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Post by Fake Jesus on Jul 30, 2021 4:00:21 GMT -5
When they started using 'entertainment' writers and not experienced wrestlers to book the shows? Come off it. 70% of the "experienced wrestlers" who have been booking shows since the 90s have no clue what they're doing. If Vince and his cronies were stranded on a desert island that writer's room would have WWE at its most acclaimed in a generation - because literally all it takes is a basic understanding of narrative - not even good narrative, elementary narrative, the sort of hack Hero's Journey shit that's been the bread and butter of trash fiction for a century. WWE is the worst written show on television, and with the level of staff turnover in their creative department - there's one common denominator.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jul 30, 2021 6:12:24 GMT -5
Around about 2002/03 I suddenly realised I just wasn't really enjoying it anymore. The initial high of the excitement of the Invasion had given way to a dark cloud of realisation that it would be a long time until another competitor would rise up which took away a lot of the excitement of what it was to be a fan in the nineties. I think having become a fan when having a 'Big Three' was just a given it hadn't initially crossed my mind just how big a deal it was that WWE were now the only game in town and what impact that would have on me, the viewer and so when that set in I really struggled to get any joy out of it anymore and subsequently didn't watch full-time again until AEW launched nearly 20 years later.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jul 30, 2021 7:02:58 GMT -5
Me personally, three things:
1. The Titus O'Neal suspension.
2. The Saudi deal.
3. Moving Smackdown to Fox.
I'm going to explain the third one, since the first two are pretty self explanatory. I was hanging on by a thread for a while, but they announced the Fox deal, promised the show would be different, look different, be different because it was on Fox. It may have been a draft show, I don't remember what was first or second, but it quickly became the same, safe shit, with the same buzzwords, the same camera angles, the same McWrestling. I just had enough at that point, because I realized, as a fan, nothing I said or did made a difference.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 30, 2021 8:06:47 GMT -5
I’m really perturbed by the fact I’m now the same age or older than most of the wrestlers. I think because I started out as a fan at 6, everyone was larger than life and a character and everything was exciting, but watching guys younger than you, with just basic names and no personality to speak of by and large it takes something away. For instance, I was never a huge New Day fan. I don’t particularly care for any of them but when they came on screen, they were larger than life and having the time of their lives and showed, so even though I don’t much like them, I was always entertained. Seeing more aspects (even if it's not a total picture) of their outside-the-ring selves, whether through social media or streaming, or interviews with the likes of CVV, or increased access to backstage scuttlebutt, kind of doesn't help with that either. Like, a deeper investment is expected of the fan, now, and that's all supposed to be taken into account when deciding whether you enjoy a talent or not. Now, that's not the case absolutely 100% of the time and you still have people in the business who damn near never break Kayfabe, but there's still overall a limited form of that "never meet your heroes" factor there.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Jul 30, 2021 8:14:20 GMT -5
Me personally, three things: 1. The Titus O'Neal suspension. 2. The Saudi deal. 3. Moving Smackdown to Fox. I'm going to explain the third one, since the first two are pretty self explanatory. I was hanging on by a thread for a while, but they announced the Fox deal, promised the show would be different, look different, be different because it was on Fox. It may have been a draft show, I don't remember what was first or second, but it quickly became the same, safe shit, with the same buzzwords, the same camera angles, the same McWrestling. I just had enough at that point, because I realized, as a fan, nothing I said or did made a difference. Yeah I hoped Fox would force some change. But I guess they either got tired of fighting Vince or figured why bother. They just took their 2 mil viewers and lived with it. I gave up on Smackdown around the Jinder reign. I had given up on Raw well before that. I watched on Hulu so it seemed anything I was interested in was edited out anyway. I kept up with NXT until the Twitch BS.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jul 30, 2021 8:25:19 GMT -5
Bringing back the Authority 6 weeks after they were vanquished at Survivor Series.
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4TheGlory
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Post by 4TheGlory on Jul 30, 2021 8:33:33 GMT -5
IF you look at the history of the WWF/E once Vince took over from his dad, I feel like this good will never really existed. Each era seemed to have some scum bag thing that occurred. From poaching talent, forcing venues and PPV providers to not allow competitors, steroids, drugs, sexual harassments, racism, tasteless angles, etc the list goes on and on. I think nostalgia plays a major role on how we look back at the company from when we were kids and they seemed like they could do no wrong, when the reality is: they've kind of always sucked and did a lot of rotten things.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Jul 30, 2021 9:12:21 GMT -5
I think I can now pinpoint it for me. And it was 2005 -2006. While my peak fandom was 1995 to 2002, I still felt excited about wrestling, even if it was starting to wane. Like between 2002 and 2004 the two most exciting matches I can recall that captured my imagination was Rock vs Hogan and the Triple Threat Match at Mania XX with Benoit winning. Those legit made me excited about wrestling.
But as also stated, 2005 and 2006 was the downfall for me, in my mind. That was also around the time I got involved with wrestling on the internet and first joined this board when it was Wrestlecrap and got into Wrestlecrap radio, when I started to get into the discontentment of the fan base. Cena and Batista were being pushed down our throats I thought. Rey Mysterio who I thought was beloved, was now also one most hated wrestlers on here and that’s when I really noticed how crap the booking was. And that WWE was no longer listening to the fans as well. Things felt hallow now. This was also around the time I was noticing independent wrestling and I got all caught up in the hype for Bryan Danielson and CM Punk being moved up to Raw and he instantly became my new favorite wrestler. So pretty much from that moment on, I pretty much was only a CM Punk fan and Daniel Bryan fan and followed what they did and followed how the WWE was getting worse and worse.
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Post by Aceorton on Jul 30, 2021 10:41:23 GMT -5
Going off the OP's guidance of actual loss of goodwill with the masses and not just a plunge in booking quality (I first lost interest in 2002 with the rebranding and draft), I'm going to agree with what others have said as far as five key mile markers over the last 10 years:
1. Bungling the gift they were handed with the Summer of Punk 2. Giving fans what they wanted with Bryan only after they began disrupting the live shows in protest, and then downgrading him while he was still the fan darling (2015 Rumble) 3. Punk's walkout/firing and his AOW interview afterward 4. Spitefully giving fans the opposite of what they wanted for YEARS (force-feeding Reigns and Lesnar, ruining popular acts like Sandow and Barrett and numerous others who got over organically) 5. Saudi Arabia nonsense
This is where you could see faith crumbling. They made moves that defied business logic, antagonized their fans and showed themselves to be real-life bad guys. And the ratings went right along with it.
EDIT: Benoit aftermath really needs to be on here, too. Their substance policies and testing were called into question, rightfully, and their defensiveness was off-putting when it was clear they didn't have their house in order. Plus, they tried to dismiss the suggestion that concussions/brain damage may have been a factor with Benoit, which we know now is almost certainly true. There was a lot of pearl-clutching "infotainment" TV around Benoit, and WWE fed right into it by making themselves look cold and negligent.
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm on Jul 30, 2021 10:53:15 GMT -5
I can't speak for everyone else, but the reveal of them covering up Ashley Massaro's sexual assault did it for me among other messed up dirty laundry airings.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 30, 2021 10:57:51 GMT -5
For me it was probably the Katie Vick angle. It was just tasteless as hell, I stopped watching for 2 years and even when I did come back it was never as good.
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Rican
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Post by Rican on Jul 30, 2021 10:58:07 GMT -5
Around the Invasion I think.
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Post by Instant Classic on Jul 30, 2021 13:45:26 GMT -5
As a fan to me around 2018-2019.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 30, 2021 13:53:59 GMT -5
For me, my interest stayed pretty steady through about 2012. I still watched regularly with the idea that they were in a long creative slump. Once Raw went to three hours, that's when watching the shows began to be a chore to watch and my interest declined precipitously.
I feel like I can recall off the top of my head who the champion is and what the main feuds are in any point in time from 1985 through about 2012-2014ish. But from 2014-15 on, it's all just a blur. To me that's the true sign of when I stopped caring.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Jul 30, 2021 14:20:07 GMT -5
IMO the bottom fell out around 2011, with them clumsily fumbling the fallout of Money in the Bank. They were freely given something that sparked some life into their product, and did everything possible to snuff it. Nothing since then has really seemed to have any genuine resonance of WWE might be getting cool and/or interesting again. This, for me at least. That could, and should have been something truly amazing. Instead, by the end of it we merely got a decent and lengthy Title run from Punk.
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Post by jason1980s on Jul 30, 2021 15:05:31 GMT -5
For me it was probably the Katie Vick angle. It was just tasteless as hell, I stopped watching for 2 years and even when I did come back it was never as good. That had me stop watching completely. I watch some sick stuff like Criminal Minds and SVU but that angle was beyond sick. You have a company and a sport that attempts to make fans think everything is real and legitimate and the main star is raping a corpse. I don't think Criminal Minds or SVU ever did anything THAT over the top but leave it to Vince McMahon and Triple H. I wound up buying some DVDs from WWE around 2005-2006 when they had a great deal with a DVD and shirt for like $25 but as I became an adult I realized this was no longer the company I loved as a kid. And like some others have said, they probably never had a good will to begin with, with the steroid scandal and sexual harassment lawsuit other issues. And it's funny how many WWE fans crap on AEW for signing recently released WWE talent. That was literally the thing WWE was doing to build their company, signing other established talent from companies, in the 1980s BUT the big difference was the other company wrestlers hadn't even been released. Not trying to be a downer, I have amazing childhood memories of so many WWF wrestlers but a few of the people in charge of WWF/WWE really are not to be admired.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Jul 30, 2021 15:31:04 GMT -5
As lame as it may seem, it’s when the indies broke through.
Think about it. Prior to the ROH/CZW/PWG/TNA/CHIKARA uprising in the mid-00’s, fan engagement with smaller independents peaked with ECW. And while with ECW, we saw a bunch of ex-WWE and ex-WCW guys, we also saw up and comers who did not fit the WWF mold. So in that sense, ECW was its own island. Guys like RVD or Sandman were ECW lifers as long as it stuck around. Some were signed like Taz and Awesome, and their booking in major promotions reaffirmed what the ECW base already thought.
Flash forward to the 2000’s. The image of many indies was fresh, upcoming talent who will make their mark one day on the big stage. Tyler Black was seen as a guaranteed hit once he left, from the day he stepped foot in ROH. People thought American Dragon, Punk, Joe, Styles, Jacobs, Strong, Richards, Homicide, Steenerico and so many others would eventually graduate from their independent days to lead the next generation of wrestling to glory. As a PWG regular, I recall there would be clear bitterness about them leaving, but their signing to a major promotion was always a moment to celebrate the hard work that got them there. SO MANY BONDS were made with these indie mainstays. Generico’s relationship with the fans was amazing. People knew and loved Danielson. CM Punk leaned into his roots when he made it because of appreciation of the fans who helped him get there with their devoted responses. And as more indies sprung up (DGUSA, EVOLVE, Brit-Wres), there was a little bit of a boom where we saw independents hit their attendance records, transition into streaming, and the whole process become accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Suddenly, you could watch the ROH show live (sometimes when GoFightLive worked) without having to wait 4 months for the DVD release. Syndication was even a thing in some cases! And I’m sure you can see where this goes next:
So many talented wrestlers, ones who formed connections with fans be it in person or online or through streaming, social media, they began to be signed to WWE or NXT. So many of these independent workers would be stripped of the very character that made them special, and instead taught the WWE style. Gone were off the cuff promos, replaced with scripts and standing awkwardly in front of monitors. Rather than a unique style, every match became 2-3 minutes of heat, thrown to the outside, commercial, return to more heat and a finishing sequence. Yeah, many old school fans thought the indies abused kick-outs, but many of the indie fans embraced wrestlers for the style. By the time they would get to WWE, it was about being safe and profiteering.
And because for many of us, this would be the first generation of seeing a guy literally start their career, hit their milestones and stand out, and have some absolute clinics that stood out in a sea of Kevin Dunn camera cuts…. Then be called up to the main roster or even NXT and mishandled. And it isn’t just ‘mishandled’, but it’s becoming victims to the criticisms of smarks that had always been online in prior times. Only now, there was little to no refuting the error existence. You can’t tell me El Generico ended up being as beloved as he was in literally every promotion. Dude wasn’t even given a shot to be him. Same with Samoa Joe in WWE. Same with Punk and Danielson. If they ever had successes, it was the result of hijacking shows to chant their names. It was the result of forcing WWE’s hand to change things up because their monotonous style actively harmed said wrestlers. And then, when Punk/Danielson/Joe were given the ball, it would be half-assed approaches. Not the HHH treatment where shows revolve around them. Not even the Brock treatment where their one segment would be hyped all night. Punk was given Del Rio. People had seen Punk grow from IWA-MS to TNA to ROH to ECW to his first failed WWE Championship run, to jobbing out to Undertaker in the Hell in a Cell opener with little fanfare. And when he finally shoves WWE into the Zeitgeist on his own, it harms McMahon so much to focus on him entirely that he needs to shift the focus elsewhere. Same with Danielson, though his concussion history makes it a bit murkier. Took him forever to finally commit to a contract. Then he comes in, is sacrificed on NXT to get heat, and still succeeds with crowds in spite of his treatment. The Wrestlemania XXX moment is still one of the few times the fans made something happen, and naturally they feed him to Kane, a guy he couldn’t have that awesome main event singles match with that every fan of him knew he was capable of. Ditto Joe. Ditto so many others. It was taking some truly special wrestlers and failing with them that exposed many eyes to WWE’s failures.
Suddenly, Ricochet signing is predicted to suck… and it does. Keith Lee signing is met with groans, and we see why. The list goes on. Scott Keith once mentioned that it takes being tall, muscular, and a full head of hair to make it in WWE, that’s it. The fact that this has always been the rule, despite dozens of examples it doesn’t need to be means there is absolutely zero point in investing in a guy anymore, especially if they declare their intention to “main event Mania” someday. The story will be the same. Show up in the NXT crowd at Takeover. Wave. Have 6-7 matches on Takeover with varying opponents. Go to RAW. Job to Elias. Defend your booking on Twitter in hopes of earning “atta boys” from management about having faith in the process. Job to Corbin. Defend booking on Twitter to own the smart marks. Chase R-Truth around backstage. Claim there’s a direction for their character. This has happened enough times to enough people that escape their WWE contracts with some reserve passion in the tank, enough to try AEW or the indies again, enough times that there’s no refuting the WWE system as poisonous for passionate wrestling fans. This goes doubly for those whose favorites from 5-6 years ago no longer do what made them your favorite. Now… they lose in 3 minutes and are rematched the next week for no reason to lose again. If they’re pushed, it lasts 3 weeks at most before they basically disappear from television.
How much does anyone want to bet Keith Lee will turn his shitty booking into the fans fault for expecting more? It happened to a bunch of people we’d least expect to hear it from. It’s my theory at least for why WWE lost their goodwill. They refused to change even when the industry did, and in some cases actively showed disdain for their audience in lieu of listening.
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Jul 30, 2021 17:10:48 GMT -5
For me it was first when the Nexus happened and Daniel Bryan got fired for the tie thing. When that angle was going down my jaw dropped and I was so happy that after all these years of mediocrity something interesting was finally happening that would change the whole WWE landscape. And Bryan as a heel as part of this was the most intriguing aspect for me, knowing he'd eventually turn and be a monster face. When he was fired it was like "ah, of course, everything has to be ruined every time."
I thought I was never going to get invested again after such a let down, but Punk the following year sucked me back in. Even bought the t-shirt. But then similarly they did the best they could to ruin that too, and that really was it for me.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 30, 2021 17:19:56 GMT -5
For me it was probably the Katie Vick angle. It was just tasteless as hell, I stopped watching for 2 years and even when I did come back it was never as good. The weirdest thing about that is still that this was Vince's attempt to tell more serious, grown-up stories with wrestling, and that he went with Kane because Kane was his favorite character. No, really, he thought this was going to be huge for Kane.
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dpg
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Post by dpg on Jul 31, 2021 2:16:09 GMT -5
Invasion being such a bodge started everything, Triple Hs reign of terror drove away a lot of fans, pipe bomb crystallised for a lot of fans their frustrations, then the never ending authority angle drove away most of what was left.
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