counter programming.
So I guess 2005 seems like a fair place to put it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 20:31:14 GMT -5
They’ve got the longest reigning NXT champ ever in a feud with a retired punter...so yeah of course they’re trying to create new stars.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Aug 6, 2020 20:32:28 GMT -5
Showcasing a top star and having them win most of the time is *not* “incompetent booking”. Of course. What IS incompetent booking is showcasing a wrestler, having them win most of the time, and expecting that to inherently transform them into a top star without regards to their performing abilities or the reactions of your audience. I mean, FFS, they got Roman cheered beating Sheamus in Philly, when he got to actually look like a badass. A month later, Roman's doing crappy stand-up comedy promos because Cena could pull them off and the mental midgets writing this material aren't capable of comprehending that taking the exact same scripts they'd been handing the last guy won't magically transform Roman into a merch-moving machine on par with his predecessor. And the fans are back to hating his guts.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2020 20:39:28 GMT -5
Showcasing a top star and having them win most of the time is *not* “incompetent booking”. Of course. What IS incompetent booking is showcasing a wrestler, having them win most of the time, and expecting that to inherently transform them into a top star without regards to their performing abilities or the reactions of your audience. I mean, FFS, they got Roman cheered beating Sheamus in Philly, when he got to actually look like a badass. A month later, Roman's doing crappy stand-up comedy promos because Cena could pull them off and the mental midgets writing this material aren't capable of comprehending that taking the exact same scripts they'd been handing the last guy won't magically transform Roman into a merch-moving machine on par with his predecessor. And the fans are back to hating his guts. Oh if we’re talking about square pegs in round holes, that’s a problem Cena had for a long time in my eyes. John Cena the person seems noble, well intentioned and good with a hint of troll and spin sometimes. His character, though? Some weeks he was The Rock, some weeks he was Stone Cold, some weeks he was Hogan, some weeks he was an asshole for no reason, some weeks he didn’t care about what happened to him, one week he cared TOO MUCH about what happened to someone else (Alberto’s cash in on someone not him) and it just came off like he was an avatar for what the writing team needed and not his own character. Ironically, nearer the end of his career with the US title open challenge, the feud with Bray and other stuff that allowed him to be WWE’s Tanahashi was when they got an idea of what Cena was and in some cases could have been with some tweaking.
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Post by Starshine on Aug 6, 2020 20:44:23 GMT -5
Showcasing a top star and having them win most of the time is *not* “incompetent booking”. Of course. What IS incompetent booking is showcasing a wrestler, having them win most of the time, and expecting that to inherently transform them into a top star without regards to their performing abilities or the reactions of your audience. I mean, FFS, they got Roman cheered beating Sheamus in Philly, when he got to actually look like a badass. A month later, Roman's doing crappy stand-up comedy promos because Cena could pull them off and the mental midgets writing this material aren't capable of comprehending that taking the exact same scripts they'd been handing the last guy won't magically transform Roman into a merch-moving machine on par with his predecessor. And the fans are back to hating his guts. The funny thing with Roman is if they just had kept him off the mic, significantly cut down his match times, and just had him clobber guys left and right, he might have become this generations Goldberg. But no, he has to perform long monologues, he has to sell like a traditional babyface, he has to have a media friendly visage. Everything he needed to be in lieu of what fans actually expected just ended up being abrasive against whatever organic potential he probably should have had. So instead they had to bring back the old guy to do the exact same routine the current guy might have had a shot at doing just as well. They're eating their own lunch... wait, does that turn of a phrase even work?
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