There's a ring psychology/selling problem in AEW

[Zone Was Wrong]

I truly don't care about finishers used as mid match moves. As long as something is presented as how a person puts someone away, it will get you to bite on a pin fall or submission. So long as the wrestlers, announcers, and referee sell it as such, then I'll buy it. Do I wish moves like the top rope Spanish fly was presented as a kill move? Sure. But it doesn't bother me so much as to take me out of the match.

I do think have tombstone spots in three matches was dumb though. Not because of the fact they weren't finishers, but because it felt like there was a lack of communication between agents.

[Tiger Millionaire]

It's not how I grew up watching it, but it is what it is, and I learned to live with it. The barn door has been open for about 10-15 years when it took 3+ finishers to win a big match. Once that happened, most things became devalued. And hell, Bob Backlund won with an atomic drop, and when I was watching, that was largely a comedy spot.

[Cyno]

I think the in-ring psychology is one of AEW's strengths if anything. Sammy Guevara is really the only wrestler I can think of in the company who has a problem with selling.

And yeah, I really don't care if Canadian Destroyers, Tombstones, Superkicks etc. are used as big spot moves that aren't finishers. That's just the industry evolving and hardly a unique thing to AEW (you see Canadian Destroyers/flip piledrivers used a lot all over wrestling these days because it's a very flashy, yet very safe move to use). Yesterday's finishers become today's mid-match moves. That's just how wrestling's always been.

[Instant Classic]

It’s why I have regressed as a Sammy Guevara fan.

[evilhomer]

Totally agree. They rely on the big spot dramatic kick out far too much. This does have it's place in selected matches but when it's overdone, it just totally takes me out of the match.

[lavelleuk22]

My internal logic for moves like ddt, tombstone etc. becoming midmatch moves has always been that in kayfabe new workers would train to take them. I know you can't logically train to be dropped on your head, but I always imagine them working on their neck muscles or something lol

Plus these days it's much smaller and lighter guys doing it, of course a 7 foot undead zombie portrayed as one of the toughest and strongest guys ever would be better at it. Look at Jake, he's twice the size as some of these guys, so his DDT will be more powerful etc

Historically smaller guys have always kicked out of more "moves" when fighting other smaller guys, look at the Japanese juniors or WCW cruiserweights. I think it's just more noticeable now 90% of them would qualify for the cruiserweight division. It makes sense lighter guys wouldn't get the same impact on moves, but would also have better conditioning to kick out imo

[Bo Rida]

Yeah I agree, the Tombstones just became silly. Although I've always been far more accepting of such things in tag matches than in singles.

The Bucks are amazing at what they do, there's psychology but it's different, like the callbacks against Lucha Bros or them and FTR using moves from the teams/eras that inspired them.

Trouble is others can't keep up. Good example at revolution was Bobby Fish getting lost, at one point politely crawling out the way so Luchasaurus could drag Jungle Boy to their corner. All the crazy moves and he's incapacitated by a pin being broke up.

Wardlow being alone to climb the ladder and deciding to jump out the ring instead was even worse.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Mar 9, 2022 6:04:23 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

Wardlow being alone to climb the ladder and deciding to jump out the ring instead was even worse.

I'm not gonna put too much heat on that, Cassidy got f***ed and it threw off the ending of the match pretty hard, and that was probably why

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Revolution had one of the most restrained Adam Cole main events I've ever seen, that's all I can say

[Bad Moon]

Selling is dumb. We've all seen what real fights look like by now, if someone sells as long as they used to in pro wrestling, they would lose by TKO because the ref can see they can't defend themselves anymore and the match should be stopped.

[clifford]

You either get over it or you don't. I'm over it, and it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of matches anymore.

Even when Sammy goes Super Saiyan Spot Monkey and forgets about anything that has happened in the match up to that point it doesn't take me out of it too much.

It is what it is.

[mrbananagrabber]

I honestly hate it and it just takes me out of matches when it happens. You’ve got these indestructible guys spamming moves that would kill you in real life. Wrestling is all about the suspension of belief and it just kills it. It’s like you need a f***ing bazooka to take out a Young Buck these days. Ridiculous.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Mar 9, 2022 7:03:54 GMT -5 mrbananagrabber said:

I honestly hate it and it just takes me out of matches when it happens. You’ve got these indestructible guys spamming moves that would kill you in real life. Wrestling is all about the suspension of belief and it just kills it. It’s like you need a f***ing bazooka to take out a Young Buck these days. Ridiculous.

Once again, if you're gonna have a problem with some guys in AEW not selling, then have the same problem with ALL OF WRESTLING. In many cases, promotions like New Japan or AAA do no selling in matches even worse than the prospect that AEW does it, or WWE who does constant finisher spam for their highest profile matches, like every single Lesnar match the last like 7-8 years.

And I'm tired of the Young Bucks slander really, they do sell, they're good at match psychology in general and planning shit out hence why their shit works most of the time. Most of their pinfalls are broken up by another guy and it isn't even them kicking out anyway.

If wrestling is about suspending your disbelief, then why is it so hard to believe these guys are trained to be able to take this stuff on any given night? They're not SUPPOSED to be normal people, they're supposed to be closer to a Superhero than a normal person, so the shit that "kills you in real life", isn't the case in a wrestling ring... like that's the whole point, at least I always thought it was.

[Blade]

Everybody's got their own tolerance for this. For me the Bucks are generally okay, but Sammy bugs me, and I really like the few people with the skill to ACTUALLY sell an injured body part, not "it's okay just long enough for me to do every spot I want to, but I yell and grab the supposedly injured part afterwards". But, bluntly, that skill has been rare for the 30 years I've watched wrestling.

I do think you have to accept for the sake of professional wrestling that wrestlers are, functionally, superhuman. They are more like superheroes than real wrestlers. Real wrestling and MMA often ends in seconds. Pro wrestling matches are like movie fight scenes, where being exciting is more important than being realistic.

Of course, again, everyone's preference on "realism versus excitement" is different.

As for the tombstone being just another move... that's just what happens. Piledrivers were a kill move once upon a time (and a tombstone is just a piledriver variant). The DDT was a kill move once upon a time. Just go with the logic that "nobody knows how to do it as well as Jake/Undertaker did", it's the only way.

[lavelleuk22]

Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff?

To me Jungle Boy is the main guy I notice kicking out of big moves and finishers, but never hear people say it about him.

Either way I enjoy young bucks matches, but a lot of the time even if you don't there will be a different style match somewhere on the show that's a bit more psychology based

[THE FVNKER]

This just made me think of something.. why is there supposed to be no closed fists but you can deliver a full on side hopping kick right to your opponents jawbone as hard as you can? 🤣🤣🤣

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

There’s points where I’d like to see some slower paced AEW matches just for variety’s sake, but I can buy into the “wrestlers are borderline superhuman” in an official canon. Okada in some promos has compared the NJPW roster to superheroes. That’s different IMO from “supernatural wrestling” like Lucha Underground. But in some instances I’m okay with delayed selling or a brief no-sell if it adds to the drama.

And ring styles always evolve anyway. Workers like Savage and Flair in their primes were more or less the spot heavy guys of their day, Lou Thesz felt later stars went too fast.

[Nr1Humanoid]

It would not hurt if the commentators said something on the subject once in a while like maybe...

"I feel sorry for Sammy when he hits the shower. That's when the pain is finally gonna set in from all the abuse he has taken this match."

[Deleted]

Everyone's an invincible superhero now. Even RVD vs Sabu matches had more selling.

I realize that's how it is now, and I'm old though.

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

I do agree that AEW, at times, does feel like the epitome of the “arms race” of big moves and wow spots that Hiroshi Tanahashi talked about in his book. The type that results in injuries and diminishing returns after a short term dopamine hit. I also do still get annoyed at the way some in AEW set up their spots. I’ll concede that right off the bat.

That said, I feel like the psychology and storytelling in AEW is the best it’s ever been. Especially over the past few PPVs. I mean, it doesn’t get much better than the Dog Collar, Kingston/Jericho and Mox/Danielson matches in that regard. In terms of selling I do think that there are some who simply just don’t understand the concept at all(looking at you, Sammy) but, I think we need to manage our expectations in terms of what selling is and should be in 2022.

Over the last couple of decades, we’ve seen the advent and rise of a sport that is the closest thing to real life Pro Wrestling there will ever be in Mixed Martial Arts. We’ve seen the effect it has in terms of real fighting and it doesn’t always work the way pro wrestling has classically portrayed it. I’ve seen guys get slammed right on their heads on those hard mats in MMA and barely register it. For that reason, I feel as though we need to reevaluate what selling is in today’s pro wrestling landscape. I think, overall, AEW does a pretty decent job of that. It’s not perfect but, it’s not as “business exposing” as some would make it out to be.