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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 19:15:13 GMT -5
I can't be the only one that gets taken out of some of the matches when I see an obvious lack of psychology and selling.
It's my one critique with AEW. They spam too many Canadian Destroyers, Tombstones and "big spots" and it's like they don't even matter cause they're back on their feet like nothings happened a few seconds later.
Honestly Sammy Guevara is the worst at it. But the Young Bucks aren't much better.
I recognize these guys are talented and they've had some good matches but where's the storytelling man? You can't do a Canadian Destroyer from the apron through a table and then have it NOT end the match. I'm sorry but that's just stupid.
Am I alone in this? The amount of Tombstones at Revolution was a joke. Even my casual fan friends picked up on it.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Mar 8, 2022 19:19:55 GMT -5
It’s just how wrestling is now. Im not saying it’s not a legit complaint. I personally just want to be entertained and what AEW does in ring entertains me. But, it’s pretty much what wrestling is right now.
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Post by flowercity on Mar 8, 2022 19:22:34 GMT -5
It’s interesting and I can’t really say you’re wrong.
For the tombstones, it was just ridiculous they had 3 matches where it was used for a near fall. But I feel that same way if it had been something like a pump handle slam. Maybe it’s just that for so long the Tombstone was protected, and now it isn’t.
The AEW has a lot of protected moves. One Winged Angel, Judas Effect, and Buckshot are some examples.
As for storytelling, I think it varies. I vehemently disagree the Bucks don’t tell stories but there are some wrestlers on the roster where it’s a fair critique.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 8, 2022 19:34:41 GMT -5
It's just never bothered me that much on the basis that if you want to apply realism, people would only have to punch someone in the head a few times to win matches. There could sometimes do with a little less springing up after a big move though, and not every match needs a dive to the outside.
And I still say The Bucks are getting much better with this. They're fast paced, that's their style, but they sell.
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 8, 2022 19:39:01 GMT -5
This tends to be my biggest issues with the Young Bucks matches. It’s hard to explain but they’re almost exhausting to watch, even though the moves and sequences are extremely well done.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Mar 8, 2022 19:50:53 GMT -5
Yeah, Bucks actually sell and employ psychology and have for a minute.
This does hella bother me with Sammy. And occasional examples like the top rope tombstone, that yb/lb tag ladder match, and the occasional Destroyer or whatever.
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Post by britishbulldog on Mar 8, 2022 20:00:15 GMT -5
This was my problem with Revolution in general. Read matches should just be tornado times cuz dear god everyone is in the ring the entire time. Too many spots that should end matches but not happening. After punk/mjf all the other blood was pointless and didn’t matter. I have no issues with blading but it was way over done and for me hurt the matches. I was excited for Revolution as I’m trying to get into AEW. But I won’t be buying another ppv site to issues like these.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 8, 2022 20:18:54 GMT -5
This was my problem with Revolution in general. Read matches should just be tornado times cuz dear god everyone is in the ring the entire time. Too many spots that should end matches but not happening. After punk/mjf all the other blood was pointless and didn’t matter. I have no issues with blading but it was way over done and for me hurt the matches. I was excited for Revolution as I’m trying to get into AEW. But I won’t be buying another ppv site to issues like these. The blood imo was far from pointless. It played well into the fatigue MJF and Punk were selling in the match, along with their hurt limbs. Bryan and Mox was sold as a match where they would bleed together, literally in solidarity... it was telegraphed from the very beginning and it had a point. Regal butting heads with Moxley to get some blood on his own, enraged face, was one of the best visuals of the entire night. So I vehemently disagree on this point.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 8, 2022 20:20:37 GMT -5
It’s just how wrestling is now. Im not saying it’s not a legit complaint. I personally just want to be entertained and what AEW does in ring entertains me. But, it’s pretty much what wrestling is right now. In the end, this is where I'm at. Some people in AEW sell amazingly, some less so... this is a problem in all of wrestling. You can point as many fingers at AEW talent as you can in literally every other company in the world right now, whether it's WWE, New Japan, Impact, etc If you really wanna see egregious blading and no selling, I got news for you... AAA is a million times worse lmfao. The last TripleMania had Psycho Clown getting murdered by like 5 people at once, hit with finishers, objects, low blows, his mask torn and busted open... and he still won his damn match lmfao
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 20:27:53 GMT -5
Presentation is everything.
Paul E. once said he could get Mark Henry over with just a headlock. If you think about it, it makes sense. He doesn't have to do anything more than pop your head off your neck like a pimple. From a Kayfabe perspective, the smaller guys have to "swarm" with a flurry of things, at least that's how I always looked at it.
For that matter, here's what Jake said about the DDT being used as a highspot:
"Well, you know, the guys have really messed up with using it as a high spot just to show all the fans that they’re not as good as I was. So, every time they use it, it reminds people how good I was. So I think it was pretty funny."
Now, there's a couple of ways to read that, but I interpret it as "You kids can use it for a 2 count all you want, but if I were still in the ring, I'd get the 1, 2, 3 and the crowd would eat it up", basically a psuedo-kayfabe way of saying "You only get a 2 count because you ain't doing it right, and I'm the master"
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 8, 2022 20:31:03 GMT -5
Presentation is everything. Paul E. once said he could get Mark Henry over with just a headlock. If you think about it, it makes sense. He doesn't have to do anything more than pop your head off your neck like a pimple. From a Kayfabe perspective, the smaller guys have to "swarm" with a flurry of things, at least that's how I always looked at it. For that matter, here's what Jake said about the DDT being used as a highspot: "Well, you know, the guys have really messed up with using it as a high spot just to show all the fans that they’re not as good as I was. So, every time they use it, it reminds people how good I was. So I think it was pretty funny." Now, there's a couple of ways to read that, but I interpret it as "You kids can use it for a 2 count all you want, but if I were still in the ring, I'd get the 1, 2, 3 and the crowd would eat it up" I also go by the logic of "The master of the move is the master for a reason" Shawn Michaels invented the Superkick, he knows how to win with it. The Bucks and such emulated it, they use it for flash, not for substance, not to kill someone with it. Same with Tombstones, many of which are used by lighter wrestlers, smaller wrestlers. Not Undertaker, who mastered the move, and knows how to end a match with it. It's to me, very logical in kayfabe, to watch a lot of peeps do "finisher" moves that don't end a match because it's not their lane and not their move, hence the kickouts.
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Post by 06vwgti on Mar 8, 2022 20:31:10 GMT -5
It depends, Im fine with tombstones being devalued now, mostly due to never being a fan of taker in and out of the ring, but do think sometimes there is a too many kick out problem with some moves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 20:40:39 GMT -5
Presentation is everything. Paul E. once said he could get Mark Henry over with just a headlock. If you think about it, it makes sense. He doesn't have to do anything more than pop your head off your neck like a pimple. From a Kayfabe perspective, the smaller guys have to "swarm" with a flurry of things, at least that's how I always looked at it. For that matter, here's what Jake said about the DDT being used as a highspot: "Well, you know, the guys have really messed up with using it as a high spot just to show all the fans that they’re not as good as I was. So, every time they use it, it reminds people how good I was. So I think it was pretty funny." Now, there's a couple of ways to read that, but I interpret it as "You kids can use it for a 2 count all you want, but if I were still in the ring, I'd get the 1, 2, 3 and the crowd would eat it up" I also go by the logic of "The master of the move is the master for a reason" Shawn Michaels invented the Superkick, he knows how to win with it. The Bucks and such emulated it, they use it for flash, not for substance, not to kill someone with it. Same with Tombstones, many of which are used by lighter wrestlers, smaller wrestlers. Not Undertaker, who mastered the move, and knows how to end a match with it. It's to me, very logical in kayfabe, to watch a lot of peeps do "finisher" moves that don't end a match because it's not their lane and not their move, hence the kickouts. I think it was Gentleman Chris Adams who invented the superkick, but your point is still valid. I think about it this way: plenty of talent use kicks, but Malakai Black is the one who has the kick that will KTFO you. Cutters are everywhere, but as Cody said, "The Lethal Injection is the one cutter you don't kick out of". It's not like the DDT is a jabroni move, either, since the Paradigm shift is just a modified DDT. Lariats/Clotheslines are super common, but the champ's finisher is... a lariat. Examples are everywhere.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Mar 8, 2022 20:44:18 GMT -5
There’s a difference between how wrestlers like Tay and Sammy do high spots and how Young Bucks and Lucha Bros. (and Andrade) do high spots.
It’s a roster with a bunch of wrestling styles. In many cases they work with their own internal logic beyond a few key guidelines.
Punk’s psychology is like Bret, Eddie’s is like old school AJPW, FTR like Midnight Express.
It’s weird to say it is a widespread problem when there isn’t a house style.
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Post by britishbulldog on Mar 8, 2022 20:53:22 GMT -5
This was my problem with Revolution in general. Read matches should just be tornado times cuz dear god everyone is in the ring the entire time. Too many spots that should end matches but not happening. After punk/mjf all the other blood was pointless and didn’t matter. I have no issues with blading but it was way over done and for me hurt the matches. I was excited for Revolution as I’m trying to get into AEW. But I won’t be buying another ppv site to issues like these. The blood imo was far from pointless. It played well into the fatigue MJF and Punk were selling in the match, along with their hurt limbs. Bryan and Mox was sold as a match where they would bleed together, literally in solidarity... it was telegraphed from the very beginning and it had a point. Regal butting heads with Moxley to get some blood on his own, enraged face, was one of the best visuals of the entire night. So I vehemently disagree on this point. I’m not arguing the storyline reasoning and logic. That was fine. My issue was it was what one match after the dog collar? For me it’s me diminishes returns. Had you not had the dog collar blood bath it would have been a bigger deal
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 8, 2022 20:59:07 GMT -5
The blood imo was far from pointless. It played well into the fatigue MJF and Punk were selling in the match, along with their hurt limbs. Bryan and Mox was sold as a match where they would bleed together, literally in solidarity... it was telegraphed from the very beginning and it had a point. Regal butting heads with Moxley to get some blood on his own, enraged face, was one of the best visuals of the entire night. So I vehemently disagree on this point. I’m not arguing the storyline reasoning and logic. That was fine. My issue was it was what one match after the dog collar? For me it’s me diminishes returns. Had you not had the dog collar blood bath it would have been a bigger deal I guess it didn't bother me as much because it was different circumstances too. The chain busted Punk and MJF open, the ferocity of their offense busted Mox open, was different kinds of ways to get to it, and present it. I thought them being the only matches with color made them stand out all the more so. No one in the ladder match bled, or that chaotic Trios match.
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Post by britishbulldog on Mar 8, 2022 21:10:51 GMT -5
I’m not arguing the storyline reasoning and logic. That was fine. My issue was it was what one match after the dog collar? For me it’s me diminishes returns. Had you not had the dog collar blood bath it would have been a bigger deal I guess it didn't bother me as much because it was different circumstances too. The chain busted Punk and MJF open, the ferocity of their offense busted Mox open, was different kinds of ways to get to it, and present it. I thought them being the only matches with color made them stand out all the more so. No one in the ladder match bled, or that chaotic Trios match. Oh I get it. Just my opinion. I finished the show and realized the reason I don’t watch much is I think the business has passed me by. I thought there was good things throughout but just felt it was a slog. But that’s just me.
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 8, 2022 21:11:28 GMT -5
This might sound weird, but I don't care about no-selling as long as it's consistent within the match. I can buy that the guys who did a tombstone on Sunday aren't as good at it as the Undertaker is because they don't have the experience of doing it thousands of times. I also can buy that wrestlers in the high octane, spotfest matches have adrenaline levels so high that things both don't connect as harshly and can be brushed off more easily than in the slower, more technical matches. Just don't mix it up in the same match. Stay consistent.
Ultimately, selling is just one of many ways to tell the story of a match. Some wrestlers and matches use other tools instead. Hogan used the no-sell for decades in his matches. I like the variety.
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Post by Terry McConkey on Mar 8, 2022 21:19:44 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels invented the Superkick, he knows how to win with it. The Bucks and such emulated it, they use it for flash, not for substance, not to kill someone with it. This is incorrect. "Gentleman" Chris Adams invented it before him.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 8, 2022 21:36:07 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels invented the Superkick, he knows how to win with it. The Bucks and such emulated it, they use it for flash, not for substance, not to kill someone with it. This is incorrect. "Gentleman" Chris Adams invented it before him. My mistake, but you get what I mean. Michaels perfected it, he used it with intent to end a match, where a lot of wrestlers these days, do not.
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