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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 8:03:24 GMT -5
I really just don’t understand the Keith Lee stuff at all. Dude’s huge, intimidating, charismatic, good on the microphone, he seems like the type of big man Vince would have dreamed up years ago. And yet here we are. I always got the impression I knew what Vince wanted from a big man because he tried to make so many prospects that sort of big man but...I feel like I don’t know what he wants from any wrestler, never mind from Keith. And we’re likely going to see people call Keith a “dime a dozen talent” or whatever instead of trying to figure out who hires who in this company and what they’re hired for. He’s been up for a short time and he’s being prominently featured with main eventers, I’m not sure what’s being messed up here unless people thought he should be instant champion or go on a Goldberg-like streak.
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Post by eJm on Nov 3, 2020 8:13:22 GMT -5
I really just don’t understand the Keith Lee stuff at all. Dude’s huge, intimidating, charismatic, good on the microphone, he seems like the type of big man Vince would have dreamed up years ago. And yet here we are. I always got the impression I knew what Vince wanted from a big man because he tried to make so many prospects that sort of big man but...I feel like I don’t know what he wants from any wrestler, never mind from Keith. And we’re likely going to see people call Keith a “dime a dozen talent” or whatever instead of trying to figure out who hires who in this company and what they’re hired for. He’s been up for a short time and he’s being prominently featured with main eventers, I’m not sure what’s being messed up here unless people thought he should be instant champion or go on a Goldberg-like streak. It just feels like every time I hear about him, he just feels like a bland big man who wears a shirt for some reason who cuts generic promos and it’s like...why? Also doesn’t help he had that one match where he squashed Orton and, like, zero things came from that.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 9:29:47 GMT -5
He’s been up for a short time and he’s being prominently featured with main eventers, I’m not sure what’s being messed up here unless people thought he should be instant champion or go on a Goldberg-like streak. It just feels like every time I hear about him, he just feels like a bland big man who wears a shirt for some reason who cuts generic promos and it’s like...why? Also doesn’t help he had that one match where he squashed Orton and, like, zero things came from that. The outfit was bad at first but they adjusted it and the current look suits him. He’s never been a very good promo and I’m not sure I see a big difference between his NXT and Raw promos. And yes he’s not straight into the world title picture but I don’t think he necessarily should be. Let him build some main roster momentum. They’re clearly establishing him as a main event player considering he has been feuding with former/current world champions (Orton, AJ, Sheamus, Braun).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 12:03:47 GMT -5
It just feels like every time I hear about him, he just feels like a bland big man who wears a shirt for some reason who cuts generic promos and it’s like...why? Also doesn’t help he had that one match where he squashed Orton and, like, zero things came from that. The outfit was bad at first but they adjusted it and the current look suits him. He’s never been a very good promo and I’m not sure I see a big difference between his NXT and Raw promos. And yes he’s not straight into the world title picture but I don’t think he necessarily should be. Let him build some main roster momentum. They’re clearly establishing him as a main event player considering he has been feuding with former/current world champions (Orton, AJ, Sheamus, Braun). The message they're sending with that fat shirt is "This guy is too fat to be marketable. Oh, and anything you saw him do on that other show doesn't mean anything" Thats why I hate it.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 12:28:51 GMT -5
The outfit was bad at first but they adjusted it and the current look suits him. He’s never been a very good promo and I’m not sure I see a big difference between his NXT and Raw promos. And yes he’s not straight into the world title picture but I don’t think he necessarily should be. Let him build some main roster momentum. They’re clearly establishing him as a main event player considering he has been feuding with former/current world champions (Orton, AJ, Sheamus, Braun). The message they're sending with that fat shirt is "This guy is too fat to be marketable. Oh, and anything you saw him do on that other show doesn't mean anything" Thats why I hate it. He’s not wearing the “fat shirt” anymore. It’s more of a singlet looking shirt.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 12:31:02 GMT -5
The singlet still really sucks IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 12:40:40 GMT -5
I really just don’t understand the Keith Lee stuff at all. Dude’s huge, intimidating, charismatic, good on the microphone, he seems like the type of big man Vince would have dreamed up years ago. And yet here we are. I always got the impression I knew what Vince wanted from a big man because he tried to make so many prospects that sort of big man but...I feel like I don’t know what he wants from any wrestler, never mind from Keith. And we’re likely going to see people call Keith a “dime a dozen talent” or whatever instead of trying to figure out who hires who in this company and what they’re hired for. He’s been up for a short time and he’s being prominently featured with main eventers, I’m not sure what’s being messed up here unless people thought he should be instant champion or go on a Goldberg-like streak. He shouldn't be invincible, but constantly punking him out at the last moment before a victory or making sure he isn't involved in a match finish is a good way to lower his value. Either let him win, or just let him be another cog on the machine.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 3, 2020 12:46:27 GMT -5
Who in modern WWE has actually benefited from showing up and immediately losing to the upper card? I feel like we've seen a million pushes just like this that have gone absolutely nowhere, and virtually nobody has come out of them looking good. You don't gain momentum by always losing, doesn't matter who it's to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 13:14:01 GMT -5
God bless the undying optimism of the "wait and see" crowd I guess.
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Post by XIII on Nov 3, 2020 13:27:57 GMT -5
God bless the undying optimism of the "wait and see" crowd I guess.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 13:40:38 GMT -5
Who in modern WWE has actually benefited from showing up and immediately losing to the upper card? I feel like we've seen a million pushes just like this that have gone absolutely nowhere, and virtually nobody has come out of them looking good. You don't gain momentum by always losing, doesn't matter who it's to. That’s not what has happened here. Lee has been pinned one time and it was after a Braun low blow. Lee has won four matches by pin. The rest of his matches have either been DQ/No Contest finishes or multi man matches where he does not take the pin. He’s being booked fairly strongly.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 3, 2020 13:48:37 GMT -5
Who in modern WWE has actually benefited from showing up and immediately losing to the upper card? I feel like we've seen a million pushes just like this that have gone absolutely nowhere, and virtually nobody has come out of them looking good. You don't gain momentum by always losing, doesn't matter who it's to. That’s not what has happened here. Lee has been pinned one time and it was after a Braun low blow. Lee has won four matches by pin. The rest of his matches have either been DQ/No Contest finishes or multi man matches where he does not take the pin. He’s being booked fairly strongly. Being the guy who is in a match that gets blown up by someone jumping in isn't a good position to be in, though. Draws don't build stars. Running with wins over lowbie dudes and then losing to bigger stars is still not a good position, and being the spare dick in a triple threat is also just not a good way to attain momentum at all. Lee should be in feuds he can win to establish his character, not to spin his wheels on this nonsense; it's the same thing that happened to Neville when he got called up.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 14:27:55 GMT -5
That’s not what has happened here. Lee has been pinned one time and it was after a Braun low blow. Lee has won four matches by pin. The rest of his matches have either been DQ/No Contest finishes or multi man matches where he does not take the pin. He’s being booked fairly strongly. Being the guy who is in a match that gets blown up by someone jumping in isn't a good position to be in, though. Draws don't build stars. Running with wins over lowbie dudes and then losing to bigger stars is still not a good position, and being the spare dick in a triple threat is also just not a good way to attain momentum at all. Lee should be in feuds he can win to establish his character, not to spin his wheels on this nonsense; it's the same thing that happened to Neville when he got called up. I’m not saying he’s been booked as perfectly as possible to be an instant top guy but he is being protected and the idea that he’s just eating a bunch of losses and only beating lower carders isn’t accurate.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 3, 2020 14:41:14 GMT -5
Being the guy who is in a match that gets blown up by someone jumping in isn't a good position to be in, though. Draws don't build stars. Running with wins over lowbie dudes and then losing to bigger stars is still not a good position, and being the spare dick in a triple threat is also just not a good way to attain momentum at all. Lee should be in feuds he can win to establish his character, not to spin his wheels on this nonsense; it's the same thing that happened to Neville when he got called up. I’m not saying he’s been booked as perfectly as possible to be an instant top guy but he is being protected and the idea that he’s just eating a bunch of losses and only beating lower carders isn’t accurate. Being in matches someone else wins are still loses. Having 3/4 of his wins be against dudes who are lowcarders while coming up short in conclusive finishes against guys above him is exactly what being in that position entails.
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Post by polarbearpete on Nov 3, 2020 15:20:22 GMT -5
I’m not saying he’s been booked as perfectly as possible to be an instant top guy but he is being protected and the idea that he’s just eating a bunch of losses and only beating lower carders isn’t accurate. Being in matches someone else wins are still loses. Having 3/4 of his wins be against dudes who are lowcarders while coming up short in conclusive finishes against guys above him is exactly what being in that position entails. Going to agree to disagree. The guy has been very protected even in matches he does not win, was pinned once by cheating (and immediately got his revenge after the match), and has a clean PPV pinfall victory over the current world champ. The idea he’s being done dirty on the main roster just doesn’t jive with that.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Nov 3, 2020 15:33:59 GMT -5
Here is the problem with his booking. When you have a guy beat someone like Orton in his second match, that raises expectations. It makes you think he's going to be a main event level guy. He's going to be in title contention. He hasn't jobbed really since. His booking has been what you get on the main roster. He beats guys he should and he generally gets protected when he loses. There have been some weird choices for sure (beating Elias via distraction, not just destroying Ziggler in two minutes, and taking an unnecessary RKO in the Rollins/Orton triple threat) but for the most part. he has been established as a solid upper micard guy. He's at the level of an AJ or a Sheamus. The problem is that he seemed to be on the verge of so much more. I'd rather build him up slowly rather than giving him a win over Orton and then just assuming that your work is done and he's established. And all of that is strictly when talking wins and losses. There are plenty of other issues when it comes to his presentation (his outfit, his lack of character development, etc).
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 3, 2020 17:10:21 GMT -5
They've somehow managed to find a way to ruin one of the most likeable guys on the roster. From the shit theme to the crappy fat shirt to the change of finisher to the tone of his voice when he cuts a promo... Everything about this guy sucks right now. And none of it is on him. WWE - fun ruiner! It is astounding to me. I look back now and I think when I started to doubt WWE's creative, not just doubt it, but start to think I was wasting my time, was when they f***ed up Nakamura. He seemed like a once-in-a-generation talent. He seemed can't miss. 'Man if they screw up Nakamura, they don't know what they're doing' I remember thinking now. He’s been up for a short time and he’s being prominently featured with main eventers, I’m not sure what’s being messed up here unless people thought he should be instant champion or go on a Goldberg-like streak. Being on television doesn't mean someone is used well. Especially WWE television. Very few people are used well on WWE television, even the champions.
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Post by eJm on Nov 3, 2020 17:18:13 GMT -5
It is astounding to me. I look back now and I think when I started to doubt WWE's creative, not just doubt it, but start to think I was wasting my time, was when they f***ed up Nakamura. He seemed like a once-in-a-generation talent. He seemed can't miss. 'Man if they screw up Nakamura, they don't know what they're doing' I remember thinking now. Bayley was that moment for me. You had a plucky, underdog babyface with honestly one of the more underrated championship rises in recent history pretty much help usher in the generation of talent we have now, get called up, basically have her character assassinated to the point where there was a point she was barely anything worthwhile. It was honestly one of the most mean spirited set of booking decisions I had ever seen. And yes, she’s doing great as a heel but how depressing is it when the list of “great baby faces only get anywhere when they turn heel even though that wasn’t what got people to enjoy them in the first place” goes at least two pages?
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 3, 2020 17:23:52 GMT -5
It is astounding to me. I look back now and I think when I started to doubt WWE's creative, not just doubt it, but start to think I was wasting my time, was when they f***ed up Nakamura. He seemed like a once-in-a-generation talent. He seemed can't miss. 'Man if they screw up Nakamura, they don't know what they're doing' I remember thinking now. Bayley was that moment for me. You had a plucky, underdog babyface with honestly one of the more underrated championship rises in recent history pretty much help usher in the generation of talent we have now, get called up, basically have her character assassinated to the point where there was a point she was barely anything worthwhile. It was honestly one of the most mean spirited set of booking decisions I had ever seen. And yes, she’s doing great as a heel but how depressing is it when the list of “great baby faces only get anywhere when they turn heel even though that wasn’t what got people to enjoy them in the first place” goes at least two pages? You will already be sick by now of my 'Bayley could have been female John Cena' rant, but in the bluntest possible terms, I knew from moment one that Bayley did not look like the woman that WWE would have put in that position, even though if she had looked like her, she wouldn't have been suitable for it. WWE everybody!
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Post by Hypnosis on Nov 4, 2020 8:08:46 GMT -5
Bayley was that moment for me. You had a plucky, underdog babyface with honestly one of the more underrated championship rises in recent history pretty much help usher in the generation of talent we have now, get called up, basically have her character assassinated to the point where there was a point she was barely anything worthwhile. It was honestly one of the most mean spirited set of booking decisions I had ever seen. And yes, she’s doing great as a heel but how depressing is it when the list of “great baby faces only get anywhere when they turn heel even though that wasn’t what got people to enjoy them in the first place” goes at least two pages? You will already be sick by now of my 'Bayley could have been female John Cena' rant, but in the bluntest possible terms, I knew from moment one that Bayley did not look like the woman that WWE would have put in that position, even though if she had looked like her, she wouldn't have been suitable for it. WWE everybody!We need to get @dcr to make a Meltzer newsletter report thread on this company from the beginning of Hulkamania to now.
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