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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 12:26:57 GMT -5
Next they're gonna replace his lower half with a robot spider body. He's going to look like the last living dwemer from Morrowind.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 20, 2020 12:45:12 GMT -5
Speaking of that finish, does anyone know why it wasn't a DQ? Ref didn’t see the low blow, I’d assume. Dude was all up in there:
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Oct 20, 2020 13:18:58 GMT -5
Keith treading water is what is gonna hurt him the most in the long run and this is WWE's fault for positioning him where there is next to upward movement for him untill they are ready to make him WWE champion if at all because the 300yr old billionare forgot what he had for breakfast that morning. The issue there is, the alternative, based on what WWE usually do, is him starting at the bottom and going 15 minutes back-and-forth with mid-level guys that have no rub to give at this point. Take someone like The Miz or John Morrison for example. You know neither of them have won a TV match in nearly SIX MONTHS? And yet what would happen when this brute force of nature Keith Lee couldn’t put them away in less than five or ten minutes? This is where you need outside enhancement guys. Yes, it may make the weekly shows predictable as f*** (as though they aren’t already?), but when you show a guy wrecking some tomato can fairly quick, then it MEANS something when two of them collide and have a competitive match. That's how they built up Ryback, so it makes sense.
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Post by eJm on Oct 20, 2020 13:27:21 GMT -5
The issue there is, the alternative, based on what WWE usually do, is him starting at the bottom and going 15 minutes back-and-forth with mid-level guys that have no rub to give at this point. Take someone like The Miz or John Morrison for example. You know neither of them have won a TV match in nearly SIX MONTHS? And yet what would happen when this brute force of nature Keith Lee couldn’t put them away in less than five or ten minutes? This is where you need outside enhancement guys. Yes, it may make the weekly shows predictable as f*** (as though they aren’t already?), but when you show a guy wrecking some tomato can fairly quick, then it MEANS something when two of them collide and have a competitive match. That's how they built up Ryback, so it makes sense. Considering a lot of the people in the company were there during Ryback’s push, it’s bizarre they haven’t been the ones to learn from that considering how well it worked. That would be them also realizing they were the reason it also died so...
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 20, 2020 15:34:02 GMT -5
Keith treading water is what is gonna hurt him the most in the long run and this is WWE's fault for positioning him where there is next to upward movement for him untill they are ready to make him WWE champion if at all because the 300yr old billionare forgot what he had for breakfast that morning. The issue there is, the alternative, based on what WWE usually do, is him starting at the bottom and going 15 minutes back-and-forth with mid-level guys that have no rub to give at this point. Take someone like The Miz or John Morrison for example. You know neither of them have won a TV match in nearly SIX MONTHS? And yet what would happen when this brute force of nature Keith Lee couldn’t put them away in less than five or ten minutes? This is where you need outside enhancement guys. Yes, it may make the weekly shows predictable as f*** (as though they aren’t already?), but when you show a guy wrecking some tomato can fairly quick, then it MEANS something when two of them collide and have a competitive match. When you watch AEW, who are obsessed with their records, and then go back to this subforum and it's literally 'Miz and Morrison have not won a TV match in six months' it's a trip
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 20, 2020 15:53:14 GMT -5
The issue there is, the alternative, based on what WWE usually do, is him starting at the bottom and going 15 minutes back-and-forth with mid-level guys that have no rub to give at this point. Take someone like The Miz or John Morrison for example. You know neither of them have won a TV match in nearly SIX MONTHS? And yet what would happen when this brute force of nature Keith Lee couldn’t put them away in less than five or ten minutes? This is where you need outside enhancement guys. Yes, it may make the weekly shows predictable as f*** (as though they aren’t already?), but when you show a guy wrecking some tomato can fairly quick, then it MEANS something when two of them collide and have a competitive match. When you watch AEW, who are obsessed with their records, and then go back to this subforum and it's literally 'Miz and Morrison have not won a TV match in six months' it's a trip Yeah, well, good thing there are SOME that are obsessed with WWE's records so they don't have to be, apparently. Speaking of which, here ARE their records since their last win. Don't mind the numbers, those are the points gained and lost from that match for the points rankings: The MizJohn MorrisonAnd for good measure, since this thread about him, Keith Lee's record since his main roster callup:
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 20, 2020 15:58:37 GMT -5
When you watch AEW, who are obsessed with their records, and then go back to this subforum and it's literally 'Miz and Morrison have not won a TV match in six months' it's a trip Yeah, well, good thing there are SOME that are obsessed with WWE's records so they don't have to be, apparently. Speaking of which, here ARE their records since their last win. Don't mind the numbers, those are the points gained and lost from that match for the points rankings: The MizJohn MorrisonAnd for good measure, since this thread about him, Keith Lee's record since his main roster callup: I hope you know how much I appreciate you doing all this stats stuff. I know other forumites will too - this kind of insight is genuinely fascinating whenever we have one of those 'X is getting buried' threads and you point out they haven't lost in 2 years or something. Please keep on doing it! It's great!
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 20, 2020 16:13:53 GMT -5
I hope you know how much I appreciate you doing all this stats stuff. I know other forumites will too - this kind of insight is genuinely fascinating whenever we have one of those 'X is getting buried' threads and you point out they haven't lost in 2 years or something. Please keep on doing it! It's great! Thanks, mate. I mean, all I'm basing this project on is the stuff that we hold up as important in our discussions. Winning regularly is important, not going on losing streaks is important, being a champion is important, being in the main event is important, being on PPVs is important, etc. I feel like when I put out the master results at the start of next year (covering a FULL DECADE of WWE TV matches from 2011-2020, although for statistical accuracy matches back to the start of 2008 have been scored), it will accurately reflect most of our judgments and perceptions of how WWE presents their talent, at least from an in-ring perspective.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Oct 20, 2020 16:22:51 GMT -5
I hope you know how much I appreciate you doing all this stats stuff. I know other forumites will too - this kind of insight is genuinely fascinating whenever we have one of those 'X is getting buried' threads and you point out they haven't lost in 2 years or something. Please keep on doing it! It's great! Thanks, mate. I mean, all I'm basing this project on is the stuff that we hold up as important in our discussions. Winning regularly is important, not going on losing streaks is important, being a champion is important, being in the main event is important, being on PPVs is important, etc. I feel like when I put out the master results at the start of next year (covering a FULL DECADE of WWE TV matches from 2011-2020, although for statistical accuracy matches back to the start of 2008 have been scored), it will accurately reflect most of our judgments and perceptions of how WWE presents their talent, at least from an in-ring perspective. I mean, it’s kinda crazy that Drew McIntyre didn’t get pinned for a very long time until two weeks ago, and he’s a guy who’s been booked so strongly in that time.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Oct 20, 2020 16:26:07 GMT -5
Thanks, mate. I mean, all I'm basing this project on is the stuff that we hold up as important in our discussions. Winning regularly is important, not going on losing streaks is important, being a champion is important, being in the main event is important, being on PPVs is important, etc. I feel like when I put out the master results at the start of next year (covering a FULL DECADE of WWE TV matches from 2011-2020, although for statistical accuracy matches back to the start of 2008 have been scored), it will accurately reflect most of our judgments and perceptions of how WWE presents their talent, at least from an in-ring perspective. I mean, it’s kinda crazy that Drew McIntyre didn’t get pinned for a very long time until two weeks ago, and he’s a guy who’s been booked so strongly in that time. He's gonna be a weird one when the results come through for this project, because the reality is that this rocket push has only really been one full year, and his results are gonna be dragged down somewhat by his 3MB run where he was RIGHT at the arse-end of the roster.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 20, 2020 18:05:35 GMT -5
I don’t think Lee going over someone like a Riddick Moss or a Cedric Alexander for a while, or even an NXT talent like Grimes again seeking revenge for a guest appearance, would make the show too predictable. If anything, I think fans today are more accepting of slower paced booking and stats gradually being built up.
Trouble is, WWE is too married to a Crash TV format. Vince wanted to pop immediate ratings, that’s why Keith is in there with the frigging world champion Drew and the former champ Braun. But Keith is still very, very new.
In terms of “TV Age”, Lee’s still carrying a rattle, he’s a baby. A giant baby that will powerbomb you if he’s cranky and doesn’t have his Limitless Lion plush, granted. But he’s l still too young a star to be going back-and-forth with the other talent WWE wants to protect.
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Post by eJm on Oct 20, 2020 18:12:35 GMT -5
I don’t think Lee going over someone like a Riddick Moss or a Cedric Alexander for a while, or even an NXT talent like Grimes again seeking revenge for a guest appearance, would make the show too predictable. If anything, I think fans today are more accepting of slower paced booking and stats gradually being built up. Trouble is, WWE is too married to a Crash TV format. Vince wanted to pop immediate ratings, that’s why Keith is in there with the frigging world champion Drew and the former champ Braun. But Keith is still very, very new. In terms of “TV Age”, Lee’s still carrying a rattle, he’s a baby. A giant baby that will powerbomb you if he’s cranky and doesn’t have his Limitless Lion plush, granted. But he’s l still too young a star to be going back-and-forth with the other talent WWE wants to protect. And one of the unfortunate thing about Raw appealing to more casual fans, or at least people who just have Raw on as tradition like soaps, game shows and the like, is that they don’t see the work someone goes through to get to WWE or even their time in NXT (even though it could be argued a good chunk of that audience watches both at this point), they only see when they get to the main roster. In that degree, you need to make it so people at the very least are interested in where something could go, talents, stables etc. If it feels like you don’t care about them, they won’t. If you make them feel like they’re not special, they won’t feel they’re special. Too often, they’re called up, muddle around a little bit and then when they get something interesting, people rightfully don’t care because why should they? The best example I can think of is Shinsuke Nakamura. WWE called him up at WrestleMania weekend to a massive pop, had the guy not speak and put him over on commentary as something different...and then he had a 15 minute competitive match with Dolph Ziggler where Dolph kicked his ass for 99% of it. And if a guy can’t easily beat someone who at the time was as low in importance as possible who everyone else could beat, why should anyone care?
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Oct 20, 2020 18:15:18 GMT -5
I don’t think Lee going over someone like a Riddick Moss or a Cedric Alexander for a while, or even an NXT talent like Grimes again seeking revenge for a guest appearance, would make the show too predictable. If anything, I think fans today are more accepting of slower paced booking and stats gradually being built up. Trouble is, WWE is too married to a Crash TV format. Vince wanted to pop immediate ratings, that’s why Keith is in there with the frigging world champion Drew and the former champ Braun. But Keith is still very, very new. In terms of “TV Age”, Lee’s still carrying a rattle, he’s a baby. A giant baby that will powerbomb you if he’s cranky and doesn’t have his Limitless Lion plush, granted. But he’s l still too young a star to be going back-and-forth with the other talent WWE wants to protect. And one of the unfortunate thing about Raw appealing to more casual fans, or at least people who just have Raw on as tradition like soaps, game shows and the like, is that they don’t see the work someone goes through to get to WWE or even their time in NXT (even though it could be argued a good chunk of that audience watches both at this point), they only see when they get to the main roster. In that degree, you need to make it so people at the very least are interested in where something could go, talents, stables etc. If it feels like you don’t care about them, they won’t. If you make them feel like they’re not special, they won’t feel they’re special. Too often, they’re called up, muddle around a little bit and then when they get something interesting, people rightfully don’t care because why should they? The best example I can think of is Shinsuke Nakamura. WWE called him up at WrestleMania weekend to a massive pop, had the guy not speak and put him over on commentary as something different...and then he had a 15 minute competitive match with Dolph Ziggler where Dolph kicked his ass for 99% of it. And if a guy can’t easily beat someone who at the time was as low in importance as possible who everyone else could beat, why should anyone care? Then they booked Nakamura into irrelevancy as a face by having him be just another failed Jinder Mahal challenger.
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Post by eJm on Oct 20, 2020 18:17:29 GMT -5
And one of the unfortunate thing about Raw appealing to more casual fans, or at least people who just have Raw on as tradition like soaps, game shows and the like, is that they don’t see the work someone goes through to get to WWE or even their time in NXT (even though it could be argued a good chunk of that audience watches both at this point), they only see when they get to the main roster. In that degree, you need to make it so people at the very least are interested in where something could go, talents, stables etc. If it feels like you don’t care about them, they won’t. If you make them feel like they’re not special, they won’t feel they’re special. Too often, they’re called up, muddle around a little bit and then when they get something interesting, people rightfully don’t care because why should they? The best example I can think of is Shinsuke Nakamura. WWE called him up at WrestleMania weekend to a massive pop, had the guy not speak and put him over on commentary as something different...and then he had a 15 minute competitive match with Dolph Ziggler where Dolph kicked his ass for 99% of it. And if a guy can’t easily beat someone who at the time was as low in importance as possible who everyone else could beat, why should anyone care? Then they booked Nakamura into irrelevancy as a face by having him be just another failed Jinder Mahal challenger. That’s another point, how many times have they done the angle where the face loses so many times the only way they can get anything is by turning their back on the fans and blaming them for their faults? Because it feels like everyone’s f***ing gone through that arc at some point.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 20, 2020 20:29:28 GMT -5
Then they booked Nakamura into irrelevancy as a face by having him be just another failed Jinder Mahal challenger. That’s another point, how many times have they done the angle where the face loses so many times the only way they can get anything is by turning their back on the fans and blaming them for their faults? Because it feels like everyone’s f***ing gone through that arc at some point. YOU PEOPLE
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,850
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Post by Dub H on Oct 20, 2020 20:31:10 GMT -5
When you watch AEW, who are obsessed with their records, and then go back to this subforum and it's literally 'Miz and Morrison have not won a TV match in six months' it's a trip Yeah, well, good thing there are SOME that are obsessed with WWE's records so they don't have to be, apparently. Speaking of which, here ARE their records since their last win. Don't mind the numbers, those are the points gained and lost from that match for the points rankings: The MizJohn MorrisonAnd for good measure, since this thread about him, Keith Lee's record since his main roster callup: Another thing that WWE doesnt seem to have learned in the last 10 years. Protected finishes means nothing if you keep losing.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Oct 20, 2020 21:09:01 GMT -5
Yeah, well, good thing there are SOME that are obsessed with WWE's records so they don't have to be, apparently. Speaking of which, here ARE their records since their last win. Don't mind the numbers, those are the points gained and lost from that match for the points rankings: The MizJohn MorrisonAnd for good measure, since this thread about him, Keith Lee's record since his main roster callup: Another thing that WWE doesnt seem to have learned in the last 10 years. Protected finishes means nothing if you keep losing. It’s why Bray Wyatt was a goober for so long before the Fiend turn.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 21, 2020 4:09:29 GMT -5
Then they booked Nakamura into irrelevancy as a face by having him be just another failed Jinder Mahal challenger. That’s another point, how many times have they done the angle where the face loses so many times the only way they can get anything is by turning their back on the fans and blaming them for their faults? Because it feels like everyone’s f***ing gone through that arc at some point. Elias has literally gone through it like three times now.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 21, 2020 4:36:50 GMT -5
And one of the unfortunate thing about Raw appealing to more casual fans, or at least people who just have Raw on as tradition like soaps, game shows and the like, is that they don’t see the work someone goes through to get to WWE or even their time in NXT (even though it could be argued a good chunk of that audience watches both at this point), they only see when they get to the main roster. In that degree, you need to make it so people at the very least are interested in where something could go, talents, stables etc. If it feels like you don’t care about them, they won’t. If you make them feel like they’re not special, they won’t feel they’re special. Too often, they’re called up, muddle around a little bit and then when they get something interesting, people rightfully don’t care because why should they? The best example I can think of is Shinsuke Nakamura. WWE called him up at WrestleMania weekend to a massive pop, had the guy not speak and put him over on commentary as something different...and then he had a 15 minute competitive match with Dolph Ziggler where Dolph kicked his ass for 99% of it. And if a guy can’t easily beat someone who at the time was as low in importance as possible who everyone else could beat, why should anyone care? Then they booked Nakamura into irrelevancy as a face by having him be just another failed Jinder Mahal challenger. then turned him heel... which is fine on paper... angry that AJ caught him with a quick pin and start dick kicking people... but then they still never let him win against AJ...
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 21, 2020 4:41:06 GMT -5
Another thing that WWE doesnt seem to have learned in the last 10 years. Protected finishes means nothing if you keep losing. It’s why Bray Wyatt was a goober for so long before the Fiend turn. The other issue with Pre-fiend Bray was... his storylines were him randomly attacking people, consisted of mostly nonsensical ramblings that really meant nothing... and win or lose nothing mattered. Either Bray would just continue attacking the person... or he'd just attack some other random person and start the cycle anew. It's hard to make someone look important when what they do has literally no impact.
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