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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 23, 2021 20:22:25 GMT -5
Chris Jericho restraining an angry Goldberg I can buy. Chris Jericho kicking his ass is a stretch. An older Chris Jericho doing the same to Lesnar years later? Now we're getting silly. I never heard that he even got into it physically with Lesnar. The version I remember being reported was that Jericho got in his face and Lesnar just blew past him.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 23, 2021 22:08:15 GMT -5
Regarding Luger; besides not even being close to Hogan in terms of charisma, by that point, Vince misunderstood that the Hogan/American stuff was just a small part of the Hogan experience; it wasn't supposed to be the main feature. Yeah, he beat Iron Sheik, but his best feuds were vs Piper, Orndorff, Andre, and Savage. The Slaughter stuff died a death(probably would have been better if they booked pre GI Joe heel Slaughter vs Hogan). But by the Luger turn, Vince was so into the US vs the World stuff that he turned Luger into Uncle Sam, and killed any chance he had.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 24, 2021 5:14:39 GMT -5
As discussed in another thread, "Dusty Rhodes was a joke in the WWF." No, he wasn't. The polka dots may have been silly, but they didn't hurt him, and the "Common Man" was arguably the #3 babyface behind Hogan and Warrior. His main programs were with Boss Man, Savage, and Dibiase. It's not like they had him struggling with Dino Bravo and Greg Valentine every night. No disrespect to those guys, but they were clearly lower on the card. Dusty was absolutely the number 3 babyface. Hogan, Warrior, Dusty, and Dibiase were the only guys to captain Survivor Series teams in both 1989 and 1990. That's a big indicator of your spot on the card. Up until that Dibiase feud, when Vince likely already knew Dusty was leaving to go to WCW in a non-wrestling role, Dusty was very well protected. And got some big wins. Getting a pinfall win over heel Big Bossman on PPV might not sound like much, but even Hogan didn't get a pinfall win over Bossman on national TV. I think a narrative that I see that I would consider false is the level of staleness of babyface Hulk Hogan in WCW prior to the NWO. Creatively, it might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but Hogan's arrival really ramped up WCW's business and they were breaking all kinds of gate and PPV revenue records. A lot of us hardcore fans might have preferred WCW before Hogan came in, but a hell of a lot more people were tuning in to watch Hogan and friends battle the Faces of Fear than were to see Vader vs Sting or Flair vs Steamboat Part IV. I don't know if I would say for sure if he was the #3 face with how stacked the face roster was in 89-90. He was definitely up there but while Hogan and Warrior were definitely 1A and 1B, after them along with Dusty during that period you also had Beefcake, Jake, Duggan, Boss Man after he turned, Piper, and Tornado all of whom were also very protected and very over. I guess he might have been briefly #3 in late 89 and early 90 but I would say by summer 90 he was definitely below all of them in the pecking order (sans Beefcake who was sidelined after his parasailing accident and Piper who was doing commentary) and probably #5 at best. Also Dusty while he was one of the few to get captain spots in both 89 and 90 he also really wasn't marketed that much in that he wasn't on many of the posters for big shows or featured in the video games which was also another indicator as in to who they considered a big deal as in those early game days only 6-12 wrestlers would be featured in them. Unlike Dusty; Boss Man, Jake, Beefcake, and Duggan were featured in those around that period whether it be Superstars, Wrestlefest, or Wrestlemania Challenge.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 24, 2021 9:46:10 GMT -5
Batista didn't have an affair with Melina. This one keeps getting spread around because of the TV angle, and that he's said before he had a fling with Rosa Mendes, but he called her by her real name Milena Roucka. Batista definitely had a thing with Melina (Perez) for a while. He talks about it in his book. I don't know if it was an affair though. Melina and Morrison might not have been together at the time. It wasn't an affair, they were broken up at the time. Toxic masculinity being what it is, Morrison got ragged on by everyone for getting back with her afterwards because 2000s WWE backstage culture was a cesspool.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 24, 2021 14:52:14 GMT -5
“Bobby Herman ruined the Hogan heel turn by asking what side he’s on.” The way this small, off-the-cuff remark that barely anyone even thought about at the time has been phrased as this major botch really bugs me. Same, it infuriates me, but I'm glad the internet in 2021 mostly seems to have come back around that had Heenan *not* said that and suddenly cheered Hulk, that *that* would have actually been a botch/blunder/spoiler. Even if Heeenan had turned neutral/face leaning and Hogan remained red-and-yellow, it would have still been a massive stretch for me to buy into him suddenly becoming a Hogan booster. It even made more sense to me when Lawler had his face runs on commentary because he came off mostly like a corporate suckup who felt Mr. McMahon knew best. Bobby had too many clients he tried to make world champion that Hogan defeated (sometimes by questionable means as he definitely was more of a “chaotic good” babyface as previously mentioned) for all of that bad blood to just go away.
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Post by ianriccaboni on Dec 24, 2021 15:35:18 GMT -5
Luger winning the title at WMX being axed due to... telling people he was going to win, ya know, something any wrestler would do when talking to fans or media.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 24, 2021 15:50:39 GMT -5
I think Nash beating Goldberg at Starrcade was the right move at the time. Goldberg had a long enough reign with the WCW Championship and the mystique of the winning streak was starting to peter out. But the way it all went down was just your typical WCW overbooking. And of course it looks retroactively terrible because of the Fingerpoke of Doom. I thought the story to tell there was a conflicted face Nash torn between his leadership of the Wolfpac and fans loving him and wanting to reform The Outsiders with Scott Hall. Maybe even trying to get Hall himself to turn against Hogan and join him in the Wolfpac. But dropping the title to Hogan one week later in a complete farce just killed that.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 24, 2021 19:42:10 GMT -5
Luger winning the title at WMX being axed due to... telling people he was going to win, ya know, something any wrestler would do when talking to fans or media. Yeah, it's such a gibberish story. I am not sure why people latched onto it. Maybe due to questioning the "why" of not cashing in, or people having distaste for Luger later and it making them prefer a version of events that's his fault.
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Jake, The Jake, Jake
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Post by Jake, The Jake, Jake on Dec 24, 2021 21:50:13 GMT -5
“Bobby Herman ruined the Hogan heel turn by asking what side he’s on.” The way this small, off-the-cuff remark that barely anyone even thought about at the time has been phrased as this major botch really bugs me. That's not completely true. The line has been removed from replays on occasion. by cowards
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 24, 2021 22:03:16 GMT -5
I think he's been rehabilitated a bit in recent years but Luger got way too much flack as a worker back in the day. He was in no way a workhorse or anything but you don't get over with the crowd everywhere you go across a decade of time if you're not talented. He was certainly easily mockable, I get that. But he got work for a reason and could go when needed.
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Post by Hypnosis on Dec 24, 2021 22:29:24 GMT -5
I think he's been rehabilitated a bit in recent years but Luger got way too much flack as a worker back in the day. He was in no way a workhorse or anything but you don't get over with the crowd everywhere you go across a decade of time if you're not talented. He was certainly easily mockable, I get that. But he got work for a reason and could go when needed. He did put a lot of effort into selling. "OOOOOF!"
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Dec 24, 2021 22:41:55 GMT -5
Regarding Luger; besides not even being close to Hogan in terms of charisma, by that point, Vince misunderstood that the Hogan/American stuff was just a small part of the Hogan experience; it wasn't supposed to be the main feature. Yeah, he beat Iron Sheik, but his best feuds were vs Piper, Orndorff, Andre, and Savage. The Slaughter stuff died a death(probably would have been better if they booked pre GI Joe heel Slaughter vs Hogan). But by the Luger turn, Vince was so into the US vs the World stuff that he turned Luger into Uncle Sam, and killed any chance he had. Pile on top of that that it was 93, and being super patriotic was starting to be seen as cheesy and status quo. Leading into why Stone Cold was successful on the other hand.
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tafkaga
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 24, 2021 23:41:30 GMT -5
I think he's been rehabilitated a bit in recent years but Luger got way too much flack as a worker back in the day. He was in no way a workhorse or anything but you don't get over with the crowd everywhere you go across a decade of time if you're not talented. He was certainly easily mockable, I get that. But he got work for a reason and could go when needed. He did put a lot of effort into selling. "OOOOOF!" Luger punches a dude "OOOOF!" Luger takes a punch "OOOOF!" Luger delivers a suplex "OOOOF!" Luger takes a piledriver "OOOOF!"
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Ozman
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Post by Ozman on Dec 25, 2021 0:24:22 GMT -5
Eric Bischoff was a booker for AWA in its dying days and came up with the Team Challenge Series. It took Bischoff's book to kill that narrative. I remember RD Reynolds pushing this narrative hard that Bischoff was the guy that single-handedly killed the AWA with the Team Challenge series. Bischoff also had to debunk this rumor on the WWE’s AWA DVD, when Greg Gagne admitted that he came up with the idea for the Team Challenge Series.
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Post by Edge of Insanity on Dec 25, 2021 7:18:40 GMT -5
Dusty was absolutely the number 3 babyface. Hogan, Warrior, Dusty, and Dibiase were the only guys to captain Survivor Series teams in both 1989 and 1990. That's a big indicator of your spot on the card. Up until that Dibiase feud, when Vince likely already knew Dusty was leaving to go to WCW in a non-wrestling role, Dusty was very well protected. And got some big wins. Getting a pinfall win over heel Big Bossman on PPV might not sound like much, but even Hogan didn't get a pinfall win over Bossman on national TV. I think a narrative that I see that I would consider false is the level of staleness of babyface Hulk Hogan in WCW prior to the NWO. Creatively, it might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but Hogan's arrival really ramped up WCW's business and they were breaking all kinds of gate and PPV revenue records. A lot of us hardcore fans might have preferred WCW before Hogan came in, but a hell of a lot more people were tuning in to watch Hogan and friends battle the Faces of Fear than were to see Vader vs Sting or Flair vs Steamboat Part IV. I don't know if I would say for sure if he was the #3 face with how stacked the face roster was in 89-90. He was definitely up there but while Hogan and Warrior were definitely 1A and 1B, after them along with Dusty during that period you also had Beefcake, Jake, Duggan, Boss Man after he turned, Piper, and Tornado all of whom were also very protected and very over. I guess he might have been briefly #3 in late 89 and early 90 but I would say by summer 90 he was definitely below all of them in the pecking order (sans Beefcake who was sidelined after his parasailing accident and Piper who was doing commentary) and probably #5 at best. Also Dusty while he was one of the few to get captain spots in both 89 and 90 he also really wasn't marketed that much in that he wasn't on many of the posters for big shows or featured in the video games which was also another indicator as in to who they considered a big deal as in those early game days only 6-12 wrestlers would be featured in them. Unlike Dusty; Boss Man, Jake, Beefcake, and Duggan were featured in those around that period whether it be Superstars, Wrestlefest, or Wrestlemania Challenge. Dusty was also in his mid 40s when he was in the wwe, and at the end of his career. So the idea he should have been a top star is a reach in my opinion. Had it been 10 years earlier I can see if people thought he was being buried with the polka dots. But at this stage in his career, it wasnt a big deal.
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Post by Edge of Insanity on Dec 25, 2021 7:20:36 GMT -5
The idea that the red rooster killed Terry Taylor's career and made him a joke. Personally, I think it's the fact that he's a giant tool and stooge and most people in the business can't stand him is why his career wasn't what it could have been.
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Post by sungod2020 on Dec 25, 2021 11:35:10 GMT -5
Here's another false narrative: WWF ruined The Sheepherders by making them a comedy act. While it's true the now Bushwhackers weren't these hardcore specialists who struck fear in their opponents eyes anymore, you have to take into consideration a)they were in their 40s, b)the tag team division at the time was stacked, and c)it brought them more money and Nationwide exposure.
Sure, they weren't "taken seriously" like they were in the Indies, but I find it alot better to have a 5 minute piss break of a match, then to have my face grated in barbed wire in a dying promotion.
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Post by ianriccaboni on Dec 25, 2021 11:43:09 GMT -5
Here's another false narrative: WWF ruined The Sheepherders by making them a comedy act. While it's true the now Bushwhackers weren't these hardcore specialists who struck fear in their opponents eyes anymore, you have to take into consideration a)they were in their 40s, b)the tag team division at the time was stacked, and c)it brought them more money and Nationwide exposure. Sure, they weren't "taken seriously" like they were in the Indies, but I find it alot better to have a 5 minute piss break of a match, then to have my face grated in barbed wire in a dying promotion. Also, on top of this, which is huge, Luke will tell you straight up: because of this, they got to be on network TV more than once in non-wrestling show shows, go to the White House, do tons of charity work, and make enough money in their run to set them for life and still be recognizable to more casual fans. It's really hard to argue that giving up 20 years of grueling, intense, and violent matches for a fan-oriented style where everyone loves you, makes you tons of money, and makes you recognizable to people that haven't watched wrestling in *years* 30 years later is a bad trade.
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Post by ianriccaboni on Dec 25, 2021 11:45:41 GMT -5
I don't know if I would say for sure if he was the #3 face with how stacked the face roster was in 89-90. He was definitely up there but while Hogan and Warrior were definitely 1A and 1B, after them along with Dusty during that period you also had Beefcake, Jake, Duggan, Boss Man after he turned, Piper, and Tornado all of whom were also very protected and very over. I guess he might have been briefly #3 in late 89 and early 90 but I would say by summer 90 he was definitely below all of them in the pecking order (sans Beefcake who was sidelined after his parasailing accident and Piper who was doing commentary) and probably #5 at best. Also Dusty while he was one of the few to get captain spots in both 89 and 90 he also really wasn't marketed that much in that he wasn't on many of the posters for big shows or featured in the video games which was also another indicator as in to who they considered a big deal as in those early game days only 6-12 wrestlers would be featured in them. Unlike Dusty; Boss Man, Jake, Beefcake, and Duggan were featured in those around that period whether it be Superstars, Wrestlefest, or Wrestlemania Challenge. Dusty was also in his mid 40s when he was in the wwe, and at the end of his career. So the idea he should have been a top star is a reach in my opinion. Had it been 10 years earlier I can see if people thought he was being buried with the polka dots. But at this stage in his career, it wasnt a big deal. On top of this, Dusty was always treated as a big time star in WWWF when he came in even before his extended run. The giveaway is Vince's commentary - he absolutely adores him in the 70s appearances and the 89-91 run.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Dec 25, 2021 17:54:59 GMT -5
Does anyone really claim that the Bushwhackers were "ruined" financially? I only ever heard that they sucked, which they did, and which I thought when I was seven and had never heard of the Sheepherders. It's not like Luke and Butch were cutting any checks for me.
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