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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 21, 2022 16:02:35 GMT -5
I find it generally probably the most exhausting part of the company, if only because usually the obvious route isn't one I particularly want to see.
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Post by sunnytaker on Apr 21, 2022 16:20:44 GMT -5
I don't think anyone thought Jungle Boy was losing.. in hindsight it does make sense though. JB has the tag titles to defend and he can't do that while doing the owen tourney at the same time given how much tv time is available they don;t need anyone doing double duty. brian cage beating the #1 ranked hangman page was a big shocker to me. but then again it was too early to pull omega/page at the time so they needed to bump hangman down the ranks.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 22, 2022 8:30:22 GMT -5
I think they strike a very agreeable balance between predictable winners and turns and shocking swerves.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 22, 2022 9:20:11 GMT -5
I successfully predicted all 11 match results at Revolution this year. It was still one of the best PPVs I've ever seen. But yeah, they could with do the occasional unexpected result. Last time that happened was when Brian Cage pinned Hangman clean. I got one prediction from Revolution outright wrong and that ended up being the most disappointing match of the night for me (Baker beating Rosa with tons of interference).
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Bad Moon
Unicron
for reasons known only to the goblins that live in my brain
Posts: 3,091
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Post by Bad Moon on Apr 22, 2022 9:23:52 GMT -5
I don't care if I know ahead of time who's going to win as long as it's the person who should win.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,679
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Post by Kalmia on Apr 22, 2022 9:33:18 GMT -5
I'm largely okay with it. I wouldn't mind the occasional unpredictable result, or hard-to-call match, but there's usually a logical reason behind everything. I'd rather have logical booking that's easy to predict than made up on the fly, swerves for the sake of swerves booking.
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Post by Jacy Derangement Syndrome on Apr 22, 2022 9:38:26 GMT -5
It's a bit much for me honestly. I don't need them to start doing Russo swerves for fun like oh shit Fuego Del Sol's pregnant with Malakai Black's inner child but I wanna actually bite on an AEW false finish once in awhile.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,156
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Apr 22, 2022 9:48:28 GMT -5
I think AEW has a good balance tbh. Jungle Boy losing, Hangman getting pinned by Cage, etc. But they make sure that logic follows through with storylines. Yes, Page was always going to be the one to take the title off Omega but the story getting there was terrific to me, minus booking the 10-man elimination match in the first place, and ultimately the mega heel lost to the universally loved face.
Hate to use WWE in these for comparison because it comes off as tribalism a bit but it's apt to me. You have the current Roman run where he's the mega heel but there doesn't seem to be a cut and dry answer to who will dethrone him. Cody maybe? The Rock? *eyeroll* Even when a few years ago Brock was holding the title hostage there was at least a general idea who would take the title (usually Roman but still). The problem there (besides the title disappearing for months and Roman being the one to take the title) was there wasn't much of a story to go along side it. Brock comes back, kills a guys momentum, and then leaves.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Apr 22, 2022 9:59:12 GMT -5
Predictability is okay when you know it's what your audience wants to see. I know the Attitude Era comparisons are done to death, but there isn't a person alive who thought anyone other than Steve Austin was winning the 98 Rumble and subsequently the title at Wrestlemania. And that's fine. It's what the masses wanted.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 22, 2022 10:33:27 GMT -5
I think people confuse predictability with boring. A lot of wrestling booking is fairly predictable in results its just how the results are obtained that causes issues. Now AEW has bumps in the roads but usually how the final destination is obtained ends up being a hit.
I think that's where WWE has had issues where things tend to just end suddenly. Where as I think companies like AEW. RoH, and even New Japan have maybe waited too long at times to pull the trigger on a hot act (or in AEW's instance just stretching things a bit too long)
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Post by Mid-Carder on Apr 22, 2022 11:22:17 GMT -5
Predictability is okay when you know it's what your audience wants to see. I know the Attitude Era comparisons are done to death, but there isn't a person alive who thought anyone other than Steve Austin was winning the 98 Rumble and subsequently the title at Wrestlemania. And that's fine. It's what the masses wanted. This is it exactly. Think how differently fans would have reacted if WWE had gone the predictable route for Mania 30 and given Bryan the win. Fans were buzzing and it was a fun show right up until they had the rug pulled from under them. Fans would have left the show excited and happy about Bryan winning the Rumble, rather than complaining that it was predictable.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 22, 2022 11:41:18 GMT -5
Predictability is okay when you know it's what your audience wants to see. I know the Attitude Era comparisons are done to death, but there isn't a person alive who thought anyone other than Steve Austin was winning the 98 Rumble and subsequently the title at Wrestlemania. And that's fine. It's what the masses wanted. Hell, many would argue that the symbolic turning point of the Monday Night War, not where the ratings shifted so much as the general vibe of the era really turned, was WCW not giving fans the predictable outcome they wanted, i.e. not just having Sting cleanly beat Hogan for the title at Starrcade '97, followed almost immediately a few weeks later by WWF having Austin win the Rumble and then go on to dethrone Michaels without much drama in March. Now granted, that's the main event scene; one could argue that more experimentation and unpredictability can happen in the midcard, and to some degree it should, but there's a lot of complaints these days about how WWE doesn't "organically build stars up", and one of the key ways to do that in your booking is to introduce a young/newer act to your audience and let the crowd watch them grow from people who either lose much of the time or at least don't win "the big one" (whatever would could as "big" at that stage of their career) to someone who's expected to win most of the time. You do that by having predictability in your booking: Wrestler 1 is a "Tier C" character, while Wrestler 2 is "Tier B", so Wrestler 2 should logically win the vast majority of the time...until the day they don't, at which point Wrestler 1 might just make that jump to Tiers B or A or whatever. Again, I do think you can vary things up a bit in the midcard even with that context, but I get using it as a baseline for building stars over time.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,109
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 22, 2022 11:44:40 GMT -5
It's a bit much for me honestly. I don't need them to start doing Russo swerves for fun like oh shit Fuego Del Sol's pregnant with Malakai Black's inner child but I wanna actually bite on an AEW false finish once in awhile. Why not? Pregnant Fuego (Prego Del Sol?) = NEW BOOM PERIOD.
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Post by Jacy Derangement Syndrome on Apr 22, 2022 11:46:45 GMT -5
It's a bit much for me honestly. I don't need them to start doing Russo swerves for fun like oh shit Fuego Del Sol's pregnant with Malakai Black's inner child but I wanna actually bite on an AEW false finish once in awhile. Why not? Pregnant Fuego (Prego Del Sol?) = NEW BOOM PERIOD. Brody King runs in to Prego like STOP TELLING YOUR LIES but then Malakai in tears stops Brody like DON'T HURT MY BABY then him and Buddy look at eachother like.....zamn.....
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 22, 2022 11:47:30 GMT -5
I think predictability is a very, very underrated aspect of good wrestling booking. Like a lot of things, the late 90s kind of poisoned the well on that for some people, but it's so important to establish baseline expectations on your show (e.g. "so and so is a level about his opponent, he should win this match") so that when you do finally pull the trigger on a surprise outcome it hits like a ton of bricks. The ultimate example of this was in 2012: freshly returned from excursion Okada, fresh off looking a bit like a goof in his Wrestle Kingdom match against similarly returning YOSHI HASHI, challenges Tanahashi, the friggin' untouchable ace, for the title. He then comes out the next month looking fresh and new and @#$%ing wins, stunning everyone, because that shit just doesn't happen.Very well said. Properly booked wrestling should be predictable 90-95% of the time, at least in terms of conclusion. It’s the actual story beats in between that keep it fresh, but you should generally know who’s winning a mile away especially if you’re a long time fan. Changing or booking finishes to be shockingly solely for the sake of being shocking is very rarely a good idea. Even things people call surprising, and I usually point to Eddie beating Brock and Benoit beating Hunter in 2004, were usually the logical conclusion to the stories being told.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Apr 22, 2022 12:23:22 GMT -5
Predictability is okay when you know it's what your audience wants to see. I know the Attitude Era comparisons are done to death, but there isn't a person alive who thought anyone other than Steve Austin was winning the 98 Rumble and subsequently the title at Wrestlemania. And that's fine. It's what the masses wanted. Hell, many would argue that the symbolic turning point of the Monday Night War, not where the ratings shifted so much as the general vibe of the era really turned, was WCW not giving fans the predictable outcome they wanted, i.e. not just having Sting cleanly beat Hogan for the title at Starrcade '97, followed almost immediately a few weeks later by WWF having Austin win the Rumble and then go on to dethrone Michaels without much drama in March. Now granted, that's the main event scene; one could argue that more experimentation and unpredictability can happen in the midcard, and to some degree it should, but there's a lot of complaints these days about how WWE doesn't "organically build stars up", and one of the key ways to do that in your booking is to introduce a young/newer act to your audience and let the crowd watch them grow from people who either lose of the time or at least don't win "the big one" (whatever would could as "big" at that stage of their career) to someone who's expected to win most of the time. You do that by having predictability in your booking: Wrestler 1 is a "Tier C" character, while Wrestler 2 is "Tier B", so Wrestler 2 should logically win the vast majority of the time...until the day they don't, at which point Wrestler 1 might just make that jump to Tiers B or A or whatever. Again, I do think you can vary things up a bit in the midcard even with that context, but I get using it as a baseline for building stars over time. This is the take. Right here. If I could get my jumbled thoughts to come out coherently, it would be this. In regards you your post about midcard experimentation, that's the one gripe I have with the Owen Hart tournament qualifiers. I would love to have one or two upsets with an unsigned talent like Willow Nightingale getting in. Maybe they're saving that for the tournament proper. Someone beating Britt early could lead to good things.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,537
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Post by Bo Rida on Apr 22, 2022 14:24:06 GMT -5
It's mostly fine. What they're good at is making it as much about how somebody wins as the actual result. There's just enough suprise results to just have that seed of doubt and of course that means it's easier to elevate somebody if they beat those in the tier above.
It's not always straight forward, who thought Danielson keeping an eye on Mox would lead to them forming a stable with Regal and Yuta. Even when it started going in that direction they mentioned Garcia who was a perfect fit and they swereved him into Jericho's stable.
The main flaw is when the PPV title matches are too predictable, if there's only 4 a year they should nearly always be unpredictable (to a reasonable degree).
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 22, 2022 14:40:43 GMT -5
To be honest even with the benefit of being months past it having reached its payoff I still don't think dragging out Kenny / Hangman as long as they did remotely paid off. Hangman was already crazy over, it wasn't the best match on the show, it wasn't the best match either of them had in that general timeframe, it didn't see some slew of new viewers come in or anything, and given how he's been out way longer than he was expected to be with no sign of a return any time soon it seems pretty abundantly clear Kenny should've taken time off well before he did. It was a long, drawn out slog that could've reached its natural conclusion at Double or Nothing but took an extra six months getting there for no reason and at the end of the day don't think what we got was nearly worth the time wasted getting to it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2022 17:48:12 GMT -5
I was thinking this yesterday as I watched the show, I could easily pick a clear cut winner to every bout that was announced for yesterday's card - this upcoming Rampage's and every match announced for next week's Dynamite (except for FTR's). Going back, when would you say was the last time that the booking of a match surprised you? I'm not insanely bothered by it, as, predictable result or not, the wrestlers put on a show from the opening bell up to the finish - but I suppose I'd prefer it if there was a bit more of unpredictability to the whole thing. What say you? I am not bothered by it but nearly every match is easily predictable (yes even the danielson/page draw) but now you've got me weirded out...I can't remember the last time I was shocked about the results but I also can't remember a match I would have changed either if I have to keep the same people in the match.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2022 18:12:00 GMT -5
I can however say that I believe Dave Meltzer's ratings are inflated for some matches that had no heat or really anything other than "wrestle man wrestles good" and the prime example of that for me is Dustin vs. Punk unfortunately as I love both I just knew Dustin had no chance whatsoever so I tuned out and it is hard for me to say that is a 4 star match when it makes me feel that way.
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