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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 18, 2022 11:34:27 GMT -5
I think Ali's a bigger miss than some of the other talents they've released lately, TBH. Can go in the ring, isn't THAT much smaller than some of their other main event guys, and can talk circles around everybody. No reason he shouldn't be a huge star elsewhere.
It honestly goes back to the concept that like...if you present somebody as a big deal, then fans can perceive them as a big deal. Ali's presentation was SO cool at first and crowds were getting into him. The whole "Chase the Light" thing was actually really neat, he beat D. Bry and was seemingly on his way to a title run. Then he comes back, they basically forget anything cool about him and he wallows in obscurity.
Even after his initial run there were still glimmers of hope -- He took Retribution and made them relevant and even helped Mansoor become something beyond just the Saudi show guy. Perhaps the most alarming thing is like...the guy could have been HUGE for them from a PR standpoint. I know the stockholders don't care, but man.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 18, 2022 11:35:02 GMT -5
Impact is probably the place where character and mic skills are most important. They do a ton of backstage stuff for example. It’s part of the why the IIconics/IInspiration feel right at home there for example.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Jan 18, 2022 12:22:02 GMT -5
I just remember thinking about how BS that finish to MITB was a few years ago. Everyone out there killing themselves in the match, and Ali finally about to get his moment. And then Brock Lesnar just waltzes down and wins at the last minute while Ali needs to look stupid in the process. Sums up his career, and WWE’s booking, nicely in one fell swoop. That ending made Ali look like an idiot.
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Post by darbus alan on Jan 18, 2022 12:29:20 GMT -5
It's 2022 and despite all the horror stories from former talent about the way booking works, we still live in a world that people think that the reason wrestlers don't get over in WWE is their own fault.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 18, 2022 12:35:41 GMT -5
It's 2022 and despite all the horror stories from former talent about the way booking works, we still live in a world that people think that the reason wrestlers don't get over in WWE is their own fault. I have to believe some of those takes in here, especially those by posters with like 60 total posts, are made in bad faith to try and rile people up. I'll be the first to say I actually still enjoy watching WWE PPVs sometimes but I still think it's pretty obvious they've fumbled more honest to goodness stars than they've made in the last half-decade.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2022 12:48:21 GMT -5
I liked 205 Live but honestly besides Enzo, PAC and KENTA, I didn't see any of them as big players or anything. Good in the ring? Yes. But they were too small and generic for my taste. What was Tony Nese and Murphy's gimmick or character? They had none. And that's not gonna catch the eye of Vince. They'll do well in Impact cause they like "pure wrestling" and regular guys. But WWE value mic skills, personality and distinctive looks above that. They didn't have any character because Vince never gave a shit to try and GIVE THEM any gimmick of character. They overly script promos, sometimes they never let these guys talk ever, and when you're regulated to 205 live or main event, how the f*** are you supposed to show you have anything?? I also fail to see how a super athletic human being is a "regular guy", but that's another debate entirely. No one was even saying they had to be big players, but WWE didn't even try to make them regular players, or anything, for that matter, that's the issue. Do you see their midcard right now? It's nothing, the US and Intercontinental Titles are glorified paperweights. Ali could have been doing SOMETHING, Cedric could have been doing something worthwhile, Murphy, Tozawa, Nese, etc, those guys didn't have to be main event stars, but they all have upside, upside that Vince doesn't and didn't see. And frankly? It's biting him in the ass, especially in the long term imo. I can't really blame Vince this time. Tony Nese and Murphy still have no character. They're the exact same.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 18, 2022 12:51:02 GMT -5
I can't really blame Vince this time. Tony Nese and Murphy still have no character. They're the exact same. I mean, he hired and booked them. If he wasn’t going to give them time to have a character or even anything to go on, that’s pretty much on him, the head Booker and writer of the company. The buck stops at him. You can’t write posts about how bad the women’s division is and then say “Well, they have no character and that’s on them” for others. That’s not how it works with someone in his position.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2022 12:57:55 GMT -5
I can't really blame Vince this time. Tony Nese and Murphy still have no character. They're the exact same. I mean, he hired and booked them. If he wasn’t going to give them time to have a character or even anything to go on, that’s pretty much on him, the head Booker and writer of the company. The buck stops at him. You can’t write posts about how bad the women’s division is and then say “Well, they have no character and that’s on them” for others. That’s not how it works with someone in his position. A lot of the time, wrestlers gimmicks are created by the performers. I'm not saying Vince NEVER did it... But he's a 76 year old man. He probably doesn't even know Tony Nese, let alone give a shit enough to create a gimmick for him. I guess my point is, if Tony Nese and Murphy were such great talents, why aren't we seeing what WWE missed out on elsewhere? 5 star matches won't convince me. I will only be convinced if they reinvent their personalities.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 18, 2022 13:02:15 GMT -5
A lot of the time, wrestlers gimmicks are created by the performers. Yes, and WWE modifies them to suit their show. Or if they actually care instead of stocking the talent shed they would, anyway. Dude, he booked the 205 Live people really liked, of course he knew who Tony Nese was. He put him in Enzo’s stable. Come on now.
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Post by edgestar on Jan 18, 2022 13:12:13 GMT -5
I just remember thinking about how BS that finish to MITB was a few years ago. Everyone out there killing themselves in the match, and Ali finally about to get his moment. And then Brock Lesnar just waltzes down and wins at the last minute while Ali needs to look stupid in the process. Sums up his career, and WWE’s booking, nicely in one fell swoop. I was there. I was excited for him to win. The guy will be amazing in whatever career path he chooses.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 18, 2022 13:28:27 GMT -5
A lot of the time, wrestlers gimmicks are created by the performers. Yes, and WWE modifies them to suit their show. Or if they actually care instead of stocking the talent shed they would, anyway. Dude, he booked the 205 Live people really liked, of course he knew who Tony Nese was. He put him in Enzo’s stable. Come on now. Man at the time the Enzo train was my favorite thing in WWE , I was really looking forward to Gulak turning on Enzo
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 18, 2022 13:31:28 GMT -5
It's 2022 and despite all the horror stories from former talent about the way booking works, we still live in a world that people think that the reason wrestlers don't get over in WWE is their own fault. I think there are some who falk into the category of not getting themselves over. But yes most people just aren't given the time of say. I remember Murphy's interview with SRS and he basically confirmed that a lot of people in creative just gave him lip service to get him to go away and if you were not one of Vince or Bruce's boys you were not going to get many ideas your way
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 18, 2022 13:38:01 GMT -5
Danielson is a big fan so he’d probably get picked up by AEW if he’s interested. Impact would give him a more instant push but it appears like he wants more creative control. Twitter statement implies he has a bit of time left as if it was expiring he’d just keep quiet and run down the clock, making it public means he wants to push WWE into granting his wish for good PR. Which could work, could completely backfire, depends what mood Vince is in. If Hollywood then all the best but hope he’s realistic that it’s going to be starting from zero. Rock and Batista were bigger names with more charisma (and Rock was in some stinkers for his first few years) and when Marvel or DC get around to casting their first Desi superhero they’re probably going to cast someone from Bollywood to get a billion extra eyes on the film. As a leading man sure, but Kozlov of all people is making a comfortable living as "henchman guy 5" in a bunch of movies and doesn't have 1/100th of Ali's charisma. Hey now, Kozlov in The Punisher series was at least henchman guy #4.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Jan 18, 2022 14:43:57 GMT -5
They didn't have any character because Vince never gave a shit to try and GIVE THEM any gimmick of character. They overly script promos, sometimes they never let these guys talk ever, and when you're regulated to 205 live or main event, how the f*** are you supposed to show you have anything?? I also fail to see how a super athletic human being is a "regular guy", but that's another debate entirely. No one was even saying they had to be big players, but WWE didn't even try to make them regular players, or anything, for that matter, that's the issue. Do you see their midcard right now? It's nothing, the US and Intercontinental Titles are glorified paperweights. Ali could have been doing SOMETHING, Cedric could have been doing something worthwhile, Murphy, Tozawa, Nese, etc, those guys didn't have to be main event stars, but they all have upside, upside that Vince doesn't and didn't see. And frankly? It's biting him in the ass, especially in the long term imo. I can't really blame Vince this time. Tony Nese and Murphy still have no character. They're the exact same. Its up to WWE to to give them characters and angles. Remember when Stephanie was head of creative and found out that Stevie Richards was doing a Stevie Night Heat gimmick? She flipped out. Can you imagine Vince finding out some wrestlers gave themselves characters without his ok.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 18, 2022 15:54:03 GMT -5
I can't really blame Vince this time. Tony Nese and Murphy still have no character. They're the exact same. Its up to WWE to to give them characters and angles. Remember when Stephanie was head of creative and found out that Stevie Richards was doing a Stevie Night Heat gimmick? She flipped out. Can you imagine Vince finding out some wrestlers gave themselves characters without his ok. If I remember right Stevie even said she didn't flip out she was very confused and it was Bruce who flipped out cause he felt he looked like an idiot from that
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Jan 18, 2022 16:08:52 GMT -5
Now things get a bit muddled, don't they? When 205 live was booked by HHH, the match quality was considered outstanding, the character work lackluster - the reactions from the audience were not good. When Vince booked 205 live, it put more emphasis on character work (Tony Nese did have more character under his guidance with his "8 reasons" schtick), the match quality was slightly worse - the reactions still not good. I think - for whatever reason - the target audience of 205 live was different from those in attendance even in it's best days. Because generally the quality would be applauded by a big chunk of NXT and AEW fans. So somewhere absolutely everyone at least lost the plot on who the target audience is. It could take Neville half a match to get people invested and his work was tremendous.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 18, 2022 16:16:06 GMT -5
Now things get a bit muddled, don't they? When 205 live was booked by HHH, the match quality was considered outstanding, the character work lackluster - the reactions from the audience were not good. When Vince booked 205 live, it put more emphasis on character work (Tony Nese did have more character under his guidance with his "8 reasons" schtick), the match quality was slightly worse - the reactions still not good. I think - for whatever reason - the target audience of 205 live was different from those in attendance even in it's best days. Because generally the quality would be applauded by a big chunk of NXT and AEW fans. So somewhere absolutely everyone at least lost the plot on who the target audience is. It could take Neville half a match to get people invested and his work was tremendous. I think it was just a programming thing. WWE told people for years that smaller people weren’t stars and only fodder for bigger dudes to eat them so it wasn’t exactly going to be an overnight thing that people were going to care about them. Then there was the purple ropes thing, not many real angles to get people invested, most of the main event being smaller guys so it made the idea of a cruiserweight title redundant, the smaller guys still being squashed on TV by bigger dudes when they should have been promoting a new show and it all basically lead to where we are now.
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Post by crowley1986 on Jan 18, 2022 16:19:37 GMT -5
Its up to WWE to to give them characters and angles. Remember when Stephanie was head of creative and found out that Stevie Richards was doing a Stevie Night Heat gimmick? She flipped out. Can you imagine Vince finding out some wrestlers gave themselves characters without his ok. If I remember right Stevie even said she didn't flip out she was very confused and it was Bruce who flipped out cause he felt he looked like an idiot from that explains why Bruce really dislikes him when he's brought up the odd time on STWW
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2022 16:30:11 GMT -5
Impact is probably the place where character and mic skills are most important. They do a ton of backstage stuff for example. It’s part of the why the IIconics/IInspiration feel right at home there for example. The IInspiration are so great. I was really bummed when they were released, especially Jessie, but I'm happy they're in a place now where they can do more of their stellar character work.
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Post by 06vwgti on Jan 18, 2022 18:26:07 GMT -5
I've always wondered what would have happened if Stevie Night heat continued on without management knowing, I thought it was great when it aired, but at the same time, that seems like huge oversight that the chain of management did not know what was going on. It makes me wonder if that weird season of NXT before it relaunched as developmental was another similar situation.
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