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Post by government mule on Dec 21, 2020 11:49:12 GMT -5
HHH reign of terror 2003. He had no reason to retain the belt in the EC at Summerslam 2003 when he was already injured and bloated (the bike shorts!), and killed the Goldberg momentum stone dead. I'm referencing this example as it was the reason I said 'nope' to the company and stopped watchimg for nearly a decade and I can't imagine I was the only one.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 21, 2020 11:49:50 GMT -5
Wasn't Bischoff out of the company by the time Aces and Eights happened? It was his idea. Probably why his son was involved.
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Post by Balesirion on Dec 21, 2020 12:06:47 GMT -5
A bit of an oddball choice, but how about the New Japan vs UWFi feud? An inter-promotional feud that did some of New Japan's best business ever, but completely killed UWFi because they let New Japan book most of their guys to win. Granted, a lack of stars besides Nobuhiko Takada and the rise of Japanese MMA probably would have killed UWFi within a few years anyway, but it's hard to argue the feud didn't play a huge role in the end of the promotion.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Dec 21, 2020 13:09:54 GMT -5
The CHIKARA Shutdown Angle buried the company dead in my opinion. They were on fire in 2012 and 2013. They were projected to grow even more, but because of the "shutdown", and splintering into like eight small local companies, you kill the momentum dead in their tracks. While they came back and had an amazing 2014, the split with Smart Mark and just working out of the new Factory just made the company feel so small and low rent. Was Quackenbush forced to do that for legal reasons because he couldn’t legally run CHIKARA shows for a period of time? I remember the rumor was he was going through a divorce and he either couldn’t or didn’t want to risk running CHIKARA shows until the details were all settled. I’m pretty sure that’s been dispelled though. Why was the reason for this insanity if not that? I’d look it up, but would prefer a clear cut answer as I don’t want to go down a CHIKARA rabbit hole
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 21, 2020 13:48:54 GMT -5
The Austin Heel turn and the Invasion angle I think were like a one-two punch that killed a lot of WWF's popularity. I don’t know what the actual numbers were in terms of ratings directly after, but for the long term effects the Finger Poke of Doom has to be up there for hurting WCW. 1. The Austin turn definitely did a number on them. The Invasion led to an initial spike but then dropped after the first PPV. You could argue that was also caused by the 2nd Austin heel turn of the year when he joined the Alliance. 2. And that's an odd one. The floor basically fell out for WCW ratings wise in late April/early May and never recovered. The Finger Poke probably started the decline in a way but it seems like the lack of follow up is what really doomed them. Goldberg never really got revenge in the way he should have against Hogan. Flair going for the title did some business but then went heel randomly. The nWo angle just fell apart. By early May, it was basically just like it was before the nWo just with a longer show, worse booking, and older stars. Yeah, if I remember correctly I'm pretty sure WCW did some solid ratings after the Fingerpoke. The real death knell was Goldberg getting injured punching the limo window, keeping him from tearing through the nWo once and for all, and then leaving the booking to do the strange angle where Flair and the Horsemen stood up to the unified nWo...and then they pulled a double switch? So weird. I know Flair probably wanted to be heel at that point, but the only message sent to the audience was "We really don't know what we're doing here anymore". Somewhere in the multiverse there's an alternate timeline where Goldberg stays healthy and is the one who ends the nWo and...well, I won't say it'd have saved WCW entirely, there were still plenty of issues under the hood, but it could've changed a lot of other things (maybe Russo never gets hired?). Either way, the narrative of "Fingerpoke happened, WCW's death began and WWF took over completely" doesn't match the full reality; the Fingerpoke was definitely the breaking point for a lot of fans, but the overall numbers showed that the failure to follow through on the storyline might've truly been the last straw.
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Post by nickcave on Dec 21, 2020 13:51:22 GMT -5
WWE might have been able to at least maintain decent ratings if they did not do the fake Austin face turn and immediate heel turn again at the Invasion ppv. I also think the angle of Austin turning face and Angle turning heel immediately after saving the company without any reason was a nail as well
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 21, 2020 13:54:32 GMT -5
The CHIKARA Shutdown Angle buried the company dead in my opinion. They were on fire in 2012 and 2013. They were projected to grow even more, but because of the "shutdown", and splintering into like eight small local companies, you kill the momentum dead in their tracks. While they came back and had an amazing 2014, the split with Smart Mark and just working out of the new Factory just made the company feel so small and low rent. Was Quackenbush forced to do that for legal reasons because he couldn’t legally run CHIKARA shows for a period of time? I remember the rumor was he was going through a divorce and he either couldn’t or didn’t want to risk running CHIKARA shows until the details were all settled. I’m pretty sure that’s been dispelled though. Why was the reason for this insanity if not that? I’d look it up, but would prefer a clear cut answer as I don’t want to go down a CHIKARA rabbit hole It was a rumor and it really doesn't make any kind of legal sense... so I don't see it being true at all. I don't think anyone's ever said anything specific one way or another... however "Quack's long term storyline ends with the big bad's winning at least temporarily" makes way more logical sense than any kind've court order. Speaking of Chikara... I can't imagine the "SECRET SEASON" did much good for the company... considering several things were spoiled by it airing concurrently with a current season and did things like Spoil an Ultramantis Black title win.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Dec 21, 2020 13:58:02 GMT -5
1. The Austin turn definitely did a number on them. The Invasion led to an initial spike but then dropped after the first PPV. You could argue that was also caused by the 2nd Austin heel turn of the year when he joined the Alliance. 2. And that's an odd one. The floor basically fell out for WCW ratings wise in late April/early May and never recovered. The Finger Poke probably started the decline in a way but it seems like the lack of follow up is what really doomed them. Goldberg never really got revenge in the way he should have against Hogan. Flair going for the title did some business but then went heel randomly. The nWo angle just fell apart. By early May, it was basically just like it was before the nWo just with a longer show, worse booking, and older stars. Yeah, if I remember correctly I'm pretty sure WCW did some solid ratings after the Fingerpoke. The real death knell was Goldberg getting injured punching the limo window, keeping him from tearing through the nWo once and for all, and then leaving the booking to do the strange angle where Flair and the Horsemen stood up to the unified nWo...and then they pulled a double switch? So weird. I know Flair probably wanted to be heel at that point, but the only message sent to the audience was "We really don't know what we're doing here anymore". Somewhere in the multiverse there's an alternate timeline where Goldberg stays healthy and is the one who ends the nWo and...well, I won't say it'd have saved WCW entirely, there were still plenty of issues under the hood, but it could've changed a lot of other things (maybe Russo never gets hired?). Either way, the narrative of "Fingerpoke happened, WCW's death began and WWF took over completely" doesn't match the full reality; the Fingerpoke was definitely the breaking point for a lot of fans, but the overall numbers showed that the failure to follow through on the storyline might've truly been the last straw. That's the thing - Goldberg didn't injure his arm in early '99, that was late '99 when "nWo 2000" was around.
So WCW just didn't follow up the Fingerpoke of Doom angle properly for no good reason at all.
Those first few months of 1999 in WCW are filled with some of the most baffling and destructive booking decisions in wrestling history.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 21, 2020 14:31:00 GMT -5
Yeah, if I remember correctly I'm pretty sure WCW did some solid ratings after the Fingerpoke. The real death knell was Goldberg getting injured punching the limo window, keeping him from tearing through the nWo once and for all, and then leaving the booking to do the strange angle where Flair and the Horsemen stood up to the unified nWo...and then they pulled a double switch? So weird. I know Flair probably wanted to be heel at that point, but the only message sent to the audience was "We really don't know what we're doing here anymore". Somewhere in the multiverse there's an alternate timeline where Goldberg stays healthy and is the one who ends the nWo and...well, I won't say it'd have saved WCW entirely, there were still plenty of issues under the hood, but it could've changed a lot of other things (maybe Russo never gets hired?). Either way, the narrative of "Fingerpoke happened, WCW's death began and WWF took over completely" doesn't match the full reality; the Fingerpoke was definitely the breaking point for a lot of fans, but the overall numbers showed that the failure to follow through on the storyline might've truly been the last straw. That's the thing - Goldberg didn't injure his arm in early '99, that was late '99 when "nWo 2000" was around.
So WCW just didn't follow up the Fingerpoke of Doom angle properly for no good reason at all.
Those first few months of 1999 in WCW are filled with some of the most baffling and destructive booking decisions in wrestling history.
He did have another injury in 99 where he was out from May to July which did coincide with their big ratings drop (and drops in buyrates/ticket sales). But they had plenty of time for him to run through the nWo from January to April and just...didn't. By the time he beats Nash at Spring Stampede, it meant nothing and the faction was basically already done at that point anyway. And after that, they've lost Hogan and Goldberg to injury, turn DDP and Flair heel, turn Nash face, and have a midlife crisis Macho Man return as a top heel. It was a terrible time.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Dec 21, 2020 14:44:01 GMT -5
Wasn't Bischoff out of the company by the time Aces and Eights happened? It was his idea. Probably why his son was involved. He talks about it a lot on his podcast
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 21, 2020 17:25:30 GMT -5
HHH reign of terror 2003. He had no reason to retain the belt in the EC at Summerslam 2003 when he was already injured and bloated (the bike shorts!), and killed the Goldberg momentum stone dead. I'm referencing this example as it was the reason I said 'nope' to the company and stopped watchimg for nearly a decade and I can't imagine I was the only one. How good does Goldberg end up looking if they just let him paste through the match like he did and then actually win it? He becomes an actual problem that Evolution doesn't know how to deal with for the first time in a while, making things actually interesting. Hell, maybe they can have a trial run on Batista by having that same comeback angle then having those 2 being a PPV match? They could still have Goldberg lose the belt the same way and be in the hunt like he was, but he doesn't have the stink of a super short reign on him.
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bob
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Post by bob on Dec 21, 2020 17:31:02 GMT -5
Katie Vick
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Dec 21, 2020 18:02:47 GMT -5
Speaking of Chikara... I can't imagine the "SECRET SEASON" did much good for the company... considering several things were spoiled by it airing concurrently with a current season and did things like Spoil an Ultramantis Black title win. The concept of a bingeable season was sound, it was the execution that was awful. When you think "bingeable", you think whole seasons at once, not staggered chunks. Segments were clearly aired out of order, that contributed to their big new face group failing out the gate. Mantis' title reign was utterly wasted. Keeping track of points was a nightmare. The Challenge of the Immortals was another one. Just messy.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 21, 2020 18:09:28 GMT -5
I think the way the Magnus title reign was booked soured a lot of people on the product. He needs a ton of help to beat Sting and AJ who are both leaving the company and then he just loses it to EY where it looks way too similar to the Daniel Bryan angle.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 18:46:02 GMT -5
I thought Aces and Eights was a decent angle by TNAs standards to be honest. Sure the reveals were largely underwhelming but it did work. Anderson was a good addition to the group. Brisco, Knox and Gallows worked aswell and without them, it would've looked like a bunch of Attitude Era midcarders having a mid life crisis.
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Post by timelimitdraw on Dec 21, 2020 20:33:21 GMT -5
Karen.
That whole situation resulted in Jeff Jarrett's influence in TNA becoming non-existent, which eventually helped lead to the company's collapse as more responsibility fell onto Dixie Carter and she wasn't ready for it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 21, 2020 20:54:27 GMT -5
That's the thing - Goldberg didn't injure his arm in early '99, that was late '99 when "nWo 2000" was around. So WCW just didn't follow up the Fingerpoke of Doom angle properly for no good reason at all. Those first few months of 1999 in WCW are filled with some of the most baffling and destructive booking decisions in wrestling history.
He did have another injury in 99 where he was out from May to July which did coincide with their big ratings drop (and drops in buyrates/ticket sales). But they had plenty of time for him to run through the nWo from January to April and just...didn't. By the time he beats Nash at Spring Stampede, it meant nothing and the faction was basically already done at that point anyway. And after that, they've lost Hogan and Goldberg to injury, turn DDP and Flair heel, turn Nash face, and have a midlife crisis Macho Man return as a top heel. It was a terrible time. Damn, you guys are right, I totally flip-flopped those Goldberg injuries in my mind. And yeah, it's insane that they go from "Goldberg tears the nWo apart brick by brick" to "Goldberg is fighting the nWo into the springtime, but now the nWo is largely babyface and we're not sure why they're still fighting." I'd understand making Goldberg chasing down Hogan a year-long program leading up to Starrcade, but, uh...Hogan was already face by Spring Stampede. Just seemingly no plan whatsoever. It's suddenly making a lot of sense to me why I really wasn't watching much WCW or WWF by the start of 2000 outside of checking out a few Nitros here and there, '99 was just dire across the board.
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 22, 2020 0:38:07 GMT -5
He did have another injury in 99 where he was out from May to July which did coincide with their big ratings drop (and drops in buyrates/ticket sales). But they had plenty of time for him to run through the nWo from January to April and just...didn't. By the time he beats Nash at Spring Stampede, it meant nothing and the faction was basically already done at that point anyway. And after that, they've lost Hogan and Goldberg to injury, turn DDP and Flair heel, turn Nash face, and have a midlife crisis Macho Man return as a top heel. It was a terrible time. Damn, you guys are right, I totally flip-flopped those Goldberg injuries in my mind. And yeah, it's insane that they go from "Goldberg tears the nWo apart brick by brick" to "Goldberg is fighting the nWo into the springtime, but now the nWo is largely babyface and we're not sure why they're still fighting." I'd understand making Goldberg chasing down Hogan a year-long program leading up to Starrcade, but, uh...Hogan was already face by Spring Stampede. Just seemingly no plan whatsoever. It's suddenly making a lot of sense to me why I really wasn't watching much WCW or WWF by the start of 2000 outside of checking out a few Nitros here and there, '99 was just dire across the board. As a super occasional WCW viewer, I feeling it’s telling that it’s 2020 and I still have zero idea how the nWo angle ended.
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The Thread Barbi
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 22, 2020 2:31:43 GMT -5
No one going for the obvious joke and say Kurt Angle Directly Hurt...?
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Post by Z-A Sandbaggin' Son of a b!%@h on Dec 22, 2020 2:46:17 GMT -5
Damn, you guys are right, I totally flip-flopped those Goldberg injuries in my mind. And yeah, it's insane that they go from "Goldberg tears the nWo apart brick by brick" to "Goldberg is fighting the nWo into the springtime, but now the nWo is largely babyface and we're not sure why they're still fighting." I'd understand making Goldberg chasing down Hogan a year-long program leading up to Starrcade, but, uh...Hogan was already face by Spring Stampede. Just seemingly no plan whatsoever. It's suddenly making a lot of sense to me why I really wasn't watching much WCW or WWF by the start of 2000 outside of checking out a few Nitros here and there, '99 was just dire across the board. As a super occasional WCW viewer, I feeling it’s telling that it’s 2020 and I still have zero idea how the nWo angle ended. Googled and found this. Kinda choppy. But a neat rundown www.angelfire.com/mb/outsidersedge/nwo.htm
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