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Post by King Devitt: What Plants Crave on Sept 10, 2021 19:40:53 GMT -5
Let's see Jake Atlas was fired...so at least I have...... *looks around *looks around some more *looks around some more some more Anthony Bowen. Okay I at least still have someone for representation in a major company that my nephew can look up to. Outside of that I'm not qualified to speak on the subject of racial stuff, being a boring ol' white dude. I will say I hope it gets better for everyone in terms of representation. But not you lesbians you have enough! 
(btw that was a joke.
yay lesbians!) |
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Sept 10, 2021 20:05:46 GMT -5
I'm not qualified to say much on the matter either, but I will say that I hope it gets better.
On the flip side, the talent is there. Will Hobbs, Ricky Starks, Sammy Guevara, Lee Moriarty, Andrade, Dante Martin, Anthony Ogogo.
Just got to get on the ball with it.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Sept 10, 2021 20:06:57 GMT -5
I'll do the same Devils Advocate as I always do the multiple times this thread has been made. Which black wrestler should be at the top of the card based purely on their talent and not just because of their race? Dante Martin. There's no reason I've seen he couldn't be pushed like Jungle Boy. He got great reactions for his sequence with Kenny a few weeks ago. But Jungle Boy is heavily protected, and Dante can't buy a win. If we make this a fairer question of "who should be higher on the card based purely on talent", I could name a lot more. Also, pretending that there's some objective metric of talent that one can divorce from preconceptions, assumptions and implicit bias (which certainly includes things like "what do I subconsciously think a main eventer looks like") is just that, pretending. It's also ignoring that there are positive effects to having a more diverse main event which ought to be weighed against a purely rational analysis (that, again, doesn't exist) of "who deserves it most". |
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Sept 10, 2021 20:13:14 GMT -5
I strongly agree that Dante Martin should be booked more like Jungle Boy. In the matches where he's been showcased, he's looked amazing. He's at least earned that imo.
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cjb01: Limited Edition Item!
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Post by cjb01: Limited Edition Item! on Sept 10, 2021 20:17:12 GMT -5
I strongly agree that Dante Martin should be booked more like Jungle Boy. In the matches where he's been showcased, he's looked amazing. He's at least earned that imo. Dante's won quite a few matches. But him losing some makes sense... he's only 20. He should be played up that he's a super rookie with a super high ceiling. Jungle Boy's a bit older and is showing to hang more and more. I think that'll happen with Dante. More so I hope Darius comes back and shines. He tore his ACL at the worst time |
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Post by markymark on Sept 10, 2021 20:25:39 GMT -5
I'll do the same Devils Advocate as I always do the multiple times this thread has been made. Which black wrestler should be at the top of the card based purely on their talent and not just because of their race? Dante Martin. There's no reason I've seen he couldn't be pushed like Jungle Boy. He got great reactions for his sequence with Kenny a few weeks ago. But Jungle Boy is heavily protected, and Dante can't buy a win. If we make this a fairer question of "who should be higher on the card based purely on talent", I could name a lot more. Also, pretending that there's some objective metric of talent that one can divorce from preconceptions, assumptions and implicit bias (which certainly includes things like "what do I subconsciously think a main eventer looks like") is just that, pretending. It's also ignoring that there are positive effects to having a more diverse main event which ought to be weighed against a purely rational analysis (that, again, doesn't exist) of "who deserves it most". They should have Dante get some Ws on Rampage and as you said give him the JB treatment. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 10, 2021 22:03:40 GMT -5
We really always ending saying the same stuff in this topic whenever it comes back up, but it doesn't change where things stand in the industry, and that this conversation is almost always about black male talent, which makes a broad statement on lack of overall diversity more difficult to discuss since a lot of people won't see it that way given AEW's actual roster composition. But since we're here again:
The 80s/90s national expansion era for WWF and WCW saw a de-emphasis of black talent, something that had long-lasting negative repercussions that have only really seen a major reversal during the last decade, but remains an uphill climb. When the boom of black indie talent hit in the last decade, though, it did mark a positive shift, and to WWE's credit they moved quickly to sign up a ton of the most prominent black names on the scene, and nearly all of the "ready made top card" guys.
AEW seemed to respond to this by deciding to build black talent from within using their associated schools, which meant a long-haul process of allowing guys to develop, grow, and get more comfortable as fully formed versions of themselves. The main event scene was already pretty filled by largely white wrestlers because, well, again: the longstanding practices of the industry meant historic black underrepresentation, so the available established named were more likely to be white (in this case, the Elite plus Jericho and Moxley), and a lot of the black wrestlers who might've been thought of for the top of the card right away for a young company were already under contract to WWE, where most of them remain now (e.g. if Keith Lee had still been available, I have zero doubt they'd have been falling over themselves to sign him).
We can say "Impact and ROH have prominently featured black singles wrestlers", and they do (mainly Moose, Bey, Swann, and Mack in Impact, with King, Gresham, and Lethal in ROH), but of all of those guys the only one I've heard of being available at any point during AEW's first couple of years has been Moose, and he's apparently staying loyal to Impact for the time being as he even passed up a WWE offer in his latest trip to free agency. The rest are under contract to their respective companies, so no, you can't sign them. Lethal and Gresham aren't leaving ROH any time soon (Gresham is one of ROH's bookers now), and again we haven't heard about guys like Mack being available any time recently.
The "we have no idea what negotiations have looked like" part is also important when talking about younger guys like Bey in Impact or Tankman in MLW; did AEW try to sign these guys at all? None of us know one way or the other. One possibility is that they didn't, in which case that's a major whiff; another possibility is that they did, but that Bey and Tankman (just using them as two prominent examples) might've actively opted to sign with smaller TV promotions in a bid to expand their name recognition and build their brand before trying to make it with one of the bigger companies, since it'd likely significantly up their signing prices. Again, no idea on these cases.
Finally, this might just be my take on it, but no, I 100% do not think it's a good idea to put anyone in the main event of a major promotion unless the wrestler and the promotion feels that wrestler is ready for the spot, and as much as it sucks to wait for someone to get to that position, it's better than pushing someone into a spot they're not fully prepped for, not when you're a major international promotion with your eye on being the main competitor to the largest promotion on the planet. When people talk about the "big four" young guys in AEW, I'd argue that Darby and MJF showed up pretty close to finished products on day one, but it's not like Jungle Boy or Sammy are consistent main eventers now, and it's not like Darby or MJF are consistently in the World title scene yet; even with guys whose acts were so far along already, putting them there too early risks audience burnout, overexposure, or simply overshooting where a guy's at in his development. You can get away with that in a smaller or "mid-major" promotion because most of those companies don't anticipate holding onto their main event names for too long (e.g. I think Impact is fully aware Chris Bey isn't likely going to stick with them forever), but AEW is clearly building itself as a long term destination for talent that they might want to have around for over a decade, and thrusting young guys in a promotion like that straight to the top, at least when they aren't named Kazuchika Okada, can often do more long term harm than good to them.
So yeah, we have this talk all the time, but we've got the "WWE signed most of the scene" factor, the "a number of other names aren't available" factor, and the "you don't just plop someone into the main event of a promotion this size right away" factor. It doesn't make the answer of "just wait and be patient" suck less, particularly for communities that have been forced to wait for ages for any kind of decent representation in media; it absolutely does suck. But, and again I get if someone disagrees with this, I don't think that's fixed by putting someone at the top of the card when they're potentially not ready for it yet, and I don't think that given the wider diversity of AEW's roster, including a lot of its prominently featured names, that the information we have available to us bears out that there's an underlying bias against the use of wrestlers of color in highly visible positions.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Sept 10, 2021 22:44:01 GMT -5
I have to hard argue WWE blowing AEW away in terms of LGBTQ representation. One they fired Martinez and Atlas recently... and AEW just seemed to sign on Kiera Hogan to work with Diamante. Not to mention Sonny Kiss and Nyla Rose. I actually did forget about Hogan and Diamante, so you're right, they do better than I was saying. And let it be said: AEW certainly does a much better job with their presentation... not only Kiss and Rose, but also VENY, during the Japan tournament. But "maybe a hair better than the WWE" is a pretty low bar. EDIT: I think a difference is, AEW is very very good at presenting someone LGBTQ as normal and valid as they are... their queerness isn't unimportant or important, it just is. This is awesome, and a great baseline to work with. But the WWE is good at (for obviously cynical reasons) sometimes celebrating the queerness of their queer wrestlers (much as they have, either grudgingly or cynically, celebrated the blackness of their black wrestlers). That's the side of things I'd like to see from AEW, because they'd be much more genuine about it. I see the point you're making, but I do feel it's important to point out the optics that WWE fired 50% of the LGBTQ+ on the roster literally the week after Pride Month was over. |
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Sept 10, 2021 22:50:01 GMT -5
Who does WWE have on their active roster in the queer community besides Sonya Deville and Tegan Nox? Toni Storm, Shotzi Blackheart, and I'm sure many others. Doudrop Franky Monet |
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Post by Starshine on Sept 11, 2021 1:18:59 GMT -5
I think booking a main event scene to fill a race quote is an idea set to fail, and to justify that point I will use the example of Jinder Mahal.
If guys like Lee Moriarty, Will Hobbs, Dante Martin, and whoever else, can reach the potential most of us believe they can, then I'm all for pushing them all the way to the top. But until then, I don't think AEW should risk sacrificing what's very successful now, and also potentially poising the well on these guys, when tomorrow they might fill those slots without question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 2:39:14 GMT -5
I’d pay $100 to see Will Hobbs and Calvin Tankman beat the shit out of each other.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 11, 2021 3:12:31 GMT -5
Yep, it hasn't. And I have to say something kinda controversial about that. The guy they wanted to push into that role was mid, and I think that didn't help matters. Scorpio Sky was not the guy to push into a main event scene. Hobbs I'm hoping will get there. Both Lees too, though I'm leaning on Moriarty way more. And though he's in a stable with a guy people THOUGHT was black, Ricky Starks is actually mixed and definitely should be main eventing by next year. As for people they can get and have them start main eventing? Chris Bey, IMO. They got to take him from Impact. Yeah, Cody definitely wanted Bey and narrowly missed him when Impact got him first, so I could definitely see them making a play for him when they can. |
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Sept 11, 2021 3:19:06 GMT -5
Toni Storm, Shotzi Blackheart, and I'm sure many others. Doudrop Franky Monet Shayna Bazler and Dakota Kai (I don't think she's outright said it, but last year started wearing a gear set with a pansexual pride color scheme and pride flag on the trunks). |
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Post by Viking Hall on Sept 11, 2021 4:42:21 GMT -5
Just in case I was giving the wrong impression earlier in the thread, which was very much not my intention, I'd just like to give a shout out to some independent wrestlers who represent minorities (both ethnically and sexually) who I would eventually like to get a shot on a bigger stage.
AJ Gray
AR Fox
Bad Dude Tito
Billy Dixon
Bryan Keith
Dark Sheik
Devon Monroe
Edith Surreal
Effy
Frontman Jah
Holidead
Hoodfoot
Jake Atlas
Jamie Senegal
Ken Broadway
PB Smooth
Tre Lamar
Trish Adora
Willow Nightingale
Yoya
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cjb01: Limited Edition Item!
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Post by cjb01: Limited Edition Item! on Sept 11, 2021 5:42:22 GMT -5
Just in case I was giving the wrong impression earlier in the thread, which was very much not my intention, I'd just like to give a shout out to some independent wrestlers who represent minorities (both ethnically and sexually) who I would eventually like to get a shot on a bigger stage. AJ Gray AR Fox Bad Dude Tito Billy Dixon Bryan Keith Dark Sheik Devon Monroe Edith Surreal Effy Frontman Jah Holidead Hoodfoot Jake Atlas Jamie Senegal Ken Broadway PB Smooth Tre Lamar Trish Adora Willow Nightingale Yoya Legitimately shocks me no one has taken a look at AR Fox. Like literally any of the bigger promotions. I know he's done some weird shit in the past but that guy was such a talent and frankly still is. He's not that old and he's in amazing shape. |
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Post by Cieto on Sept 11, 2021 6:13:51 GMT -5
I gotta agree, but im also willing to give AEW time.
As a black man, representation is very important to me, not just for people of black origin either. I look at the roster as a whole and even down to the talent pool at Dark/elevation level its very diverse.
On the other hand I also believe whoever is put in that position, regardless of race has to be ready.
Closest I'd say at the moment is Jade, who gets better every time I see her perform. Then possibly Andrade once the title picture switches from omega.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 6:20:33 GMT -5
Honest question.
Do you think someone should be put in the main event because of their skin color?
Right now, I'm not seeing any black wrestlers in AEW who I would consider main event quality. Maybe Scorpio Sky after a push. But then... Who? Powerhouse Hobbs? It's way too early for him right now but maybe after some build.
Unless they get Keith Lee, Ricochet or someone like that then the main event scene is where it should be right now in my opinion.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 11, 2021 6:34:53 GMT -5
Honest question. Do you think someone should be put in the main event because of their skin color? Right now, I'm not seeing any black wrestlers in AEW who I would consider main event quality. Maybe Scorpio Sky after a push. But then... Who? Powerhouse Hobbs? It's way too early for him right now but maybe after some build. Unless they get Keith Lee, Ricochet or someone like that then the main event scene is where it should be right now in my opinion. I don’t think it’s people saying “push so and so because he’s black”. Not speaking for others, particularly given my lack of melanin, but while I think implying that AEW has an implicit bias against black performers being in big spots is wrong, I don’t fault anyone for still wanting to see that representation and for feeling frustration at hearing “just wait longer”. Not for nothing, but “just wait” is something groups like the black community in America have been told for ages about a whole range of things (including things much more significant in the grand scheme than wrestling), and I’m sure that adds up for people. ETA: Out of curiosity, does anyone know Ricky Starks’ background? I see him being brought up in the thread, and he’d absolutely be seen as a person of color by most Americans, but I genuinely don’t know what his cultural background is. |
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Post by Viking Hall on Sept 11, 2021 6:42:45 GMT -5
Honest question. Do you think someone should be put in the main event because of their skin color? Right now, I'm not seeing any black wrestlers in AEW who I would consider main event quality. Maybe Scorpio Sky after a push. But then... Who? Powerhouse Hobbs? It's way too early for him right now but maybe after some build. Unless they get Keith Lee, Ricochet or someone like that then the main event scene is where it should be right now in my opinion. I don’t think it’s people saying “push so and so because he’s black”. Not speaking for others, particularly given my lack of melanin, but while I think implying that AEW has an implicit bias against black performers being in big spots is wrong, I don’t fault anyone for still wanting to see that representation and for feeling frustration at hearing “just wait longer”. Not for nothing, but “just wait” is something groups like the black community in America have been told for ages about a whole range of things (including things much more significant in the grand scheme than wrestling), and I’m sure that adds up for people. ETA: Out of curiosity, does anyone know Ricky Starks’ background? I see him being brought up in the thread, and he’d absolutely be seen as a person of color by most Americans, but I genuinely don’t know what his cultural background is. From the last time this came up I think he was said to be mixed race (black/white) but I'm not entirely sure. Personally I think he's the lovechild of The Rock. |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Sept 11, 2021 7:10:40 GMT -5
I'm a fan of "Bad Dude Tito" already just based on the name
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