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Post by Cyno on Jan 13, 2022 21:33:08 GMT -5
I feel like there would be more interesting discourse about Orange Cassidy and his gimmick if most of the people criticizing it actually watched his matches instead of half-watching one segment of it and just copy/pasting Jim Cornette's take on it. Like the moment someone calls him "Pockets" is like a mask off thing immediately.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 21:54:13 GMT -5
Kayfabe's dead. It has been for a long time. Sorry but if you think how a guy wrestles is going to kill the business and irrevocably destroy kayfabe after Owen Hart plummeted to his death, I don't know what to say to you.
You might not want kayfabe flaunted in your face but if "Pockets" is ruining wrestling, maybe it should f***ing die anyway.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Jan 13, 2022 22:50:05 GMT -5
I feel like there would be more interesting discourse about Orange Cassidy and his gimmick if most of the people criticizing it actually watched his matches instead of half-watching one segment of it and just copy/pasting Jim Cornette's take on it. Like the moment someone calls him "Pockets" is like a mask off thing immediately. I'm watching the matches. I'm criticizing how he's booked. And I haven't referred to him as "Pockets" in this or any other thread. Who exactly are you talking to here? I've gone from hatred of the gimmick to ambivalence to occasionally even liking some of his matches when he's used properly. Minds can be changed about this. But if he's not booked properly (i.e., doing jobs to Matt Hardy of all people) it's not helping anybody.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 13, 2022 22:57:02 GMT -5
I feel like there would be more interesting discourse about Orange Cassidy and his gimmick if most of the people criticizing it actually watched his matches instead of half-watching one segment of it and just copy/pasting Jim Cornette's take on it. Like the moment someone calls him "Pockets" is like a mask off thing immediately. I'm watching the matches. I'm criticizing how he's booked. And I haven't referred to him as "Pockets" in this or any other thread. Who exactly are you talking to here? I've gone from hatred of the gimmick to ambivalence to occasionally even liking some of his matches when he's used properly. Minds can be changed about this. But if he's not booked properly (i.e., doing jobs to Matt Hardy of all people) it's not helping anybody. I'm not talking about you. I think your posts show that you pay attention and I respect that.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Jan 13, 2022 23:04:49 GMT -5
I hate this kayfabe killing discussion because kayfabe was taken out back and shot in the head by Vince 25 years ago.
OC's gimmick is one that benefits from being used sparingly and the crowd playing along. Wrestling has always asked its audience to play along and suspend their disbelief, so that's nothing new. None of OC's opponents sell his kicks and the only reaction to most of his nonsense from his opponents is frustration and anger.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Jan 13, 2022 23:05:13 GMT -5
Also, I've never once heard anyone complain about people "selling" his lazy kicks in the sense that they sell pain or injury. They "sell" his lazy kicks in the sense that they stand there confused when they should respond by clotheslining him immediately...so in some sense, I guess those beatdowns from the Superkliq actually are well-booked.
If people are claiming this, then if people want to refute them, then they should be refuting them there, not in this thread.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Jan 13, 2022 23:08:04 GMT -5
I hate this kayfabe killing discussion because kayfabe was taken out back and shot in the head by Vince 25 years ago. OC's gimmick is one that benefits from being used sparingly and the crowd playing along. Wrestling has always asked its audience to play along and suspend their disbelief, so that's nothing new. None of OC's opponents sell his kicks and the only reaction to most of his nonsense from his opponents is frustration and anger. This is really neither here nor there with regard to OC by this point, but...Game of Thrones kept kayfabe (coffee cup notwithstanding). Dexter keeps kayfabe. The Mandalorian keeps kayfabe. Breaking Bad kept kayfabe. There's more to kayfabe than just pretending everything is real in real life. Some of us would rather see pro wrestling booked a little closer to pre-season-8 Game of Thrones and a little less like an annoying guy at the party elbowing you in the ribs with how hilarious he thinks he's being.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 14, 2022 1:17:36 GMT -5
Also, I've never once heard anyone complain about people "selling" his lazy kicks in the sense that they sell pain or injury. They "sell" his lazy kicks in the sense that they stand there confused when they should respond by clotheslining him immediately...so in some sense, I guess those beatdowns from the Superkliq actually are well-booked. If people are claiming this, then if people want to refute them, then they should be refuting them there, not in this thread. Well I'm stilll refuting the notion that Cassidy is "Killing Kayfabe" in this thread, that was specifically said here. The "selling" of his kicks was brought up in another recent thread hence why I mentioned it, but this usually goes with the territory of criticisms surrounding him, so I was covering a base.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 14, 2022 1:28:31 GMT -5
I hate this kayfabe killing discussion because kayfabe was taken out back and shot in the head by Vince 25 years ago. OC's gimmick is one that benefits from being used sparingly and the crowd playing along. Wrestling has always asked its audience to play along and suspend their disbelief, so that's nothing new. None of OC's opponents sell his kicks and the only reaction to most of his nonsense from his opponents is frustration and anger. This is really neither here nor there with regard to OC by this point, but...Game of Thrones kept kayfabe (coffee cup notwithstanding). Dexter keeps kayfabe. The Mandalorian keeps kayfabe. Breaking Bad kept kayfabe. There's more to kayfabe than just pretending everything is real in real life. Some of us would rather see pro wrestling booked a little closer to pre-season-8 Game of Thrones and a little less like an annoying guy at the party elbowing you in the ribs with how hilarious he thinks he's being. OK, and in that regard, I'd say AEW does a really damn good job at staying very grounded in reality, with a few gimmicks more outlandish here and there which is just what you get when it comes to wrestling just like if you're gonna watch Game of Thrones you're gonna see Dragons. AEW makes references to other companies and wrestlers histories there, they acknowledge there is a working wrestling world outside of theirs, and they acknowledge a wrestlers struggles sometimes in getting to their place, but this isn't something AEW just does, WWE's made whole documentaries and series on the developmental programs at this point, so I guess it really comes down to what you want as a consumer, as I feel AEW does plenty while at some specific points being meta... but I can't tell you a wrestling company that doesn''t do that anymore. That's just how the business is these days. I don't think it's as obnoxious as say someone trying to say "I liked you better as Hal in Malcolm in the Middle" to Walter White, but wrestling as a whole in my opinion goes into multiple mediums, it's theater, it's sport, it's drama, it's meta, it's crazy, it has demons, it has monsters, it has all different shapes and sizes, and they all have their own desires and how they work. I've seen obnoxious meta, I saw it in WCW, I saw it in TNA, and hell I've seen it sometimes in WWE too... I don't think AEW's gotten anywhere close to that at least in harsh doses where it's really hurting the product, or I'd have plenty more negative to say about the show than I do, I'm not one to hold back lol. It makes sense a lot of the time, it does well what it needs to do well, it's not always perfect, but I don't feel like I'm being insulted or my time is being wasted, and I feel very rewarded when we get to the end of a journey. And I think a lot of people have waited a long time for that. Given the investment and time people and kids go into in dressing as Orange in crowds almost every show he's at, or Darby, or Rosa. So yeah, can they stand to improve some aspects? Sure, but I also think for how well they've done and overachieved, some things can also be viewed as semantics on every side of the coin.
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Bang Bang Bart
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 14, 2022 1:37:12 GMT -5
I don’t think AEW will ever be in danger of doing any “this is Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque” shooty-tooty moments.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Jan 14, 2022 1:54:30 GMT -5
None of my criticisms have anything to do with AEW being "meta" in the sense of acknowledging other companies.
Actually in some aspects I feel like AEW doesn't go far enough in that regard. I think people on this board and elsewhere vastly overestimate how many of their viewers know who, say, Minoru Suzuki is. AEW just sort of assumes we all know because live attendees (i.e., the most devoted fans) sing his theme. I have a really bad feeling that when/if Danhausen shows up, AEW is just going to assume we all know what his deal is.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 14, 2022 2:42:48 GMT -5
Going back to the topic at hand, I think AEW should ease off on the outside interference for a bit. The worst thing they could do is what happened with WWE and condition the fans to not give a damn about a match because they always expect bullshit to happen.
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chnwh
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Post by chnwh on Jan 14, 2022 5:33:52 GMT -5
There are far too many beat downs backstage and after matches. Gets silly at times.
I love OC btw, not keen on the rest of the friends especially Chuck Taylor.
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Jan 14, 2022 6:29:50 GMT -5
The psychology of OCs hands-in-pockets weak kick combo is actually really nice. It's bait. His guard is down he wants the heel to attack him, at which point he dodges and counters.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Jan 14, 2022 6:48:36 GMT -5
The psychology of OCs hands-in-pockets weak kick combo is actually really nice. It's bait. His guard is down he wants the heel to attack him, at which point he dodges and counters. Yea, like Ali's Rope A Dope tactic, throws people off their game
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Jan 14, 2022 10:35:22 GMT -5
Again, that falls apart when he's surrounded by 3 guys. And how's he going to do his Matrix dodge when he has a foot in the air? Why doesn't the guy just level him as soon as he lifts his foot?
The best OC matches skip all that and just have him...you know, wrestle.
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Jan 14, 2022 11:10:42 GMT -5
There are far too many beat downs backstage and after matches. Gets silly at times. I think its cause of the stable-heavy aspect of the company. Problem is AEW thinks that every heel stable HAS to do run-ins/beatdowns/backstage attacks and every face stable has to be dumb enough to not make the save until after the beatdown, or just not be present at all in the first place which allows it to happen.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 14, 2022 12:33:10 GMT -5
Yeah when you have the Super-Elite doing it. The HFO doing it. Britt’s goons doing it. And ATT doing it when they’re around as well, etc.
It’s too much all at once.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 14, 2022 13:13:14 GMT -5
Again, that falls apart when he's surrounded by 3 guys. And how's he going to do his Matrix dodge when he has a foot in the air? Why doesn't the guy just level him as soon as he lifts his foot? The best OC matches skip all that and just have him...you know, wrestle. He always does matches where he wrestles, but he also has done this shtick like every single match he's been in, and it's never been an issue. It seems to be for you because you put outstandingly vigorous logic into what feels like every aspect of the show. That's fine if that's what you wanna do, but imo wrestling's not about figuring out or thinking about every single spot all the time, if I did that I think I'd drive myself crazy, and I'm as analyzing as it gets. The spot is all about baiting and about trying to delay and dumbfound his opponents, sometimes it's worked, sometimes it hasn't, if anything him doing it shows he isn't rattled by a situation he isn't outnumbered, and judging by how the crowd reacts, it endears him to them.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 14, 2022 13:18:02 GMT -5
Yeah when you have the Super-Elite doing it. The HFO doing it. Britt’s goons doing it. And ATT doing it when they’re around as well, etc. It’s too much all at once. For you, not for everyone, it largely depends on your preference and how much segments being similar are going to bug you or your viewership of the show Clearly on FAN, it bugs some people lol. But at large, idk how much it actively bugs the community at large or how much they actually even think about it. If it actively detracts from the show, viewership, and gets a ton of negative blowback online it's a different story and AEW's more likely to pivot... if it's a more niche critique? It's probably why they don't see the issue and keep doing it to progress the story. You don't hear live crowds audibly groaning and hijacking the show because the evil stable ran out to attack the good guys again, if it starts to get to that point, I think that's when it's gonna be too much, and when they'd probably be more inclined to pivot tactics. But given stuff like The Bucks and Undisputed get some of the highest show ratings any time they're on the camera... might not be coming any time soon, but it doesn't mean they won't organically move on from it either, because when it comes to the groups you listed, I don't see Britt's Group as far as Hayter is concerned, The Super Elite, and HFO lasting much longer.
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