Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Mar 9, 2022 9:01:02 GMT -5
Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff? To me Jungle Boy is the main guy I notice kicking out of big moves and finishers, but never hear people say it about him. Either way I enjoy young bucks matches, but a lot of the time even if you don't there will be a different style match somewhere on the show that's a bit more psychology based Yeah, the Bucks usually have lots of pins broken up rather than kick outs.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Mar 9, 2022 9:46:28 GMT -5
It’s why I have regressed as a Sammy Guevara fan. You and me both.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Mar 9, 2022 9:57:01 GMT -5
I will put this on all of wrestling…
Selling and the psychology behind it have a place.
I realize things evolve and I get that sone moved that were once match enders are now near fall moves or even transition moves.
And I also get that there has to be a suspension of disbelief for this to work.
But almost being killed by a move or series of moved should keep you from acting like absolutely nothing happened 2-3 minutes later.
I don’t need guys barely kicking out and being basically unconscious half the match. But a middle ground between that and what we have now would be good.
Of course, all of that is my own opinion and that’s why they make vanilla snd chocolate ice cream - because you like shitty ice cream. 😁
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clifford
King Koopa
Shingo Takagi stan
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Post by clifford on Mar 9, 2022 10:11:19 GMT -5
Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff? To me Jungle Boy is the main guy I notice kicking out of big moves and finishers, but never hear people say it about him. Either way I enjoy young bucks matches, but a lot of the time even if you don't there will be a different style match somewhere on the show that's a bit more psychology based Don't get it either. There are so many more guys guilty of underselling. I honestly don't think most people who accuse the Bucks of it actually watch their matches.
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Mar 9, 2022 10:32:34 GMT -5
Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff? To me Jungle Boy is the main guy I notice kicking out of big moves and finishers, but never hear people say it about him. Either way I enjoy young bucks matches, but a lot of the time even if you don't there will be a different style match somewhere on the show that's a bit more psychology based Don't get it either. There are so many more guys guilty of underselling. I honestly don't think most people who accuse the Bucks of it actually watch their matches. Same, I have a friend who I was trying to get into AEW and one reason he hadn't was that he said Young Bucks put him off. I don't even know if he's watched any of their matches or just assumes stuff off their reputation. I don't see how anything they do is so unbelievable compared to everything else in the mental history of wrestling and wrestling characters. As for ring psychology and selling in general, I'm enjoying AEW too much to care or really notice, it's just so good to have a weekly show to watch again after all these years. And if I do notice something that's not great, me and my gf just have a giggle at it. Edit: In fact her, the non-fan, is actually far more likely to notice and give out about a lack of psychology than me now, the fan of 30+ years!
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 9, 2022 10:34:05 GMT -5
Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff? To me Jungle Boy is the main guy I notice kicking out of big moves and finishers, but never hear people say it about him. Either way I enjoy young bucks matches, but a lot of the time even if you don't there will be a different style match somewhere on the show that's a bit more psychology based Don't get it either. There are so many more guys guilty of underselling. I honestly don't think most people who accuse the Bucks of it actually watch their matches. 100% it's from people who either don't pay attention to their matches or can't keep up with them. They're supposed to be presented as one of the best teams in the world, so of course they keep fighting and coming back for more even as heels, but to say they don't sell is inherently wrong and I can explain the story to their big matches point by point. I honestly hate it and it just takes me out of matches when it happens. You’ve got these indestructible guys spamming moves that would kill you in real life. Wrestling is all about the suspension of belief and it just kills it. It’s like you need a f***ing bazooka to take out a Young Buck these days. Ridiculous. Wrestling has never, ever been about suspension of belief, unless you meant to say "disbelief".
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 9, 2022 11:10:29 GMT -5
I do agree that AEW, at times, does feel like the epitome of the “arms race” of big moves and wow spots that Hiroshi Tanahashi talked about in his book. The type that results in injuries and diminishing returns after a short term dopamine hit. I also do still get annoyed at the way some in AEW set up their spots. I’ll concede that right off the bat. That said, I feel like the psychology and storytelling in AEW is the best it’s ever been. Especially over the past few PPVs. I mean, it doesn’t get much better than the Dog Collar, Kingston/Jericho and Mox/Danielson matches in that regard. In terms of selling I do think that there are some who simply just don’t understand the concept at all(looking at you, Sammy) but, I think we need to manage our expectations in terms of what selling is and should be in 2022. Over the last couple of decades, we’ve seen the advent and rise of a sport that is the closest thing to real life Pro Wrestling there will ever be in Mixed Martial Arts. We’ve seen the effect it has in terms of real fighting and it doesn’t always work the way pro wrestling has classically portrayed it. I’ve seen guys get slammed right on their heads on those hard mats in MMA and barely register it. For that reason, I feel as though we need to reevaluate what selling is in today’s pro wrestling landscape. I think, overall, AEW does a pretty decent job of that. It’s not perfect but, it’s not as “business exposing” as some would make it out to be. I do think there's an overdue discussion to be had about what the nature of pro wrestling selling is, especially now in a wrestling marketplace where there's so much more exposure to traditions and styles from around the world, as well as easier access to older material. What's considered "normal" selling in some places looks cartoonish and absurd elsewhere, while "normal" selling elsewhere may look "immersion breaking" to others more familiar with a different approach. It really is a discussion that could go on for pages and pages, if we're being real, so I'm sure I'm going to miss some things that could be very relevant here, but yeah, things like getting more exposure to Japanese wrestling and seeing how MMA grew and developed since the early 2000s has definitely had an impact on how I view selling in American wrestling. For years there was this basic expectation of "you got hit by a move, stay down for awhile", or "if a body part gets worked you have to sell it like that limb (or your back, etc.) is falling off", and while that's absolutely a style of selling I still appreciate and don't mind seeing in a match at all, it doesn't change that in real fights things like adrenaline can cause a delayed onset of pain, or that not every piece of offense will succeed in injuring an opponent to the point that, say, their left arm becomes unusable, since people simply sometimes have higher pain thresholds. In this way, MMA and real combat sports provide a new template that people can copy. Hell, I'm not even that big a fan, but ever since MMA got big I've had a harder and harder time watching submission attempts in pro wrestling matches where someone keeps a hold on for an ungodly amount of time and the other guy doesn't give up; we now know how quick people are to tap in real life, and what the consequences are if you try to hold on for too long while a submission is fully and effectively applied. In Japan, meanwhile, the more typical selling narrative involves a dramatic storytelling style in which the crowd responds to a wrestler's ability to fight through pain and exhaustion, sort of the stereotypical shonen anime protagonist using the last of their strength to throw everything they have at their foe and then collapsing in a heap afterwards. This obviously has different interpretations; Inoki's more sports-like Strong Style approach didn't have quite the over the top grandeur of Baba booking King's Road main events, but neither places as heavy an emphasis on, say, selling a body part, and both often involved wrestlers taking lots of damage but then powering through back to their feet to deliver their own offense. As an audience, you're encouraged to feel connected to their struggle less via sympathy for their agony, and more via excitement at the potential they still have any gas left in the tank to fight back. Mexico has its own approach; it's another place where the idea of "sell a limb" or whatever really isn't emphasized, as lucha libre often comes off more like, for lack of a better description, a sort of dramatic form of dance, mixed with the simulated violence. The core concept of tecnico vs. rudo and the borderline spiritual significance that might be assigned to those battles is more invested in whatever generates the highest level of drama in a way that places human limitations as a secondary concern. What we're living through now, I think, is a generation of wrestlers who've had influences from all over time and space, in a way that simply wasn't realistic in the old days given limitations on what wrestling media was available to most people. There are growing pains involved, but by and large I think there's a lot of strong ways a modern style is being integrated. One challenge: moving past the old style where there's really only one main form of selling, and yet maintaining a consistent enough in-ring approach for your company that fans can develop a general sense of expectations around your "house style". That's tough to do when a lot of your wrestlers are drawing from a huge variety of influences and not all necessarily reading from the same text, so to speak; you see a lot more consistency out of, say, Japanese dojos, where students get a similar rearing in thee things. Another: doing things that might feel like they're stretching some audience members' credulity, but making sure you're coordinating enough with your announcers so that they know how to get across why, say, Adam Cole couldn't put Hangman away with some of his signature spots; like, I thought Excalibur did well to point out Cole not rolling down his kneepad on the Boom, thus sacrificing impact for speed/momentum, but I'd have liked to hear them emphasize, for example, that a lot of Cole's pins left Hangman's shoulders too free to shoot up, which can be cited as going for a quicker pin rather than a more solid pin. Little things like this offer a very logical reason why something didn't put someone away; like, my headcanon for why Cody would need 2-3 CrossRhodes to win a match but Kenny could use a single One-Winged Angel is that one move is quick and easy to snap off, but thus likely less impactful, while the other takes longer to set up and is easier to escape from, but if it connects the match is over. In other cases you can have wrestlers who, again, "trade technique for quickness" and thus don't hit something fully, or play up someone's kayfabe exhaustion as a reason why their technique is off. I made a thread awhile back about how important I think pinning technique is in getting across ring psychology, so I'm just restating some of that here. By and large I think AEW does a solid job with this most of the time; they clearly are influenced by modern New Japan in terms of wanting most matches to have a discernible story being told via what moves, expressions, callbacks, etc. are done, and they've had some gems in their first few years. There are definitely some areas where I feel it can be better; I hate to do it, but for example I have to join the chorus of those who think Sammy Guevara takes it too far. I get that Sammy wants to get across his face character as being a daredevil who's too unafraid of risk for his own good, but then we're getting matches with him that involve death moves off the top rope that lead to kickouts without even including the basic pacing of having a long gap between said death move and the pin attempt. I'd even argue that Adam Cole pushes it too far sometimes, albeit not to the same extent, but there was a moment or two in that main event the other night where a kickout happened from him that I didn't totally buy within the context of the match's story. Long story short: I think any form of selling can be ok, but you have to work hard to justify it within the framework of the story and psychology your match is expressing, and you really should work closely with your announcers, your cameramen, your directors, etc. to provide visual and audio cues that can show how/why a particular big move or spot didn't lead to a successful three count.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 9, 2022 14:11:59 GMT -5
Add me to the people not understanding why the young bucks are the ones usually singled out? Maybe I'm not paying attention but isn't it more than they break up pins after big moves rather than they kick out of stuff? The big reason is probably influence from someone whose name rhymes with Tim Dornette. They just parrot what he says and even if you sit them down to watch a Bucks match, the preconceived bias is already there.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
Blanket burrito season is back, and I never left the blankets
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 9, 2022 14:23:21 GMT -5
Saying the Bucks don't know psychology is like saying that Michael Bay doesn't know how to direct a movie. Even if you don't like the result, it was done that way intentionally, and it took arguably more skill to make it bad in that way than to make it good in a simpler way.
Like, I get brain-shutdown overstim from both (the Bucks less often), but it's not the result of incompetence.
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Dave the Dave
Fry's dog Seymour
Knows too much
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Post by Dave the Dave on Mar 9, 2022 14:37:54 GMT -5
It usually doesn’t bother me. During Revolution though my fiancée said, “He’s kicked Hangman in the head like 60 times. He should be dead.”
I get that’s a little broad of a complaint, but maybe if it’s varied enough it’s less noticeable?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 9, 2022 16:51:33 GMT -5
Wardlow being alone to climb the ladder and deciding to jump out the ring instead was even worse. I'm not gonna put too much heat on that, Cassidy got f***ed and it threw off the ending of the match pretty hard, and that was probably why I also took that specifically as Wardlow was just amped up and angry and wanted to wreck shit. Sometimes people make dumb decisions in the heat of the moment.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 9, 2022 16:55:18 GMT -5
It usually doesn’t bother me. During Revolution though my fiancée said, “He’s kicked Hangman in the head like 60 times. He should be dead.” I get that’s a little broad of a complaint, but maybe if it’s varied enough it’s less noticeable? I mean if we're being "Realistic" matches would be over after like 2 good punches. It's scripted violence it's meant to be dramatic not realistic... like how in movies guys can get shot point blank and still ... move.
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Post by lavelleuk22 on Mar 9, 2022 16:55:46 GMT -5
I'm not gonna put too much heat on that, Cassidy got f***ed and it threw off the ending of the match pretty hard, and that was probably why I also took that specifically as Wardlow was just amped up and angry and wanted to wreck shit. Sometimes people make dumb decisions in the heat of the moment. Plus for me if the choice was between making extra sure the other guys are down and out, or risk getting pushed off a ladder whilst standing on top of it I know which I'd choose lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2022 17:03:36 GMT -5
The thing is, in an objective way, I agree with this criticism. Pro wrestling thrives on the suspension of disbelief/verisimilitude. It can't exist without it. And a tombstone piledriver on the apron of a ring not immediately ending a match in a KO and a trip to the hospital is not a very believable thing.
But where do you draw that line? "Old school" fans are, apparently, perfectly willing to accept that Irish Whips are just a thing that happen, or that rolling over a Figure Four, somehow "reverses the pressure," but Canadian destroyers and "choreographed" tag team moves are a bridge too far?
Wrestling, like every other art form, evolves over time. Pro wrestling in 2022 is not what it was in 1987 and, I'm sorry, but no one will ever convince me that a Young Bucks double-team is any dumber or less believable than a standard Irish Whip. Psychology now is just different than it was then. The drama of selling injuries to body parts has been replaced with the adrenaline rush of near falls and high spots. It's a product of CrashTV in the late 90s, and it's a cat that's never going back into the bag.
So, yeah, if the criticism is that some AEW matches don't resemble real fights, I get it. But, I guess I'm just not sure there's been a wrestling match that truly resembles a "real fight" since the days of, like, Strangler Lewis.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Mar 9, 2022 17:04:38 GMT -5
Matt Jackson has been selling the same back injury for 4 years..............
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 9, 2022 17:07:33 GMT -5
But where do you draw that line? "Old school" fans are, apparently, perfectly willing to accept that Irish Whips are just a thing that happen, or that rolling over a Figure Four, somehow "reverses the pressure," but Canadian destroyers and "choreographed" tag team moves are a bridge too far? Just want to point out that rolling over actually does. now the person doing the moves legs are on the bottom and are taking all the force of the stretch... I mean... since you're the one doing it you can easily pull your legs free (which seems to illude wrestlers) but... it does work
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Post by eJm on Mar 9, 2022 17:11:14 GMT -5
But where do you draw that line? "Old school" fans are, apparently, perfectly willing to accept that Irish Whips are just a thing that happen, or that rolling over a Figure Four, somehow "reverses the pressure," but Canadian destroyers and "choreographed" tag team moves are a bridge too far? Just want to point out that rolling over actually does. now the person doing the moves legs are on the bottom and are taking all the force of the stretch... I mean... since you're the one doing it you can easily pull your legs free (which seems to illude wrestlers) but... it does work Yeah, having actually been in a figure four and reversed it and Vice versa…it actually does work that way and hurts like heck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2022 17:13:53 GMT -5
But where do you draw that line? "Old school" fans are, apparently, perfectly willing to accept that Irish Whips are just a thing that happen, or that rolling over a Figure Four, somehow "reverses the pressure," but Canadian destroyers and "choreographed" tag team moves are a bridge too far? Just want to point out that rolling over actually does. now the person doing the moves legs are on the bottom and are taking all the force of the stretch... I mean... since you're the one doing it you can easily pull your legs free (which seems to illude wrestlers but... it does work Well, I mean, your knees are now on the ground , which hurts, but like you said, just let go. It was just one of the first goofy “classic” wrestling spots I thought of. Magically having a surge of adrenaline that negates the effects of having been put in a sleeper hold and knocked out after having your arm raised twice is another one.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Mar 9, 2022 17:17:40 GMT -5
It usually doesn’t bother me. During Revolution though my fiancée said, “He’s kicked Hangman in the head like 60 times. He should be dead.” I get that’s a little broad of a complaint, but maybe if it’s varied enough it’s less noticeable? I mean if we're being "Realistic" matches would be over after like 2 good punches. It's scripted violence it's meant to be dramatic not realistic... like how in movies guys can get shot point blank and still ... move. If we are being "realistic" How many times we have seen "OH HE IS ALONE HE IS GONNA DO IT BUT WAIT SOMEONE CAME RUNNING FROM RINGSIDE AND PUSHED THE LADDER" Same thing for when the beefy dudes took fight far from the ring, its a risk but you made sure two opponents were completely out of the picture
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Dave the Dave
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Post by Dave the Dave on Mar 9, 2022 17:23:22 GMT -5
It usually doesn’t bother me. During Revolution though my fiancée said, “He’s kicked Hangman in the head like 60 times. He should be dead.” I get that’s a little broad of a complaint, but maybe if it’s varied enough it’s less noticeable? I mean if we're being "Realistic" matches would be over after like 2 good punches. It's scripted violence it's meant to be dramatic not realistic... like how in movies guys can get shot point blank and still ... move. Sure. I understand that. I'm on this board, I know how it works and don't really need an explanation. This is from a lady who watches wrestling every few months. To her, in this entire 5 hour show of things that aren't realistic, she thought that was the dumbest one and it stood out to her. What I was asking, and it can relate to the tombstone spots too, if people are more careful about their no selling or psychology and don't repeat stuff over and over, maybe that would be better to people? I guess the OP and others expressing concern could answer that best.
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