When Did WWE Finally Lose it’s Goodwill?

[smokinvokoun86]

Not when they went bad, but at what point did people realize that WWE was never going to get to a point where it can be consistently good? Because while the boom period ended in 2001, there had to be a point where fans were like “Hey, it’s in a slump creatively, but they know what they are doing, it will comeback.” But it never really did, especially the main roster. And eventually fans, like me; just gave up. Like i knew things weren’t the same around 2003 or 2004, and then by 2005-06, I knew it was going down hill and I was only following it for certain wrestlers.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Benoit.

[jimmyjackezekiel]

2001-2002 Basically immediately after invasion.

[Hypnosis]

The Invasion angle.

[dgenerationmc]

It's been a constant downward spiral for the past 20 years. So, I'd say it started with the Austin heel turn. When there was a definitive and visible drop? I think 2007 around the Benoit incident. Throw in the fact that the product of the late 2000s/early 2010s wasn't setting the world on fire and fan resentment was becoming more and more apparent, I'd say around that time to be safe.

[Starshine]

IMO the bottom fell out around 2011, with them clumsily fumbling the fallout of Money in the Bank. They were freely given something that sparked some life into their product, and did everything possible to snuff it. Nothing since then has really seemed to have any genuine resonance of WWE might be getting cool and/or interesting again.

[sungod2020]

I actually did a thread on this last year about the never-ending creative downturn that started on November 19th, 2001 episode of RAW. Though you can say the very roots of it was over a year earlier in the fall of 2000.

Don't get me wrong the WWF was still very profitable at the time, but with the botch Triple H/Kurt Angle/Stephanie love triangle, Rikishi being the man who ran over Austin, the move to TNN from USA, and the competition element against WCW being lost(WWF pretty much won the war at this point), it was a recipe for a gradual decline in both the fanbase and the creative direction.

I however would think by now WWF(or eventually WWE) would pull itself out of the gutter and produce quality programming, even have a boom period during that time(from early 2000s to present), maybe even two since conventional thinking back then was pro wrestling is cyclical. Unfortunately, the gap between now and when WWF/E had a boom period last is far wider than The Rock n' Wrestling and Attitude Era is.

Given how long it's been since the company was last accepted as "exciting," I can't see it recovering anytime soon.

[Mozenrath]

If I was going to point to a big difference maker, maybe CM Punk's exit.

Yeah, Benoit had been a blow, obviously, but the CM Punk interview where he laid bare a lot of the company's dirty laundry was a blow that I don't think they've ever recovered from in terms of people giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Jul 30, 2021 1:10:14 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

If I was going to point to a big difference maker, maybe CM Punk's exit.

Yeah, Benoit had been a blow, obviously, but the CM Punk interview where he laid bare a lot of the company's dirty laundry was a blow that I don't think they've ever recovered from in terms of people giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Punk's exit was also compounded with the aftermath of the Yes Movement. Even though there are people who believe that Bryan's booking was intentional build to Mania, WWE actively encouraged the perception that Bryan advanced due to fan revolt. The fact that it paralleled with so many other times when WWE didn't pay it off in the end? I think that finally broke the illusion that WWE knew what they were doing.

2011 - 2014 is a long series of events that I think finally broke any perception that WWE could get out of its rut. The rut had already lasted for a decade at that point. WWE's snuffing out of Zack Ryder and Ryback, amidst CM Punk mainstreaming complaints about the company, topped off by the blatant and clumsy attempts to cut off Daniel Bryan at the knees? WWE's problems got very visible, very quickly.

[Yamashita Enforcement Division]

CM Punk's pipebomb promo was the point of no return. You can't publicly acknowledge your faults like that without actually addressing them. Basically once that promo dropped they were a ticking time bomb until they either had to address ever point raised, or lose any credibility for "self-reflection" because they demonstrated that they knew what the issues were.

[El Pollo Guerrera]

When they started using 'entertainment' writers and not experienced wrestlers to book the shows?

[mattyy]

Jul 30, 2021 1:38:59 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

Jul 30, 2021 1:10:14 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

If I was going to point to a big difference maker, maybe CM Punk's exit.

Yeah, Benoit had been a blow, obviously, but the CM Punk interview where he laid bare a lot of the company's dirty laundry was a blow that I don't think they've ever recovered from in terms of people giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Punk's exit was also compounded with the aftermath of the Yes Movement. Even though there are people who believe that Bryan's booking was intentional build to Mania, WWE actively encouraged the perception that Bryan advanced due to fan revolt. The fact that it paralleled with so many other times when WWE didn't pay it off in the end? I think that finally broke the illusion that WWE knew what they were doing.

2011 - 2014 is a long series of events that I think finally broke any perception that WWE could get out of its rut. The rut had already lasted for a decade at that point. WWE's snuffing out of Zack Ryder and Ryback, amidst CM Punk mainstreaming complaints about the company, topped off by the blatant and clumsy attempts to cut off Daniel Bryan at the knees? WWE's problems got very visible, very quickly.

for Me, it was this ontop of the way they treated Roman Reigns in 2015. Like during the Shield, I loved him. The whole "silent killer" vibe he had was so great compared to the flashy nature of Seth and the lunatic aspect of Dean. Then they broke up the Shield and I thought he'd keep the character and it'd make him one of the best parts of the show. But then they gave him all the worst aspects of the John Cena character, and it just killed it for me. Bryan being gone, Punk complaining, and the way they handled the Shield break up. That's when they lost most of the goodwill for Me.



Then Crown Jewel happened.

[Blade]

There's no one singular moment, really, just a steady tick of people turning off for the last time.

It's not that WWE never gets anything right - even right now there's still stuff going on that has people interested (like RKBro, or Big E's push, or Lashley). Every now and then there's a show people like. But everyone has a different threshold where the good just gets so outweighed by the bad that it's not worth watching anymore. For some people that happened in 2001, for some it hasn't happened yet. For me, a few years of horrible scandals made me decide, somewhere along the line from almost killing Punk to Vince stranding his wrestlers in Saudia Arabia, that I couldn't give them money even passively anymore, so I started looking elsewhere.

[Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop]

There's no one answer. It's death by a thousand cuts.

- the WWF effectively rules wrestling as of March 2001 after buying WCW and ECW folding
- the high watermark of Wrestlemania 17
- losing the Rock to Hollywood for the first time in 2001
- most big-name WCW talents sitting out the InVasion
- the InVasion
- the creative reset to WWF TV after Survivor Series 2001
- losing the name WWF in 2002
- the hangover Attitude Era years from 2002-2005
- overpushing John Cena in 2005
- Benoit 2007
- WWE becomes the never-ending Cena/Batista/Orton/Edge show from 2007-2010
- botching CM Punk in 2011
- relying more and more on part-timers to sell Wrestlemania
- making Raw a permanent 3-hour show
- WWE dragging its feet with pushing Daniel Bryan to the main event in 2013-2014
- overpushing Roman Reigns in 2015

There's more recent stuff that could be added, but my interest in WWE slowly started to fade around 2008-2010, and I went cold turkey in early 2016.

[Mozenrath]

Jul 30, 2021 1:45:58 GMT -5 Yamashita Enforcement Division said:

CM Punk's pipebomb promo was the point of no return. You can't publicly acknowledge your faults like that without actually addressing them. Basically once that promo dropped they were a ticking time bomb until they either had to address ever point raised, or lose any credibility for "self-reflection" because they demonstrated that they knew what the issues were.

Right, which is a big part why firing Punk I think really was when a lot of people gave up on thinking of WWE in positive terms. At least with the Punk run, it looked like they were trying to do something to correct course, and then they just really showcased how little of a shit they gave.

[Bad Moon]

Jul 30, 2021 2:00:07 GMT -5 mattyy said:

Jul 30, 2021 1:38:59 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

Punk's exit was also compounded with the aftermath of the Yes Movement. Even though there are people who believe that Bryan's booking was intentional build to Mania, WWE actively encouraged the perception that Bryan advanced due to fan revolt. The fact that it paralleled with so many other times when WWE didn't pay it off in the end? I think that finally broke the illusion that WWE knew what they were doing.

2011 - 2014 is a long series of events that I think finally broke any perception that WWE could get out of its rut. The rut had already lasted for a decade at that point. WWE's snuffing out of Zack Ryder and Ryback, amidst CM Punk mainstreaming complaints about the company, topped off by the blatant and clumsy attempts to cut off Daniel Bryan at the knees? WWE's problems got very visible, very quickly.

for Me, it was this ontop of the way they treated Roman Reigns in 2015. Like during the Shield, I loved him. The whole "silent killer" vibe he had was so great compared to the flashy nature of Seth and the lunatic aspect of Dean. Then they broke up the Shield and I thought he'd keep the character and it'd make him one of the best parts of the show. But then they gave him all the worst aspects of the John Cena character, and it just killed it for me. Bryan being gone, Punk complaining, and the way they handled the Shield break up. That's when they lost most of the goodwill for Me.



Then Crown Jewel happened.

I think an underrated horrible moment during that era was the Sting Wrestlemania match, where they decided to write completely against the story they had been telling, completely neuter the big star they were banking on AND mangle the history that they were building the story on.

Sting getting bailed out by his worst enemies, losing anyway and just meekly accepting a handshake afterwards like "well played" was the moment where I realised that WWE just doesn't get wrestling and never will get it. They did everything completely backwards and wrong.

[Yamashita Enforcement Division]

Jul 30, 2021 2:15:15 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Jul 30, 2021 1:45:58 GMT -5 Yamashita Enforcement Division said:

CM Punk's pipebomb promo was the point of no return. You can't publicly acknowledge your faults like that without actually addressing them. Basically once that promo dropped they were a ticking time bomb until they either had to address ever point raised, or lose any credibility for "self-reflection" because they demonstrated that they knew what the issues were.

Right, which is a big part why firing Punk I think really was when a lot of people gave up on thinking of WWE in positive terms. At least with the Punk run, it looked like they were trying to do something to correct course, and then they just really showcased how little of a shit they gave.

I, personally, think that the Summer of Punk II angle turning into what it was, that was a more immediate sign that the words did not matter. Like there is a bunch of stuff in that 2011 to 2014 period, but it all ends up spun into the knowledge that the WWF knows what is happening is bad. They understand but are still doing it. Still stepping on the same rakes. Whichever rake was the last straw (of course, firing a dude on his wedding day after treating him horribly and then ruining his friendship with a frivolous lawsuit through a proxy is an incredibly powerful rake), if they hadn't acknowledged that they know they are there and just don't care. You could keep the faith that maybe they could right the ship.

So like I said, the pipebomb promo was a ticking time bomb for the ultimate WWF self-own. Harder than Hunter's friend mark promo even (also an incredible self own) and the we diddidn't get the elite McMahon family promo.

[The Ichi]

For me, the Saudi deal.

Most other things are just them being incompetent bookers, but *that* was the moment I decided "Okay, you assholes are never seeing a single cent from me again."

[buckethead]

All the reasons already listed...many others...but the one that really sealed the deal for me was....



"Sports entertainers"


There was no coming back from that.

When you're too afraid/ashamed to actually say what you are, you're not truly invested in what you're doing...so why should the fans be?

Cornette always liked to say, "You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube"...and maybe he's right...but they didn't even try.

They can't even call it toothpaste.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I’m really perturbed by the fact I’m now the same age or older than most of the wrestlers. I think because I started out as a fan at 6, everyone was larger than life and a character and everything was exciting, but watching guys younger than you, with just basic names and no personality to speak of by and large it takes something away.

For instance, I was never a huge New Day fan. I don’t particularly care for any of them but when they came on screen, they were larger than life and having the time of their lives and showed, so even though I don’t much like them, I was always entertained.