schma
Hank Scorpio
Somebody stop him! He's supposed to die!
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Post by schma on Jan 12, 2022 10:34:10 GMT -5
Contrary to conventional wisdom about the one bright spot of the Invasion, I hated ECW joining the storyline and consider it the moment any embers of actual intrigue still left smoldering in the angle were snuffed out. Sure, as an old WCW loyalist who was hoping for one last shot at a miracle, it was a heartbreaking end and makes me considerably biased. But it effectively turned the storyline into WWF wrestlers vs. WWF wrestlers who were once in ECW (along with their new buddies Rob Van Dam and Tommy Dreamer and village idiots Booker T and Diamond Dallas Page). And that's even before Stone Cold became leader of the group and every WWF heel jumped ship! Yeah, Buff Bagwell vs. Booker T wasn't great, but at least it was surreal and captured the worlds collide sensation you want from a storyline of this magnitude. Hindsight being 20/20 but that angle was dead the moment Shane showed up as the new owner on Nitro. At the time my friends and I loved that twist. We were fortunate up in Canada to be able to watch Raw and Nitro repeats after school on Tuesday and Wednesday and we were big fans of both organizations. Shane 'owning' WCW felt like we would finally get to see a true war between our favourite superstars and we were hyped.
Then we got...that and it was just freaking depressing. Austin as the leader of the alliance was the absolute worst and I would say the segment where the entire alliance metaphorically sucked him off to convince him to stay because he was so important was the final nail in the coffin. That said, the fact that WWF guys repeatedly made the WCW guys look like chumps were other nails but the Austin thing just made them genuinely look pathetic. It's telling that the final 5vs5 was WWE guys and RVD and Booker T. By that point any idea of a 'war' between the organisations had long passed into parody.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 12:24:09 GMT -5
I call bullshit on that. Roman makes a cameo in a Fast and the Furious movie and there are a good dozen youtube videos with other a million views for that. Roman's social media accounts all have millions of followers. Love Hacksaw but there's no way he had comparable fame in the 80's. Hacksaw never appeared in a movie that grossed 760 million dollars. It's all apples and oranges. Nobody saw Hobbs and Shaw for Roman Reigns. People saw that because it was in the Fast and Furious "universe" and for the Rock and Jason Statham. Everybody knew who Hacksaw Jim Duggan was in the 80s. If you want into Times Square and asked people about Roman Reigns and Kenny Omega... I bet 50% AT BEST know who either are. That's still inctedibly flawed logic. And no, not everyone did. Saying Hacksaw was known by everyone has no basis in any sort of tangible numbers. When you can look at Reigns' actual media accounts, that are actually followed by millions of people. But you know what? I don't like you. Every argument I ever see you make is incredibly flawed and you're so annoying. So blocking you, so I don't have to read your annoying posts anymore.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Jan 12, 2022 12:32:19 GMT -5
True, but I'd say it was over the moment you realized that the war between WCW and WWF was going to be fought for over the rights to which Mcmahon would reign supreme. On the "invading" side, you had Stone Cold Steve Austin, Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam and Shane McMahon. Oh and Booker T. It didn't help that from the get go, most of the WWE's WCW roster was made up of lesser known guys who had come around in the last two years, not that that's a bad thing, but they refused to give them anything to help them stand out. They buried DDP almost immediately. And no Sting. No Outsiders. No Eric Bischoff. No Ric Flair. No Goldberg. Just picking up a couple big names may have helped salvage it, as long as they elevated one or two other guys, and didn't bury any others. Instead, they had to rely on ECW guys and WWF defectors. That's beyond stupid. Once they had the WCW name, they should have changed the outcome of the main event of WrestleMania 17. With Austin trying his best to get a good heel run, it inevitably affected everything else. Sure, having a better roster of available wrestlers would have helped but, Vince owned everything. We knew that. We knew which side was going to be the faces and which the heels. It would be like beating an arrmy in battle and then having another mock battle a month later. Any real suspense was missing because one guy owned everything. The bizarre thing is, WCW were the faces and clear crowd favorites during the pre-Invasion era (from April through June). Like, I don't know if it was just the alignment with then-babyface Shane or the expectation that we were about to see some seriously big WCW stars showing up on WWF programming, but everyone was popping huge for everything WCW. Even Hugh Morrus got a decent reaction. It wasn't until WCW Raw and Bagwell vs. Booker that the crowd turned, and I honestly don't know if it was just the Tacoma crowd or the sudden realization that Sting and Goldberg weren't showing up after all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 12:37:22 GMT -5
I don't know if it count as an "old man yells at cloud" opinion, but I do really dislike how slick and polished everything has to be in WWE. Not saying everything needs to be super gritty, but I feel the current presentation is really lacking a soul.
And I guess this goes hand in hand with what I've posted above, but I really don't like the mood lighting crap that they use on Raw and SD.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
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Post by salz4life on Jan 12, 2022 14:02:23 GMT -5
Nobody saw Hobbs and Shaw for Roman Reigns. People saw that because it was in the Fast and Furious "universe" and for the Rock and Jason Statham. Everybody knew who Hacksaw Jim Duggan was in the 80s. If you want into Times Square and asked people about Roman Reigns and Kenny Omega... I bet 50% AT BEST know who either are. That's still inctedibly flawed logic. And no, not everyone did. Saying Hacksaw was known by everyone has no basis in any sort of tangible numbers. When you can look at Reigns' actual media accounts, that are actually followed by millions of people. But you know what? I don't like you. Every argument I ever see you make is incredibly flawed and you're so annoying. So blocking you, so I don't have to read your annoying posts anymore. Wow.... ok. LOL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 14:07:20 GMT -5
I thought Jinder Mahal was an excellent and enjoyable heel champion, and his reign tanking as spectacularly as it did was more of a self-fulfilling prophecy of people expecting it to suck and not giving it a chance, than it was that it actually sucked. I enjoyed Jinder as well. I thought he got better as the reign went on. I was at Backlash when he won and the crowd did pop when he won. I think it was more of a "I can't believe WWE actually did this" than anything else... but there was a pop. Yeah I was at the SD in Louisville where he won the #1 Contender's match, and he got the most heat of anyone that night. I guess that probably colored both of our perspectives a little bit, but I completely do not buy the narrative that the crowd outright rejected him as a main eventer from the beginning. The crowd rejected him as a main eventer when he wasn't presented as main event level, and all of his matches started to follow the same general script. But I think that at the beginning, his reign had promise and he looked and carried himself for the part.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 15:15:44 GMT -5
Wrestling was so much better before the Attitude era, and we've only kept the worst parts of it around (25 minute promos to open the shows, evil authority figures, storylines that have no ending, playing hot potato with the belts, etc.).
On the flip side, these days, I have very little interest in wrestling that *isn't* full of flips, no-selling, and spotfests.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 12, 2022 18:39:18 GMT -5
The "pipe bomb" sucked massive amounts of ass and never needed to happen. Sadly most people's idea of a "good promo" these days is just going off script and shooting on everyone for behind the scenes stuff. Not me. Give me Regal's promo where he defended Eugene's honor over this worked shoot garbage any day. The very first blood feud I saw was Ultimate Warrior vs Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 7. Neither man broke character yet it was built as if each wrestler's life depended on that match. Worked shoots rarely capture the blood fued essence.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by fw91 on Jan 12, 2022 18:49:18 GMT -5
John Cena was absolutely the right choice as the top guy.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Jan 12, 2022 18:52:01 GMT -5
I don’t miss the Indy era of nxt and I think it’s a better show overall as 2.0 I wouldn't go as far to say that it's better than 2014-2018 nxt. But pandemic era, post Cole title reign? I'd take 2.0 easily. Going for a rebranding of NXT was completely called for. It wasn't a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" situation. It was broke. Huge difference in star power during the early days than the later days
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Post by Andee9001 on Jan 12, 2022 18:59:39 GMT -5
Telling someone to like any other wrestling company for the sake of competition is just wrong. Jay from OSW encouraged people to support AEW because of this during one of their reviews and it rubbed me the wrong way. You don't have to support something just because its there. Support it because you enjoy it not because as a wrestling fan you are obligated to. And i say this as a fan of AEW, NWA, Impact, etc.
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Jake, The Jake, Jake
Dennis Stamp
Will never EVER get a personal title. Ever. Nope. Never. Not a chance. No way, no how.
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Post by Jake, The Jake, Jake on Jan 12, 2022 20:02:31 GMT -5
Way more matches should be like 5 to 10 minutes long I have a short attention span goddamnit
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Post by Edge of Insanity on Jan 12, 2022 20:49:46 GMT -5
Wrestlers who died early are viewed as bigger stars than they were alot of time. Sure Eddie Guerrero was great, but in no way was he ever in Lesnar or Cena's level as far as top guy status. Owen Hart was an upper midcarder at best his entire career except for the 6 months he feuded with Bret. The idea that he was world champion material after that is wrong.
Ric Flair is overated. Never been able to stand him. Just a personal opinion. I think the fact that he's a trash human being may have something to do with it.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 12, 2022 20:56:33 GMT -5
Shades of gray don’t work most of the time. Face vs. face can work in some rare instances (i.e. Hogan vs. Warrior), but for the most part you need a good guy and a bad guy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 21:29:46 GMT -5
Way more matches should be like 5 to 10 minutes long I have a short attention span goddamnit I've always felt this, outside of maybe a main event title match or PPVs. I really despise commercial breaks in the middle of a match, kayfabe it just feels disrespectful that shilling H&R Block is more important than high stakes brawl.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
Somebody stop him! He's supposed to die!
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Post by schma on Jan 12, 2022 22:03:14 GMT -5
Way more matches should be like 5 to 10 minutes long I have a short attention span goddamnit I've always felt this, outside of maybe a main event title match or PPVs. I really despise commercial breaks in the middle of a match, kayfabe it just feels disrespectful that shilling H&R Block is more important than high stakes brawl. Commerical breaks during matches were one of the worst things about latter day WCW and now we're back at that.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on Jan 12, 2022 22:44:07 GMT -5
WWE is trash and has been for about 20 years now.
They haven't created a new star since Roman debuted in November 2012. That's 10 years ago. Before that they hadn't created one since John Cena. That's 20 years ago.
Speaking of Cena, the OVW class of 2002 overstayed their welcome with me YEARS ago. If I never had to look at Cena, Orton, Brock or Batista again it would be too soon. I was never a fan of any of these guys from the beginning and the fact that WWE has leaned on them for the last 20 years because they no longer know how to create stars has made them that much more unbearable for me.
Everyone that says "WWE will be better after Vince is gone" it won't.
Everything that I detest about WWE, Vince, Stephanie, Michael Cole, Kevin Dunn, Johnny Ass, Prichard, etc, all already have their successors in place and they have all been taught by the same group of people I just named. Even when they're gone WWE will still be "sports entertainment, pal!!!"
News flash, there is no such thing as sports entertainment! Ask the next person you see walking down the street if they watched that sports entertainment show last night, they will look at you like you're from another planet.
The last chance WWE had to be anything resembling a pro wrestling company ever again went out the window when Vince chose Nick Khan over his own son-in-law.
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Post by Hypnosis on Jan 12, 2022 22:47:45 GMT -5
Way more matches should be like 5 to 10 minutes long I have a short attention span goddamnit Certainly for most TV matches, since not everyone on the roster is capable of going the distance without the match dragging (Corbin).
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Post by Edge of Insanity on Jan 12, 2022 22:51:43 GMT -5
I have never cared about the undertaker. He's always been very boring to me. The only time he was even a little interesting to me was during bikertaker era. And even then he that interesting. Respect his career and his accomplishments, just not a fan. Same with Kane.
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Jan 12, 2022 22:53:06 GMT -5
Contrary to conventional wisdom about the one bright spot of the Invasion, I hated ECW joining the storyline and consider it the moment any embers of actual intrigue still left smoldering in the angle were snuffed out. Sure, as an old WCW loyalist who was hoping for one last shot at a miracle, it was a heartbreaking end and makes me considerably biased. But it effectively turned the storyline into WWF wrestlers vs. WWF wrestlers who were once in ECW (along with their new buddies Rob Van Dam and Tommy Dreamer and village idiots Booker T and Diamond Dallas Page). And that's even before Stone Cold became leader of the group and every WWF heel jumped ship! Yeah, Buff Bagwell vs. Booker T wasn't great, but at least it was surreal and captured the worlds collide sensation you want from a storyline of this magnitude. On a related note, having the big stars would not have changed the booking. Look how many of them WERE booked post 2002!
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