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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 23, 2021 13:24:28 GMT -5
Christian wasn’t buried when Orton beat him for the title
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 23, 2021 13:29:44 GMT -5
That CM Punk's pipebomb brought back a ton of lapsed fans or did great business.
Ratings didn't improve at all in the following weeks. MITB had less buys than Extreme Rules with Miz/Morrison in the main event with Cena and Summerslam had one of it's worst buyrates ever. Like "summer of Punk" is the one that gets the fancy name but Nexus/Cena in 2010 and Lesnar/HHH in 2012 were hotter summer storylines, numbers wise.
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Post by greyfmdan on Dec 23, 2021 13:45:22 GMT -5
I take your word for it. I just can’t remember a lick of it. 😂 They totally mentioned it every week, played the clip loads, one of the people on Bob's path of destruction was his manager Arnold Skaaland for throwing in the towel, that's why there was that special stipulation at Survivor Series, it's the finish of Bob losing to Sheiky. I do remember some of the Skaaland & Sheik references from more recent rewatching. But as a kid at the time who knew basically nothing of wrestling pre-Hogan, I had no frame of reference for Skaaland, Sheik, or Backland’s previous title run. Whatever his accomplishments in the past, he seemed at that point like a washed up old guy who was out of his league taking on Bret. I still maintain that WWF did a poor job of educating us young fans who knew nothing pre-Hogan, about what a threat Backland was supposed to be. Largely it was of their own doing, IMO, since they essentially treated anything pre-Hogan as ancient history. But it served the purpose, & may have been by design—the older fans knew Backland’s history & what he was capable of, whereas for us younger fans who didn’t have that frame of reference, his win over Bret came off as a legitimate shock.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 23, 2021 13:48:48 GMT -5
They totally mentioned it every week, played the clip loads, one of the people on Bob's path of destruction was his manager Arnold Skaaland for throwing in the towel, that's why there was that special stipulation at Survivor Series, it's the finish of Bob losing to Sheiky. I do remember some of the Skaaland & Sheik references from more recent rewatching. But as a kid at the time who knew basically nothing of wrestling pre-Hogan, I had no frame of reference for Skaaland, Sheik, or Backland’s previous title run. Whatever his accomplishments in the past, he seemed at that point like a washed up old guy who was out of his league taking on Bret. I still maintain that WWF did a poor job of educating us young fans who knew nothing pre-Hogan, about what a threat Backland was supposed to be. Largely it was of their own doing, IMO, since they essentially treated anything pre-Hogan as ancient history. But it served the purpose, & may have been by design—the older fans knew Backland’s history & what he was capable of, whereas for us younger fans who didn’t have that frame of reference, his win over Bret came off as a legitimate shock. Oh yeah, it didn't help he'd been back as a lower midcarder who was devoid of, well, anything, for almost 2 years at that point. If he'd come back fresh like a month or 2 before with hype packages, but he'd been a loser for so long it might as well have been Virgil at the start, they made a lot of work for themselves.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Dec 23, 2021 13:54:43 GMT -5
![](https://stillrealtous.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bobby-heenan-1280x720.jpg) "The only friends Pee Wee ever had were those puppets in his Playhouse." Omg, I’m howling. Damn auto-correct!
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Dec 23, 2021 13:59:31 GMT -5
“Bobby Herman ruined the Hogan heel turn by asking what side he’s on.” The way this small, off-the-cuff remark that barely anyone even thought about at the time has been phrased as this major botch really bugs me. Same, it infuriates me, but I'm glad the internet in 2021 mostly seems to have come back around that had Heenan *not* said that and suddenly cheered Hulk, that *that* would have actually been a botch/blunder/spoiler.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 23, 2021 14:06:36 GMT -5
That CM Punk's pipebomb brought back a ton of lapsed fans or did great business. Ratings didn't improve at all in the following weeks. MITB had less buys than Extreme Rules with Miz/Morrison in the main event with Cena and Summerslam had one of it's worst buyrates ever. Like "summer of Punk" is the one that gets the fancy name but Nexus/Cena in 2010 and Lesnar/HHH in 2012 were hotter summer storylines, numbers wise. As a lapsed fan, I watched the pipe bomb on youtube and thought "What's the big deal?"
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 23, 2021 14:22:40 GMT -5
Therein was the problem: they literally tried to make him Hulk Hogan, and assume the USA gimmick on its own would make the fans accept him as such. He didn’t have the intangibles that made Hogan the biggest name in wrestling for a decade. Thing is, they made him MORE cheesy than Hogan ever was. First off, Hogan might have waved the flag, he never used it as gear, then there was the stuff like the terrible "Happy Holidays from the Lugars" with them all wearing cheesy xmas sweaters, Lex clearly faking it. Hogan was always big, bombastic, looking to defend people etc. I've felt like the "DIE ROCKY DIE" story (when he was still Rocky the blue chipper) has been grossly over exaggerated almost to the level of "And then DX showed up with a Tank and killed WCW" In my opinion, a lot of people just didn't care about the dude. He didn't connect at all with the audience. There might have been a small handful of people that actively hated him and had a couple signs, but the vast overall fan reaction to him was "whatever he's lame". Much more "piss break dude" than "we actively hate this dude" heat. Although now that I've said it, it's probably more the WWE blowing it out of proportion rather than the IWC doing it. There was probably A sign that said it, so this is more of a "Cane Dewey" thing, taking 1 random bit that's catchy and memorable and making it part of your reasoning. I take your word for it. I just can’t remember a lick of it. 😂 They totally mentioned it every week, played the clip loads, one of the people on Bob's path of destruction was his manager Arnold Skaaland for throwing in the towel, that's why there was that special stipulation at Survivor Series, it's the finish of Bob losing to Sheiky. The video wall showed Backlund in the Camel Clutch/towel throw during the first few of his ring entrances as a heel
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 23, 2021 14:23:51 GMT -5
Trish v Lita being the first women’s main event on Raw. Both WWE and the IWC usually go with this. Lita v Stephanie main evented Raw over 4 years earlier though.
The narrative around Rey Mysterio losing the WWE title the night he won it in 2011. How many times have you seen it described as like Rey won the title in a hard fought match then Cena was a dick and challenged him immediately afterwards? That's not what happened at all. This episode of Raw was the first after Vince was "relieved of his duties" by HHH. HHH wanted a huge main event for his first show and booked Cena/Rey. Neither challenged the other. And Rey had a 7 minute match with Miz at the beginning of the show then wrestled in the main event almost 2 hours later. Guys did double duty on Raw a lot during that 2011-13 era (and still do now). It was nothing unusual. It wasn't presented at all as poor Rey is already beat up from a gruelling match. Another one I see a lot is “Rey got screwed over and then never even got a rematch”. He did. They announced he would get his rematch on Raw the night after Summerslam against the winner of Punk/Cena. Del Rio ended up as champion instead obviously and beat Rey on Raw and kayfabe broke his arm since he was going to be out for a year.
The Beth Phoenix “but Hunter, we’re girls” promo. It wasn't her being terrified and looking weak. She was a bitch heel clearly being sarcastic and trying to get the babyface authority figure fired.
Goldberg couldn't get revenge on the NWO after the fingerpoke because he got injured after punching out the limo window. I've seen this one a lot. The limo incident happened a year later though.
Another fingerpoke of doom related one. The idea that Kevin Nash being the person ending the streak was a terrible decision. He was as good a choice as any. He was the most popular babyface in the company and was long overdue a world title push after spending 2 years mostly as a tag guy. The crowd at Starrcade was more for Nash than Goldberg. There were Goldberg sucks chants and Nash got a massive pop for winning. Everyone talks about how it hurt Goldberg but look at how Nash got screwed over. He finally gets a big singles win and he can't even do it clean then a week later he lays down and hands the world title to Hogan. All this less than a year after they went through a big break up because he was sick of playing second fiddle and following Hogan's orders. He was a super hot babyface and they just reverted him back to his second in command NWO spot. In fact in less than 2 years they turned him like crazy. He went from face to heel (Jan 99) to face (Apr/May 99) to heel (July 99) to face (early 2000) to heel (August 2000) to face (October 2000).
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 23, 2021 14:29:31 GMT -5
“Bobby Herman ruined the Hogan heel turn by asking what side he’s on.” The way this small, off-the-cuff remark that barely anyone even thought about at the time has been phrased as this major botch really bugs me. Same, it infuriates me, but I'm glad the internet in 2021 mostly seems to have come back around that had Heenan *not* said that and suddenly cheered Hulk, that *that* would have actually been a botch/blunder/spoiler. I mean there is a middle-ground here. Don't step on the drama of the biggest moment your company will ever have, but also don't fervently cheer Hogan. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him!" That actually sets up Heenan moments later where he insists he never trusted Hogan and told-ya-so but everyone remembers the cowarldly ol' weasel really was tricked along with everyone else. And yes, I definitely recall, at the time, people saying his comment kept them from finding the turn as shocking as they would otherwise.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Dec 23, 2021 14:47:43 GMT -5
Same, it infuriates me, but I'm glad the internet in 2021 mostly seems to have come back around that had Heenan *not* said that and suddenly cheered Hulk, that *that* would have actually been a botch/blunder/spoiler. I mean there is a middle-ground here. Don't step on the drama of the biggest moment your company will ever have, but also don't fervently cheer Hogan. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him!" That actually sets up Heenan moments later where he insists he never trusted Hogan and told-ya-so but everyone remembers the cowarldly ol' weasel really was tricked along with everyone else. And yes, I definitely recall, at the time, people saying his comment kept them from finding the turn as shocking as they would otherwise. No, anyone saying the comment stifled the shock was not a WCW viewer at the time. The previous six months had Heenan selling out WCW to New Japan setting up Starrcade the previous year and had him casting doubt on Hogan's moral fiber in every big match as the "Dark side of Hulkamania" was explored. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him" would be a complete 180 from every facet we've had of Heenan's on-screen character in WCW by that point and would have been a MUCH bigger giveaway. "But whose side is he on" is perfect. I spent this year rewatching all of 1996 WCW on its 25th anniversary so it's very fresh in my mind. Heenan's character had no loyalty or reason to cheer for WCW by that July.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 23, 2021 15:06:53 GMT -5
Another fingerpoke of doom related one. The idea that Kevin Nash being the person ending the streak was a terrible decision. He was as good a choice as any. He was the most popular babyface in the company and was long overdue a world title push after spending 2 years mostly as a tag guy. The crowd at Starrcade was more for Nash than Goldberg. There were Goldberg sucks chants and Nash got a massive pop for winning. Everyone talks about how it hurt Goldberg but look at how Nash got screwed over. He finally gets a big singles win and he can't even do it clean then a week later he lays down and hands the world title to Hogan. All this less than a year after they went through a big break up because he was sick of playing second fiddle and following Hogan's orders. He was a super hot babyface and they just reverted him back to his second in command NWO spot. In fact in less than 2 years they turned him like crazy. He went from face to heel (Jan 99) to face (Apr/May 99) to heel (July 99) to face (early 2000) to heel (August 2000) to face (October 2000). Oh 100%. Nash in his own words says that he "looked like the biggest douchebag of all" coming out of the fingerpoke
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 23, 2021 16:17:59 GMT -5
Chris Jericho restraining an angry Goldberg I can buy. Chris Jericho kicking his ass is a stretch. An older Chris Jericho doing the same to Lesnar years later? Now we're getting silly.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Dec 23, 2021 16:35:08 GMT -5
Vince caters to himself and only himself.
I really don’t think he feels that way. He’s just looking for guys who fit into his style that was so successful and the most mainstream. He’s lost sight how to do that properly BUT I don’t think he only makes moves based on his own entertainment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2021 17:03:32 GMT -5
HHH buried London and Kendrick by Pedrigeeing them after they helped him.
Honestly it made complete sense for HHH's character to do that.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 23, 2021 17:16:23 GMT -5
I mean there is a middle-ground here. Don't step on the drama of the biggest moment your company will ever have, but also don't fervently cheer Hogan. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him!" That actually sets up Heenan moments later where he insists he never trusted Hogan and told-ya-so but everyone remembers the cowarldly ol' weasel really was tricked along with everyone else. And yes, I definitely recall, at the time, people saying his comment kept them from finding the turn as shocking as they would otherwise. No, anyone saying the comment stifled the shock was not a WCW viewer at the time. The previous six months had Heenan selling out WCW to New Japan setting up Starrcade the previous year and had him casting doubt on Hogan's moral fiber in every big match as the "Dark side of Hulkamania" was explored. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him" would be a complete 180 from every facet we've had of Heenan's on-screen character in WCW by that point and would have been a MUCH bigger giveaway. "But whose side is he on" is perfect. I spent this year rewatching all of 1996 WCW on its 25th anniversary so it's very fresh in my mind. Heenan's character had no loyalty or reason to cheer for WCW by that July. Dude, I saw people saying it in newsgroups and contemporary web reviews with my own eyes but whatever. I am 100% confident a professional broadcaster like Bobby Heenan could have found a way to remain in character while simultaneously not stepping on the drama of the biggest heel turn of all time.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Dec 23, 2021 17:41:12 GMT -5
No, anyone saying the comment stifled the shock was not a WCW viewer at the time. The previous six months had Heenan selling out WCW to New Japan setting up Starrcade the previous year and had him casting doubt on Hogan's moral fiber in every big match as the "Dark side of Hulkamania" was explored. "I can't believe I would ever be happy to see him" would be a complete 180 from every facet we've had of Heenan's on-screen character in WCW by that point and would have been a MUCH bigger giveaway. "But whose side is he on" is perfect. I spent this year rewatching all of 1996 WCW on its 25th anniversary so it's very fresh in my mind. Heenan's character had no loyalty or reason to cheer for WCW by that July. Dude, I saw people saying it in newsgroups and contemporary web reviews with my own eyes but whatever. I am 100% confident a professional broadcaster like Bobby Heenan could have found a way to remain in character while simultaneously not stepping on the drama of the biggest heel turn of all time. You may be misremembering, it happens to us all. Heenan didn't in any way step on the drama. Saying "i never thought I'd be happy to see Hulk" would have been a DEAD GIVEAWAY. The guy with, at that point, over a decade of distrusting Hogan and had seven on-air months of selling out WCW himself. It would have been a total betrayal to his character and signaled way more that something was up. The audience who only watched WWF and tuned into Bash at the Beach just to see Hall and Nash and/or the people reading the dirt sheets who were anticipating it being Hogan from the jump *maybe* put two-and-two together, but to suggest Heenan "Stepped on the drama" in absolutely ANY way is - as the thread title suggests, a false narrative.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 23, 2021 17:44:32 GMT -5
Another fingerpoke of doom related one. The idea that Kevin Nash being the person ending the streak was a terrible decision. He was as good a choice as any. He was the most popular babyface in the company and was long overdue a world title push after spending 2 years mostly as a tag guy. The crowd at Starrcade was more for Nash than Goldberg. There were Goldberg sucks chants and Nash got a massive pop for winning. Everyone talks about how it hurt Goldberg but look at how Nash got screwed over. He finally gets a big singles win and he can't even do it clean then a week later he lays down and hands the world title to Hogan. All this less than a year after they went through a big break up because he was sick of playing second fiddle and following Hogan's orders. He was a super hot babyface and they just reverted him back to his second in command NWO spot. In fact in less than 2 years they turned him like crazy. He went from face to heel (Jan 99) to face (Apr/May 99) to heel (July 99) to face (early 2000) to heel (August 2000) to face (October 2000). Oh 100%. Nash in his own words says that he "looked like the biggest douchebag of all" coming out of the fingerpoke Yeah, Nash was big time over People always accused Nash of booking himself to win but I believe he said on Broken Skull sessions he would have wanted to beat Goldberg a few more times instead of dropping the title to Hogan like he did
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 23, 2021 18:10:11 GMT -5
Heenan was pretty inconsistent when the whole nwo angle kicked off, and so it's not surprising that people would be divided over some of his comments. One time he was on board with WCW lamenting what would become of the company with the NWO around. The next time he was making comments like "I don't care who wins" during the Sting/Luger vs. Outsiders match at Hog Wild and dropping provocative little comments and then retracting them when Schiavone called him out on it. It's not surprising, given that he was a heel commentator and suddenly the whole babyface/heel dynamic was turned on its head. There were WCW babyfaces, WCW heels who became babyfaces when the NWO was around, and then the NWO who was trying to become the true heel alignment but ended up becoming the cool heels instead. It was a huge mess, and Heenan didn't care as much about being consistent as he cared about being provocative and trolling his broadcast partners.
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Post by Dub H on Dec 23, 2021 18:11:25 GMT -5
HHH buried London and Kendrick by Pedrigeeing them after they helped him. Honestly it made complete sense for HHH's character to do that. It making sense he would do that doesnt mean he didnt bury then.Both things can be true
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