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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Apr 2, 2022 20:06:50 GMT -5
They always keep saying that the Brand is the draw. So if that’s the case, how much does Roman Reigns contribute these record profits. If they chose Mox to be the star of The Shield instead of Roman, would there be much of a difference?
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Post by Cyno on Apr 2, 2022 20:12:06 GMT -5
WWE is making record profits thanks to the House of Saud and incredible TV deals, not because of any one wrestler having a lot of drawing power.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 21:13:01 GMT -5
While he may have not been a draw, dude is one of the greatest workers of all time. In my worthless opinion, HBK's worst match is still better than anything from today's WWE. I mean even wrestlers that think Shawn is a dick admit that he's one of the best in ring workers to ever do it... If you ask most wrestlers today who inspired them to start wrestling, they'll probably say HBK and/or Bret. It could change by the end of his career, but I seriously doubt Roman's had that impact in wrestling.
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Post by sportatorium on Apr 2, 2022 23:20:21 GMT -5
I have nothing against Roman, but if he had to go out and do half of what either of them do, he simply couldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 23:25:48 GMT -5
I wouldn't even place him above the other members of the Shield.
He's not bad, but a mega-push is the only thing separating him from the rest of the roster.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 3, 2022 2:49:37 GMT -5
I mean even wrestlers that think Shawn is a dick admit that he's one of the best in ring workers to ever do it... If you ask most wrestlers today who inspired them to start wrestling, they'll probably say HBK and/or Bret. It could change by the end of his career, but I seriously doubt Roman's had that impact in wrestling. This is also a massively important facet of why this question has some flaws. HBK and Bret aren't considered all-timers because of their mega drawing power or lengthy periods on top. Hell, HBK's legendary '00s rebirth saw him hold the WHC for less than a month, and then he never got top gold again. He was always a big deal, sure, but Top 5 Guy is not the same. But both guys held gold in the '90s during some pretty bleak times. Arguably, things would have gone worse without them, that's an argument people make. But trying to argue box office for HBK and Bret is kind of like pulling out album sales to try and say Sonic Youth's influence is overstated. It's very definitely not, you're just considering criteria nobody else is talking about. Modern American wrestling owes its style to those two men, who were easily the best workers of their era and it wasn't even close. I'm not gonna say explicitly that Roman isn't even a top 5 best worker on Smackdown, but peeking at the roster, I think there's at least compelling alternatives that'd bump him off the list entirely. I don't think we see a generation of Roman wannabes who come up wanting to model themselves after this man.
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 3, 2022 7:25:26 GMT -5
Depends on the criteria.
If we’re talking in WWE kayfabe, in importance/star power, then yes absolutely. That’s like a Mount Rushmore of Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, Roman.
If we’re talking about in-ring talent, then no. Those are two of the greatest wrestlers of all time.
If we’re talking about non-kayfabe drawing ability, it’s more of a close call as neither Shawn or Bret were known for being draws at all, and nowadays the brand is the draw in large part (though Lesnar and Reigns do seem to move the needle relative to their peers).
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Apr 3, 2022 8:34:17 GMT -5
HBK could come (back) out of retirement tomorrow and outclass Roman in every single way.
Bret's "execution" of wrestling moves and psychology is second to none. All Roman does is walk so slowly to the ring Undertaker is (under)taking notes, then hits moves, talks shit, hits more moves, talks more shit. Wins match. I find it entertaining, but no he's not in the same league as either guy. Not even close.
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Feyrhausen
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 3, 2022 9:31:20 GMT -5
Bret and HBK were on top during the years WWF almost went under while Roman has been on top during WWEs most profitable years.
But Bret and HBK were on top and integral parts of 1997. And that blows anything Roman has ever done out of the water.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 3, 2022 9:40:32 GMT -5
They always keep saying that the Brand is the draw. So if that’s the case, how much does Roman Reigns contribute these record profits. If they chose Mox to be the star of The Shield instead of Roman, would there be much of a difference? Yeah I don’t think you can even gauge Roman’s drawing power because the landscape is so much different. They just did 10,000+ in an arena for their developmental brand for a noon local show and 70,000+ in a stadium for a show Roman wasn’t even on. They sure weren’t going to do that in 1995.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Apr 3, 2022 10:56:22 GMT -5
Vince McMahon was so desperate to keep Bret Hart, he was willing to offer him a 20-year deal. Now, Vince McMahon can replace Roman Reigns in the main event of Wrestlemania with a weeks notice. I won't go as far as to say "/thread" but
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Post by robferatu on Apr 3, 2022 14:02:44 GMT -5
In terms of mainstream appeal, yes, but in regards as importance to the company, no.
Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart carried the company through some dark years before the “Attitude” era caught fire. I honestly look at both of them as the spark that ignited that fire, and obviously Steve Austin was the gasoline that turned it into a full blown eruption.
However, say what you will about the state of the company now, but the WWE is a global brand now and there’s a series discussion that could be had about Roman Reigns being a bigger worldwide name in the post-aughts era of wrestling fans than Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart.
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krozor
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Post by krozor on Apr 3, 2022 14:52:48 GMT -5
The problem with/for Reigns is that he's spent seven years getting a main event push at the Hogan level with nothing to show for it. It's going to have taken him seven years to do thing he was supposed to do in his first main event: beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. That's crazy. Every main event he's had has been an attempt to give him a Crowning Moment that either failed or didn't take.
31: crowd rejects the push, they panic, Seth swoops into the Brock match and wins instead. 32: HHH tries to "make" him and fails horribly by doing a boring HHH slog that plays to HHH's perceived strengths (which are actually weaknesses) instead of Roman's strengths. Match is a bust. 33: beats Undertaker (slightly undermined by Brock having broken the Streak first), gets a real reaction...that they completely fail to capitalize on because they don't turn him heel, which they needed to do for two years running at this point already and even the least observant booker would have seen the money in at this point 34: gets the Brock rematch, still being rejected by the crowd but everyone has been beaten down enough to go into it thinking "OK, fine, just do it, let him win, let's get the moment out of the way"...and he LOSES. And doesn't even turn heel over it. The show just ends with him slowly walking out a loser to a confused crowd. One of the most baffling main event decisions of all time. 37: He's back, finally turned heel, finally doing things people enjoy, proving that they should have done what people had been saying since 31 all along - the downside here is that it instantly became clear this was just a stop in a new death march to a match either a year or two years away against The Rock that probably never happens anyway 38: Finally, all these years and all these main events later, they'll pull the trigger and give Roman his crowning moment while just making it a stepping stone for his new real Crowning Moment next year against The Rock...if it happens. And if it does, I honestly think he's a part timer by the end of WM40, going off to act like Rock and Cena before him, so ALL of this for a guy who's probably ready to find something better to do by the time you get that "Moment".
Imagine if the first Wrestlemania had ended with Orndorff and Piper winning with Piper pinning Mr. T, and Wrestlemania IV ended with Hogan winning the tournament but losing to a returning Piper in the finals, only for Hogan to finally beat Piper at Wrestlemania VI and then going mostly part time himself for another year or two before leaving. That's what Roman's run is going to end up feeling like, I think.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Apr 3, 2022 14:56:31 GMT -5
Depends on the criteria. If we’re talking in WWE kayfabe, in importance/star power, then yes absolutely. That’s like a Mount Rushmore of Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, Roman. If we’re talking about in-ring talent, then no. Those are two of the greatest wrestlers of all time. If we’re talking about non-kayfabe drawing ability, it’s more of a close call as neither Shawn or Bret were known for being draws at all, and nowadays the brand is the draw in large part (though Lesnar and Reigns do seem to move the needle relative to their peers). Bret was a huge draw overseas actually. And it’s not like he could not draw in the USA either. The thing is that he and HBK were on top in an era where business was down across the board. IDK that it was specifically their fault.
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 3, 2022 15:01:57 GMT -5
At this point, I would. I feel it's between him and Hogan for all time greatest.
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khali
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Post by khali on Apr 3, 2022 15:54:37 GMT -5
The problem with/for Reigns is that he's spent seven years getting a main event push at the Hogan level with nothing to show for it. It's going to have taken him seven years to do thing he was supposed to do in his first main event: beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. That's crazy. Every main event he's had has been an attempt to give him a Crowning Moment that either failed or didn't take. 31: crowd rejects the push, they panic, Seth swoops into the Brock match and wins instead. 32: HHH tries to "make" him and fails horribly by doing a boring HHH slog that plays to HHH's perceived strengths (which are actually weaknesses) instead of Roman's strengths. Match is a bust. 33: beats Undertaker (slightly undermined by Brock having broken the Streak first), gets a real reaction...that they completely fail to capitalize on because they don't turn him heel, which they needed to do for two years running at this point already and even the least observant booker would have seen the money in at this point 34: gets the Brock rematch, still being rejected by the crowd but everyone has been beaten down enough to go into it thinking "OK, fine, just do it, let him win, let's get the moment out of the way"...and he LOSES. And doesn't even turn heel over it. The show just ends with him slowly walking out a loser to a confused crowd. One of the most baffling main event decisions of all time. 37: He's back, finally turned heel, finally doing things people enjoy, proving that they should have done what people had been saying since 31 all along - the downside here is that it instantly became clear this was just a stop in a new death march to a match either a year or two years away against The Rock that probably never happens anyway 38: Finally, all these years and all these main events later, they'll pull the trigger and give Roman his crowning moment while just making it a stepping stone for his new real Crowning Moment next year against The Rock...if it happens. And if it does, I honestly think he's a part timer by the end of WM40, going off to act like Rock and Cena before him, so ALL of this for a guy who's probably ready to find something better to do by the time you get that "Moment". Imagine if the first Wrestlemania had ended with Orndorff and Piper winning with Piper pinning Mr. T, and Wrestlemania IV ended with Hogan winning the tournament but losing to a returning Piper in the finals, only for Hogan to finally beat Piper at Wrestlemania VI and then going mostly part time himself for another year or two before leaving. That's what Roman's run is going to end up feeling like, I think. When it’s all laid out there, it’s really striking how many years we had main events of the crowd crapping on his feud and/or him.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 3, 2022 16:43:45 GMT -5
The problem with/for Reigns is that he's spent seven years getting a main event push at the Hogan level with nothing to show for it. It's going to have taken him seven years to do thing he was supposed to do in his first main event: beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. That's crazy. Every main event he's had has been an attempt to give him a Crowning Moment that either failed or didn't take. 31: crowd rejects the push, they panic, Seth swoops into the Brock match and wins instead. 32: HHH tries to "make" him and fails horribly by doing a boring HHH slog that plays to HHH's perceived strengths (which are actually weaknesses) instead of Roman's strengths. Match is a bust. 33: beats Undertaker (slightly undermined by Brock having broken the Streak first), gets a real reaction...that they completely fail to capitalize on because they don't turn him heel, which they needed to do for two years running at this point already and even the least observant booker would have seen the money in at this point 34: gets the Brock rematch, still being rejected by the crowd but everyone has been beaten down enough to go into it thinking "OK, fine, just do it, let him win, let's get the moment out of the way"...and he LOSES. And doesn't even turn heel over it. The show just ends with him slowly walking out a loser to a confused crowd. One of the most baffling main event decisions of all time. 37: He's back, finally turned heel, finally doing things people enjoy, proving that they should have done what people had been saying since 31 all along - the downside here is that it instantly became clear this was just a stop in a new death march to a match either a year or two years away against The Rock that probably never happens anyway 38: Finally, all these years and all these main events later, they'll pull the trigger and give Roman his crowning moment while just making it a stepping stone for his new real Crowning Moment next year against The Rock...if it happens. And if it does, I honestly think he's a part timer by the end of WM40, going off to act like Rock and Cena before him, so ALL of this for a guy who's probably ready to find something better to do by the time you get that "Moment". Imagine if the first Wrestlemania had ended with Orndorff and Piper winning with Piper pinning Mr. T, and Wrestlemania IV ended with Hogan winning the tournament but losing to a returning Piper in the finals, only for Hogan to finally beat Piper at Wrestlemania VI and then going mostly part time himself for another year or two before leaving. That's what Roman's run is going to end up feeling like, I think. People keep saying him and Sasha are going to leave and go into movies any second now... and I'm kinda wondering where the train of thought is coming from. Both were in things yeah... but neither seemed like they lit the world on fire with their performances. I mean they could certainly try... but the list of wrestlers that turned actors that are actually successful is minuscule... Roman does have a little leg up with Rock obviously but that's only going to get him so far.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 3, 2022 16:45:25 GMT -5
The problem with/for Reigns is that he's spent seven years getting a main event push at the Hogan level with nothing to show for it. It's going to have taken him seven years to do thing he was supposed to do in his first main event: beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. That's crazy. Every main event he's had has been an attempt to give him a Crowning Moment that either failed or didn't take. 31: crowd rejects the push, they panic, Seth swoops into the Brock match and wins instead. 32: HHH tries to "make" him and fails horribly by doing a boring HHH slog that plays to HHH's perceived strengths (which are actually weaknesses) instead of Roman's strengths. Match is a bust. 33: beats Undertaker (slightly undermined by Brock having broken the Streak first), gets a real reaction...that they completely fail to capitalize on because they don't turn him heel, which they needed to do for two years running at this point already and even the least observant booker would have seen the money in at this point 34: gets the Brock rematch, still being rejected by the crowd but everyone has been beaten down enough to go into it thinking "OK, fine, just do it, let him win, let's get the moment out of the way"...and he LOSES. And doesn't even turn heel over it. The show just ends with him slowly walking out a loser to a confused crowd. One of the most baffling main event decisions of all time. 37: He's back, finally turned heel, finally doing things people enjoy, proving that they should have done what people had been saying since 31 all along - the downside here is that it instantly became clear this was just a stop in a new death march to a match either a year or two years away against The Rock that probably never happens anyway 38: Finally, all these years and all these main events later, they'll pull the trigger and give Roman his crowning moment while just making it a stepping stone for his new real Crowning Moment next year against The Rock...if it happens. And if it does, I honestly think he's a part timer by the end of WM40, going off to act like Rock and Cena before him, so ALL of this for a guy who's probably ready to find something better to do by the time you get that "Moment". Imagine if the first Wrestlemania had ended with Orndorff and Piper winning with Piper pinning Mr. T, and Wrestlemania IV ended with Hogan winning the tournament but losing to a returning Piper in the finals, only for Hogan to finally beat Piper at Wrestlemania VI and then going mostly part time himself for another year or two before leaving. That's what Roman's run is going to end up feeling like, I think. When it’s all laid out there, it’s really striking how many years we had main events of the crowd crapping on his feud and/or him. Also shows one of the reasons the top of the card is in the dire straits it is... they've been sacrificing EVERYONE to Roman and Brock for over 7 years at this point...
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krozor
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Post by krozor on Apr 3, 2022 16:59:08 GMT -5
People keep saying him and Sasha are going to leave and go into movies any second now... and I'm kinda wondering where the train of thought is coming from. Both were in things yeah... but neither seemed like they lit the world on fire with their performances. I mean they could certainly try... but the list of wrestlers that turned actors that are actually successful is minuscule... Roman does have a little leg up with Rock obviously but that's only going to get him so far. It's a fair question for sure, and I'm certainly making assumptions about his personal feelings, but: he has the connections, there's not a whole lot more for him to do after getting this nearly seven-year push while simultaneously probably being pretty miserable being hated for most of it because they booked him so horribly, and I can't help but think he's noticed the good will Cena has picked up in Hollywood, where they actually play to all that charisma that he rarely got to use for years as the pre-Reigns Reigns. There's also his health issues that might give him perspective. Roman used to be the WWE mouthpiece - he was the one who used to do all those awful public interviews that eventually Seth "food off my table" Rollins took over for him. When he's not in character now, he seems to more like that chill guy everyone backstage loves, and I wonder if his perspective has been changed after going through so much heavy life stuff.
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Post by dgenerationmc on Apr 3, 2022 21:31:25 GMT -5
I'd rather wait until Roman is officially done before comparing him to retired legends.
Just out of fairness.
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