The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,375
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Post by The Ichi on May 10, 2022 12:25:55 GMT -5
I've been attacked for my opinion in the AEW board exactly once, and it was from a poster that (I could be wrong on this) had to be banned for being too aggressively defensive. I'm just going to say that if you feel you "can't" post your views there safely, then the problem is with how you word them and leave it at that. I think that’s an oversimplification. I suggest reading Tea & Crumpets post, above, which is a similar thing that I’ve noticed. There’s 1000% more hostility to a pro-WWE opinion/AEW criticism than there is for the opposite, and it’s really not on how posters word things. Well in my experience it is, I don't know what else to tell you lol.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,375
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Post by The Ichi on May 10, 2022 12:28:34 GMT -5
I've been attacked for my opinion in the AEW board exactly once, and it was from a poster that (I could be wrong on this) had to be banned for being too aggressively defensive. I'm just going to say that if you feel you "can't" post your views there safely, then the problem is with how you word them and leave it at that. You can't say anything negative about AEW unless you're complaining about the overall booking of the women's division, stories taking a while to get moving, Britt Baker's booking specifically, stories having a weird middle dip in them, Tony Khan being a git to Big Swole on twitter, House of Black being lame, Hangman feeling like a second stringer to other guys, BCC taking a while to get moving, the number of stories currently in a holding pattern, Cody Rhodes's booking, Dan Lambert's sexism for heat getting pops, whatever the hell Sammy and Tay are doing, Satnam Singh's arrival being lame, reDragon suddenly getting mega TV time, "shiny new toy" booking, stories that drag on too long, a lack of integration of the Youtube shows into the main product visibility-wise, the number of talents who seem to live on the Youtube shows and never see the light of day, Jungle Boy's mic skills, the occasional train wreck segment, diversity at the top of the card, the way they won't do anything of substance with the Dark Order, a lack of effort to establish Danhausen to its audience... Damn, counted 12 things on that list I am guilty of complaining about. I guess I missed the abusive notifications.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 12:39:11 GMT -5
If it's inappropriate of me to be jumping in on this to echo others/offer my thoughts I apologise, but this thread touched on something I've been feeling for a long time now so wanted to chip in. Everything I say is just my personal opinions & experiences and I'm in no way trying to present myself as a monolith or speak for anyone else. I've been on this forum for a damn long time, too long honestly, and in the IWC even longer. I remember this place when it was part of WrestleCrap, John Tenta had a board, and there was a thriving traditional e-fed here (and tons of those characters still live rent-free in my head). It's changed, but of course it has- cultures, communities and forums are bound to change in that time. The IWC certainly has a history of toxicity, once it was generally a much less openminded or tolerant place, certainly less welcoming to women or LGBT fans, and flaming and trolling was common. This place always felt better than that for the most part, except for some of the thirst threads the worst you tended to get here was off-colour humour which probably hasn't aged well by current sensibilities. I don't remember ever participating in the Diva lusting to the same degree as some (although who knows, I've been here long enough to date back to my teen years), possibly made some jokes which wouldn't fly today, but in general it never struck me as an overwhelming characteristic of this board like some other forums which is probably why I gravitated here. But I'd say that pre-2007 or so, you got a lot of that in the IWC. From around 2008 to 2011, I noticed a definite shift, and this forum was I'd say the best wrestling forum on the internet then- aside from a couple of incidents/posters it was in my experience generally an offbeat, witty, but welcoming place where you could praise & criticise in equal measure and everyone got along with everyone. Not trying to say this is the definitive opinion on this forum- I was never exactly a 'known poster' like some on here then or still now, just my experience from when I was most active. I think a lot of problems that I observe now are more a reflection of / reflected in general culture getting increasingly polarised and antagonistic, I can pick all sorts of culprits from social media to world events to politics but things began to grow more hostile in general online around 2011-13. This forum took a litle longer to change in my experience, but my life was pretty busy around that period so I wasn't around much. I feel like things starting to grow a little hostile here around 2014- during the Punk walkout, Daniel Bryan rise etc. But also in honesty there's blankspots where it's hard for me to say because again I wasn't around here much, and when I haven't liked wrestling, I haven't watched it. In 2004-06 I mostly watched TNA, ROH and NOAH, or classic ECW. In 2007 I mostly watched CHIKARA until late in the year when I got back into WWE for a good run. I can't understand the masochistic hate-watching mentality. From around 2016-17 pretty much everywhere online was toxic and here felt like not much exception- it definitely began to feel to me like you couldn't like WWE without being subject to criticism (even if I wasn't much of a fan myself). There were probably elements of this beforehand- I'm sure John Cena fans had it rough online including here- and it's possible I (unintentionally) made others feel that way with my own criticisms of the product, but it started to get much more widespread in my experience from 2016 or so. I was so pumped when AEW launched- I'd been mainly a NJPW fan for a couple of years and a company hitting the sweetspot between NJPW and WWE seemed ideal. I didn't post tons but was real excited. But I lost interest much quicker than I expected, and then the pandemic pretty much killed any interest I had in watching current wrestling until the situation began to resolve- wrestling without a live crowd was just awkward and painful to me, no amount of staff members, trainees or videoscreens could make up for the lost vibe. Now I'm watching again and more than in years, I'm probably the most solid casual fan I've been in a long time. What I did notice though, even before the sheen wore off for me on AEW, was a continuation in this changed posting culture. There was very definitely a sense to me that criticising AEW was, while not off-limits, heavily discouraged and likely to open you up to a lot of flak, and that saying positives about WWE had the same response. Even though I was around this place more I was watching what I said more. It felt very reminiscent of the toxicity of a much older IWC except with different targets now, and wasn't something I was inclined to deal with as it's always put me off of wrestling. In much the same way as I used to love Rick & Morty but its fanbase made the product age quicker than it should for me, I think similar happened with AEW- the defensiveness and polarisation put me off of it, and particularly put me off considering myself an 'AEW fan'. I'd definitely not agree with the idea that it's a few isolated accounts or WWE fans larping, and I'd also not agree that (in my personal experience) I've seen it occur on the same scale from WWE fans- yes you get some sites or subreddits where people are waiting for AEW to put a foot wrong so they can spam and troll, and I suspect there's also people either seeing it as, or taking the excuse to, return fire and harp on negatives to 'get one back' or whatever. But I'd be lying if I said that I feel much more pressured to bite my tongue/be wary of offering criticism of WWE than criticism of AEW- or vice versa, I'd be significantly more comfortable praising AEW than WWE. And it's definitely not a mentality that has always been present here- back when TNA was on fire and WWE was in most people's eyes including my own, stuck in 'Cena Wins Lol', there was not this level of polarisation or hostility that I saw. Or at least, I didn't experience or percieve it- perhaps because as someone who was critical of WWE a lot then, I was more in line with that consensus opinion (although there's still plenty about WWE I don't like, hell if we were talking personal booking preferences Cesaro would have had the Roman push and William Regal & Paul Burchill would have been the top guys for years). But I can only go off my own best judged experience which is that if you praise WWE, or even just DON'T criticise WWE, you're in for a rougher time now than you used to be. And criticising AEW gets you a rougher ride than any previous criticisms did. Truth be told there's a shortlist of posters on here who put me off of ever commenting at all, which wasn't a feeling I used to have. I'd also be lying if I said I didn't miss large elements of the 2008-11 board culture, I'm sure there were things worse about it then than now (again, the acceptance of female/LGBT/ethnic minority fans was almost certainly worse), but on a whole, I miss the WCF/FAN of old, it felt a much more open and fun place (to me at least) and IMO there's not a ton of authentic fun left here beyond the annual Year in MSPaint threads. As for the topic at hand ie. the investor call, again I can only go off my own experiences, but I know significantly more people nowadays willing to casually watch or chat wrestling than at any point in at least the past 15 years. Maybe it's a cultural shift towards being more open with geek culture (which wrestling has undoubtedly become), maybe it's a generational attitude in some way, maybe wrestling actually IS getting more popular again I don't know. All I do know is I wouldn't dismiss any positive metrics in this call, because the past few years, even with the pandemic, is the first time in a long time I've been encountering NEW fans myself. I'm sure hardcore fandom is down, that there's fewer people watching every show or every week, buying every PPV, buying as much merchandise. But honestly? I can well believe that casual fandom has risen because I've found new fans, and not in or because of AEW- these casual viewers in my experience generally prefer WWE, or at least prefer WWE's characters and presentation, even if they might prefer AEW's in-ring product. Maybe some of that perception is because I'm a more casual fan myself now, but I find WWE more accessible for sporadic viewing, and much better for social viewing, while AEW I'm left feeling lost if I miss a couple weeks and it feels generally more geared towards hardcore viewing- which is easier done solo. Just a personal experience again, and not saying I don't have faults with WWE- there's plenty I'd like to see different. But I still want WWE (and AEW) to do well and can believe that they are. So many conventional metrics of entertainment success have changed these days, no property or product inspires the same universal appeal as once happened due to sheer accessibility and variety in options- there will never be another Beatles or Star Wars, to be more contemporary there'll probably never even be another Lady Gaga or Hunger Games. So you either cultivate a fanatical, rabid fanbase willing to pour lots of money, time, and enthusiasm into your product- to make them want your business to succeed for its own sake, taking on aspects of it into your identity & cultivatng brand loyalty (which is what I believe a lot of 'ethical marketing' is really about, Steph's cynical old comment on philanthropy comes to mind). Or you try to maximise the semi-disposable casual appeal and get a high volume of small investments dropping in and out, almost like scaled up microtransactions. AEW is taking one approach, WWE is taking another. If both do well, this is good for wrestling in general. So regardless of if someone likes AEW or WWE or thinks Tony Khan is a weirdo or Vince McMahon is a monster, regardless of taking on those identities to themselves- we should all be wanting BOTH companies to do well, whether they're catering to us personally or not (and in my case I'd say neither completely fits what I'd ideally want). A plurality of views, visions, and options is only good for the industry, and for the fandom too. This isn't to say that everything has gotten worse in the fandom either, there's been positive changes. I get the impression that attitudes and acceptance towards minority fans & wrestlers whether that be gender, sexuality, race/ethnicity, religion, etc. have improved on the whole, although there's sure to be fans still stuck in backwards mindsets. But there's also new stuff I've seen/experienced in online fans' attitudes, including here, that is not healthy, or if not new is at the very least, different yet reminiscent of old hostility that for a time seemed to subside a litle. And it's fine to want WWE to succeed, or believe that they are successful, or even to like the product, without it meaning you endorse anything along the lines of Saudi Arabia etc. (and I'll leave that there to avoid breaching the no-politics rule). And I'm not trying to say this is everyone's experience or observation, just mine. Maybe I'm just a grumpy, out of touch IWC oldtimer I don't know. But I've said my piece to get a frustration off my chest, and that's that. Spot on, this is pretty much my experience as well.
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Post by oxbaker on May 10, 2022 12:53:59 GMT -5
If it's inappropriate of me to be jumping in on this to echo others/offer my thoughts I apologise, but this thread touched on something I've been feeling for a long time now so wanted to chip in. Everything I say is just my personal opinions & experiences and I'm in no way trying to present myself as a monolith or speak for anyone else. I've been on this forum for a damn long time, too long honestly, and in the IWC even longer. I remember this place when it was part of WrestleCrap, John Tenta had a board, and there was a thriving traditional e-fed here (and tons of those characters still live rent-free in my head). It's changed, but of course it has- cultures, communities and forums are bound to change in that time. The IWC certainly has a history of toxicity, once it was generally a much less openminded or tolerant place, certainly less welcoming to women or LGBT fans, and flaming and trolling was common. This place always felt better than that for the most part, except for some of the thirst threads the worst you tended to get here was off-colour humour which probably hasn't aged well by current sensibilities. I don't remember ever participating in the Diva lusting to the same degree as some (although who knows, I've been here long enough to date back to my teen years), possibly made some jokes which wouldn't fly today, but in general it never struck me as an overwhelming characteristic of this board like some other forums which is probably why I gravitated here. But I'd say that pre-2007 or so, you got a lot of that in the IWC. From around 2008 to 2011, I noticed a definite shift, and this forum was I'd say the best wrestling forum on the internet then- aside from a couple of incidents/posters it was in my experience generally an offbeat, witty, but welcoming place where you could praise & criticise in equal measure and everyone got along with everyone. Not trying to say this is the definitive opinion on this forum- I was never exactly a 'known poster' like some on here then or still now, just my experience from when I was most active. I think a lot of problems that I observe now are more a reflection of / reflected in general culture getting increasingly polarised and antagonistic, I can pick all sorts of culprits from social media to world events to politics but things began to grow more hostile in general online around 2011-13. This forum took a litle longer to change in my experience, but my life was pretty busy around that period so I wasn't around much. I feel like things starting to grow a little hostile here around 2014- during the Punk walkout, Daniel Bryan rise etc. But also in honesty there's blankspots where it's hard for me to say because again I wasn't around here much, and when I haven't liked wrestling, I haven't watched it. In 2004-06 I mostly watched TNA, ROH and NOAH, or classic ECW. In 2007 I mostly watched CHIKARA until late in the year when I got back into WWE for a good run. I can't understand the masochistic hate-watching mentality. From around 2016-17 pretty much everywhere online was toxic and here felt like not much exception- it definitely began to feel to me like you couldn't like WWE without being subject to criticism (even if I wasn't much of a fan myself). There were probably elements of this beforehand- I'm sure John Cena fans had it rough online including here- and it's possible I (unintentionally) made others feel that way with my own criticisms of the product, but it started to get much more widespread in my experience from 2016 or so. I was so pumped when AEW launched- I'd been mainly a NJPW fan for a couple of years and a company hitting the sweetspot between NJPW and WWE seemed ideal. I didn't post tons but was real excited. But I lost interest much quicker than I expected, and then the pandemic pretty much killed any interest I had in watching current wrestling until the situation began to resolve- wrestling without a live crowd was just awkward and painful to me, no amount of staff members, trainees or videoscreens could make up for the lost vibe. Now I'm watching again and more than in years, I'm probably the most solid casual fan I've been in a long time. What I did notice though, even before the sheen wore off for me on AEW, was a continuation in this changed posting culture. There was very definitely a sense to me that criticising AEW was, while not off-limits, heavily discouraged and likely to open you up to a lot of flak, and that saying positives about WWE had the same response. Even though I was around this place more I was watching what I said more. It felt very reminiscent of the toxicity of a much older IWC except with different targets now, and wasn't something I was inclined to deal with as it's always put me off of wrestling. In much the same way as I used to love Rick & Morty but its fanbase made the product age quicker than it should for me, I think similar happened with AEW- the defensiveness and polarisation put me off of it, and particularly put me off considering myself an 'AEW fan'. I'd definitely not agree with the idea that it's a few isolated accounts or WWE fans larping, and I'd also not agree that (in my personal experience) I've seen it occur on the same scale from WWE fans- yes you get some sites or subreddits where people are waiting for AEW to put a foot wrong so they can spam and troll, and I suspect there's also people either seeing it as, or taking the excuse to, return fire and harp on negatives to 'get one back' or whatever. But I'd be lying if I said that I feel much more pressured to bite my tongue/be wary of offering criticism of WWE than criticism of AEW- or vice versa, I'd be significantly more comfortable praising AEW than WWE. And it's definitely not a mentality that has always been present here- back when TNA was on fire and WWE was in most people's eyes including my own, stuck in 'Cena Wins Lol', there was not this level of polarisation or hostility that I saw. Or at least, I didn't experience or percieve it- perhaps because as someone who was critical of WWE a lot then, I was more in line with that consensus opinion (although there's still plenty about WWE I don't like, hell if we were talking personal booking preferences Cesaro would have had the Roman push and William Regal & Paul Burchill would have been the top guys for years). But I can only go off my own best judged experience which is that if you praise WWE, or even just DON'T criticise WWE, you're in for a rougher time now than you used to be. And criticising AEW gets you a rougher ride than any previous criticisms did. Truth be told there's a shortlist of posters on here who put me off of ever commenting at all, which wasn't a feeling I used to have. I'd also be lying if I said I didn't miss large elements of the 2008-11 board culture, I'm sure there were things worse about it then than now (again, the acceptance of female/LGBT/ethnic minority fans was almost certainly worse), but on a whole, I miss the WCF/FAN of old, it felt a much more open and fun place (to me at least) and IMO there's not a ton of authentic fun left here beyond the annual Year in MSPaint threads. As for the topic at hand ie. the investor call, again I can only go off my own experiences, but I know significantly more people nowadays willing to casually watch or chat wrestling than at any point in at least the past 15 years. Maybe it's a cultural shift towards being more open with geek culture (which wrestling has undoubtedly become), maybe it's a generational attitude in some way, maybe wrestling actually IS getting more popular again I don't know. All I do know is I wouldn't dismiss any positive metrics in this call, because the past few years, even with the pandemic, is the first time in a long time I've been encountering NEW fans myself. I'm sure hardcore fandom is down, that there's fewer people watching every show or every week, buying every PPV, buying as much merchandise. But honestly? I can well believe that casual fandom has risen because I've found new fans, and not in or because of AEW- these casual viewers in my experience generally prefer WWE, or at least prefer WWE's characters and presentation, even if they might prefer AEW's in-ring product. Maybe some of that perception is because I'm a more casual fan myself now, but I find WWE more accessible for sporadic viewing, and much better for social viewing, while AEW I'm left feeling lost if I miss a couple weeks and it feels generally more geared towards hardcore viewing- which is easier done solo. Just a personal experience again, and not saying I don't have faults with WWE- there's plenty I'd like to see different. But I still want WWE (and AEW) to do well and can believe that they are. So many conventional metrics of entertainment success have changed these days, no property or product inspires the same universal appeal as once happened due to sheer accessibility and variety in options- there will never be another Beatles or Star Wars, to be more contemporary there'll probably never even be another Lady Gaga or Hunger Games. So you either cultivate a fanatical, rabid fanbase willing to pour lots of money, time, and enthusiasm into your product- to make them want your business to succeed for its own sake, taking on aspects of it into your identity & cultivatng brand loyalty (which is what I believe a lot of 'ethical marketing' is really about, Steph's cynical old comment on philanthropy comes to mind). Or you try to maximise the semi-disposable casual appeal and get a high volume of small investments dropping in and out, almost like scaled up microtransactions. AEW is taking one approach, WWE is taking another. If both do well, this is good for wrestling in general. So regardless of if someone likes AEW or WWE or thinks Tony Khan is a weirdo or Vince McMahon is a monster, regardless of taking on those identities to themselves- we should all be wanting BOTH companies to do well, whether they're catering to us personally or not (and in my case I'd say neither completely fits what I'd ideally want). A plurality of views, visions, and options is only good for the industry, and for the fandom too. This isn't to say that everything has gotten worse in the fandom either, there's been positive changes. I get the impression that attitudes and acceptance towards minority fans & wrestlers whether that be gender, sexuality, race/ethnicity, religion, etc. have improved on the whole, although there's sure to be fans still stuck in backwards mindsets. But there's also new stuff I've seen/experienced in online fans' attitudes, including here, that is not healthy, or if not new is at the very least, different yet reminiscent of old hostility that for a time seemed to subside a litle. And it's fine to want WWE to succeed, or believe that they are successful, or even to like the product, without it meaning you endorse anything along the lines of Saudi Arabia etc. (and I'll leave that there to avoid breaching the no-politics rule). And I'm not trying to say this is everyone's experience or observation, just mine. Maybe I'm just a grumpy, out of touch IWC oldtimer I don't know. But I've said my piece to get a frustration off my chest, and that's that. Spot on, this is pretty much my experience as well. This thread had had two long, detailed explanations of what people have experienced with multiple people chiming in to say ‘yep I have experienced that too.’ Seems to me that means there’s some validity do it. Some posters who are primarily very pro-AEW say ‘well I criticize it too’ also are in what I’ll call ‘the club,’ which means they constantly praise AEW and often begin critical posts with ‘AEW is great and I love it but this one little thing could be slightly better’ (I exaggerate but there’s often a qualifier). It’s sort of like that line in Animal House: ‘They can’t do that to our pledges. Only WE can do that to our pledges.’ I’m just saying read those two long posts and either conclude that they’re making it up (which seems highly unlikely) or maybe there’s something to it. Or if you want to see how it works, make a overly negative post about WWE on the WWE forum and make the exactly same overly negative post about AEW on that forum and see the difference for yourself. Go say the booking sucks, it’s a shit company and anyone who likes it likes bad wrestling — which you can say here without a heck of a lot of worry about the responses but not in the AEW forum. My question is, why is that? Why is there a hard-line ‘these are the damned rules and you better watch it’ sticky atop the AEW forum and not one saying the same thing on the WWE forum?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 12:58:45 GMT -5
I think that’s an oversimplification. I suggest reading Tea & Crumpets post, above, which is a similar thing that I’ve noticed. There’s 1000% more hostility to a pro-WWE opinion/AEW criticism than there is for the opposite, and it’s really not on how posters word things. Well in my experience it is, I don't know what else to tell you lol. Am I the only one who feels that gifs like this come across as condescending? Truly asking a question here, not trying to argue at all that this is your intent you seem like a good person. I've had this happen to me before where I post an issue and am responded to with a gif of someone shrugging and it just comes across to me as condescending. It really reads to me as if you don't care and aren't hearing me. Is that on me? I guess what I'm saying is it appears like your comment is trying to deescalate but the gif gives off the complete opposite vibe from the rest of your post and sort of clouds it in a negative light for me. Maybe I'm not wording myself correctly but I just fail to see how a gif like that helps the conversation. I am one of the people who avoids the AEW section more often than not and I think I spend a good amount of time reading over my posts so the wording isn't aggressive or angry in tone. I think if you're arguing that it's on how the posters word things then that is at the very least a two-way street and the issue is how both sides tend to word things, rather than just blaming one side over the other. I hate even using the term "side" here since we're all just idiots who want to discuss wrestling but it truly does feel that way sometimes. As someone who likes to take the piss out of wrestling, it feels easier to do that on the WWE forum than the AEW forum. We seem fairly united in taking the piss out of WWE but it feels like a few posters on the AEW forum will take you too seriously and sort of ruin the fun of taking the piss out of something sometimes. Sorry mods, I'm sure reading shit like this all the time must be very frustrating and I truly feel for you. Ichi I truly mean no ill-will from this post towards you either so I apologize if it comes across like that at all.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 12:58:45 GMT -5
Spot on, this is pretty much my experience as well. This thread had had two long, detailed explanations of what people have experienced with multiple people chiming in to say ‘yep I have experienced that too.’ Seems to me that means there’s some validity do it. Some posters who are primarily very pro-AEW say ‘well I criticize it too’ also are in what I’ll call ‘the club,’ which means they constantly praise AEW and often begin critical posts with ‘AEW is great and I love it but this one little thing could be slightly better’ (I exaggerate but there’s often a qualifier). It’s sort of like that line in Animal House: ‘They can’t do that to our pledges. Only WE can do that to our pledges.’ I’m just saying read those two long posts and either conclude that they’re making it up (which seems highly unlikely) or maybe there’s something to it. Or if you want to see how it works, make a overly negative post about WWE on the WWE forum and make the exactly same overly negative post about AEW on that forum and see the difference for yourself. Go say the booking sucks, it’s a shit company and anyone who likes it likes bad wrestling — which you can say here without a heck of a lot of worry about the responses but not in the AEW forum. My question is, why is that? Why is there a hard-line ‘these are the damned rules and you better watch it’ sticky atop the AEW forum and not one saying the same thing on the WWE forum? The sticky part makes sense in that on the WWE board you won’t have much pushback from the criticisms that are made so it often won’t devolve into a back and forth heated debate, whereas that is what tends to happen on the AEW board more frequently. The mods are typically very good here.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 13:00:21 GMT -5
Well in my experience it is, I don't know what else to tell you lol. Am I the only one who feels that gifs like this come across as condescending? Truly asking a question here, not trying to argue at all that this is your intent you generally seem like a good person. I've had this happen to me before where I post an issue and am responded to with a gif of someone shrugging and it just comes across to me as condescending. It really reads to me as if you don't care and aren't hearing me. Is that on me? I guess what I'm saying is it appears like your comment is trying to deescalate but the gif gives off the complete opposite vibe from the rest of your post and sort of clouds it in a negative light for me. Maybe I'm not wording myself correctly but I just fail to see how a gif like that helps the conversation. I am one of the people who avoids the AEW section more often than not and I think I spend a good amount of time reading over my posts so the wording isn't aggressive or angry in tone. I think if you're arguing that it's on how the posters word things then that is at the very least a two-way street and the issue is how both sides tend to word things, rather than just blaming one side over the other. I hate even using the term "side" here since we're all just idiots who want to discuss wrestling but it truly does feel that way sometimes. As someone who likes to take the piss out of wrestling, it feels easier to do that on the WWE forum than the AEW forum. We seem fairly united in taking the piss out of WWE but it feels like a few posters on the AEW forum will take you too seriously and sort of ruin the fun of taking the piss out of something sometimes. Sorry mods, I'm sure reading shit like this all the time must be very frustrating and I truly feel for you. Ichi I truly mean no ill-will from this post towards you either so I apologize if it comes across like that at all. Yeah, it’s not just you, I took it that way too. Like “oh well, too bad so sad.”
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,375
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Post by The Ichi on May 10, 2022 13:01:41 GMT -5
Spot on, this is pretty much my experience as well. This thread had had two long, detailed explanations of what people have experienced with multiple people chiming in to say ‘yep I have experienced that too.’ Seems to me that means there’s some validity do it. Some posters who are primarily very pro-AEW say ‘well I criticize it too’ also are in what I’ll call ‘the club,’ which means they constantly praise AEW and often begin critical posts with ‘AEW is great and I love it but this one little thing could be slightly better’ (I exaggerate but there’s often a qualifier). It’s sort of like that line in Animal House: ‘They can’t do that to our pledges. Only WE can do that to our pledges.’ I’m just saying read those two long posts and either conclude that they’re making it up (which seems highly unlikely) or maybe there’s something to it. Or if you want to see how it works, make a overly negative post about WWE on the WWE forum and make the exactly same overly negative post about AEW on that forum and see the difference for yourself. Go say the booking sucks, it’s a shit company and anyone who likes it likes bad wrestling — which you can say here without a heck of a lot of worry about the responses but not in the AEW forum. My question is, why is that? Why is there a hard-line ‘these are the damned rules and you better watch it’ sticky atop the AEW forum and not one saying the same thing on the WWE forum? Alright, you got us. The reason why some of us can be critical of AEW without blowback is our connections to The Illuminati. I won't be responding after this because I'll be in hiding for outing myself. Well in my experience it is, I don't know what else to tell you lol. Am I the only one who feels that gifs like this come across as condescending? Truly asking a question here, not trying to argue at all that this is your intent you seem like a good person. I've had this happen to me before where I post an issue and am responded to with a gif of someone shrugging and it just comes across to me as condescending. It really reads to me as if you don't care and aren't hearing me. Is that on me? I guess what I'm saying is it appears like your comment is trying to deescalate but the gif gives off the complete opposite vibe from the rest of your post and sort of clouds it in a negative light for me. Maybe I'm not wording myself correctly but I just fail to see how a gif like that helps the conversation. I am one of the people who avoids the AEW section more often than not and I think I spend a good amount of time reading over my posts so the wording isn't aggressive or angry in tone. I think if you're arguing that it's on how the posters word things then that is at the very least a two-way street and the issue is how both sides tend to word things, rather than just blaming one side over the other. I hate even using the term "side" here since we're all just idiots who want to discuss wrestling but it truly does feel that way sometimes. As someone who likes to take the piss out of wrestling, it feels easier to do that on the WWE forum than the AEW forum. We seem fairly united in taking the piss out of WWE but it feels like a few posters on the AEW forum will take you too seriously and sort of ruin the fun of taking the piss out of something sometimes. Sorry mods, I'm sure reading shit like this all the time must be very frustrating and I truly feel for you. Ichi I truly mean no ill-will from this post towards you either so I apologize if it comes across like that at all. Apologies if the gif came off that way. I just searched for shrug gifs and well, it's Leo.
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Post by Cyno on May 10, 2022 13:03:13 GMT -5
Tbh I'm surprised that mods haven't stepped in on this thread yet to try on get it back on topic.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 13:07:51 GMT -5
Tbh I'm surprised that mods haven't stepped in on this thread yet to try on get it back on topic. That’s what’ll make people feel better about posting their concerns... (though I guess a different thread might be the better forum for it)
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 10, 2022 13:08:03 GMT -5
My question is, why is that? Why is there a hard-line ‘these are the damned rules and you better watch it’ sticky atop the AEW forum and not one saying the same thing on the WWE forum? I might be reading your message wrong here and you might be asking "why don't they need to say that about WWE- see there's less backlash" but that sticky's 100% about trying to get people to rein in hostility all round- both shouting down of criticism and troll criticism. I've never felt the mod team here do anything less than their best to keep the forum civil and accessible. Which I will add, is one big plus this place still has compared to elsewhere- you don't get mods going on a kick here. I even feel a bit grovelly saying this but I do actually believe it!
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Venti
Unicron
Posts: 3,002
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Post by Venti on May 10, 2022 13:24:39 GMT -5
I remember someone calling me a "concern troll" or whatever over an AEW critique I made, despite me also posting things I liked about AEW around the same time, AND my 8 or so years as a poster, plus someone who was a forum lurker dating back to the Wrestlecrap days.
But as soon as you make a WWE topic it's all "WWE still sucks/I don't watch that crap" etc. etc.
Idk man, I feel bad contributing to the derailing of this thread, but clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way lol.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 13:28:52 GMT -5
This thread had had two long, detailed explanations of what people have experienced with multiple people chiming in to say ‘yep I have experienced that too.’ Seems to me that means there’s some validity do it. Some posters who are primarily very pro-AEW say ‘well I criticize it too’ also are in what I’ll call ‘the club,’ which means they constantly praise AEW and often begin critical posts with ‘AEW is great and I love it but this one little thing could be slightly better’ (I exaggerate but there’s often a qualifier). It’s sort of like that line in Animal House: ‘They can’t do that to our pledges. Only WE can do that to our pledges.’ I’m just saying read those two long posts and either conclude that they’re making it up (which seems highly unlikely) or maybe there’s something to it. Or if you want to see how it works, make a overly negative post about WWE on the WWE forum and make the exactly same overly negative post about AEW on that forum and see the difference for yourself. Go say the booking sucks, it’s a shit company and anyone who likes it likes bad wrestling — which you can say here without a heck of a lot of worry about the responses but not in the AEW forum. My question is, why is that? Why is there a hard-line ‘these are the damned rules and you better watch it’ sticky atop the AEW forum and not one saying the same thing on the WWE forum? Alright, you got us. The reason why some of us can be critical of AEW without blowback is our connections to The Illuminati. I won't be responding after this because I'll be in hiding for outing myself. Am I the only one who feels that gifs like this come across as condescending? Truly asking a question here, not trying to argue at all that this is your intent you seem like a good person. I've had this happen to me before where I post an issue and am responded to with a gif of someone shrugging and it just comes across to me as condescending. It really reads to me as if you don't care and aren't hearing me. Is that on me? I guess what I'm saying is it appears like your comment is trying to deescalate but the gif gives off the complete opposite vibe from the rest of your post and sort of clouds it in a negative light for me. Maybe I'm not wording myself correctly but I just fail to see how a gif like that helps the conversation. I am one of the people who avoids the AEW section more often than not and I think I spend a good amount of time reading over my posts so the wording isn't aggressive or angry in tone. I think if you're arguing that it's on how the posters word things then that is at the very least a two-way street and the issue is how both sides tend to word things, rather than just blaming one side over the other. I hate even using the term "side" here since we're all just idiots who want to discuss wrestling but it truly does feel that way sometimes. As someone who likes to take the piss out of wrestling, it feels easier to do that on the WWE forum than the AEW forum. We seem fairly united in taking the piss out of WWE but it feels like a few posters on the AEW forum will take you too seriously and sort of ruin the fun of taking the piss out of something sometimes. Sorry mods, I'm sure reading shit like this all the time must be very frustrating and I truly feel for you. Ichi I truly mean no ill-will from this post towards you either so I apologize if it comes across like that at all. Apologies if the gif came off that way. I just searched for shrug gifs and well, it's Leo. No hard feelings on my end at all. I think sometimes people just want to be heard when they post their criticisms so a gif like that just doesn't help anybody. This might get a little preachy or 1st year conflict resolutiony but at the end of the day whether a person thinks the AEW forum is good/bad/funny/whatever it doesn't change the fact that the feelings of the posters are completely real even if you disagree with their reasons for feeling hurt/happy/sad/whatever. I think it's important to acknowledge their emotions as real because they are regardless of if you think their reasoning isn't sound. I think if we acknowledged people's emotions more when posting it would help to deescalate a bit. A lot of people just want to be heard and I feel like the crux of the issue is a lack of people willing to listen. That applies to both "sides" here. That's also why I think locking threads hasn't been helping this particular issue because it just leads to people not being heard (although I completely understand why the mods do so, these threads must get repetitive and frustrating to see). Definitely a bit preachy... but hopefully that helps explain why I dislike a gif like that.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 13:29:20 GMT -5
I remember someone calling me a "concern troll" or whatever over an AEW critique I made, despite me also posting things I liked about AEW around the same time, AND my 8 or so years as a poster, plus someone who was a forum lurker dating back to the Wrestlecrap days. But as soon as you make a WWE topic it's all "WWE still sucks/I don't watch that crap" etc. etc. Idk man, I feel bad contributing to the derailing of this thread, but clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way lol. Yes I was definitely called a concern troll, in posts and I believe in private messages as well.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on May 10, 2022 13:34:18 GMT -5
Literally the first bullet point on the AEW section's pinned thread is "Don't smother people who have criticisms" and it singles out that you shouldn't report people for being negative about the show, which is apparently a thing some users have done. But it makes the framing of it as some kind of defensive-of-AEW mod overreach that has gone on in this thread is really disingenuous. It's addressing the issues on that board on the whole, not telling people "Stop saying bad things about our show it makes us sad : (".
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Post by polarbearpete on May 10, 2022 13:37:27 GMT -5
Literally the first bullet point on the AEW section's pinned thread is "Don't smother people who have criticisms" and it singles out that you shouldn't report people for being negative about the show, which is apparently a thing some users have done. But it makes the framing of it as some kind of defensive-of-AEW mod overreach that has gone on in this thread is really disingenuous. It's addressing the issues on that board on the whole, not telling people "Stop saying bad things about our show it makes us sad : (". I think one person said something about the pinned post and was told by others that it made sense and that the mods are fair here.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 10, 2022 13:42:25 GMT -5
Literally the first bullet point on the AEW section's pinned thread is "Don't smother people who have criticisms" and it singles out that you shouldn't report people for being negative about the show, which is apparently a thing some users have done. But it makes the framing of it as some kind of defensive-of-AEW mod overreach that has gone on in this thread is really disingenuous. It's addressing the issues on that board on the whole, not telling people "Stop saying bad things about our show it makes us sad : (". I think one person said something about the pinned post and was told by others that it made sense and that the mods are fair here. Which to be fair, could also have been them rhetorically asking "Why is that needed?" rather than calling it special treatment. Ah the joy of online discourse, where tone is absent and no other communication cues are possible!
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Post by oxbaker on May 10, 2022 13:45:55 GMT -5
Literally the first bullet point on the AEW section's pinned thread is "Don't smother people who have criticisms" and it singles out that you shouldn't report people for being negative about the show, which is apparently a thing some users have done. But it makes the framing of it as some kind of defensive-of-AEW mod overreach that has gone on in this thread is really disingenuous. It's addressing the issues on that board on the whole, not telling people "Stop saying bad things about our show it makes us sad : (". Sorry if I didn’t make my point clearly. I think the rules for every forum should be the same. You have AEW forum pinned rules and a lot of ‘dang it I’m making it clear here, you better stop or face the consequences, don’t make me do it again’ and you don’t have that in WWE. If you look at the examples given (‘we know who you are’ and ‘don’t post things like ‘the AEW women’s division is bad’) they seem to discourage, strongly, people criticizing. If you do, you’re a ‘concern troll.’ And look at some of the posts on this thread, which I’m sure you’ve read — there are people who say ‘I just don’t post in the AEW section because if I know what I’m going to get if I do.’ I think that’s worth listening to. All I’m saying: If the rules are the same, pin the same rules atop each forum. I don’t see why that wouldn’t be the case. Just a clear set of rules that’s the same whether you’re praising AEW or WWE or criticizing it.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on May 10, 2022 14:26:23 GMT -5
Ok, I’m just going to go ahead and lock this because we’re so far off what the intended topic is, no real way to go back.
If you have issues with stuff, we have an Ask a Mod section or messages, reporting, just ways of communicating grievances you might have.
I’m not going to address anything here because, frankly, this isn’t the place to do so and honestly, a lot of you should know that by now.
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Post by Error on May 10, 2022 14:46:56 GMT -5
I remember someone calling me a "concern troll" or whatever over an AEW critique I made, despite me also posting things I liked about AEW around the same time, AND my 8 or so years as a poster, plus someone who was a forum lurker dating back to the Wrestlecrap days. But as soon as you make a WWE topic it's all "WWE still sucks/I don't watch that crap" etc. etc. Idk man, I feel bad contributing to the derailing of this thread, but clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way lol. Yes I was definitely called a concern troll, in posts and I believe in private messages as well. I want to make a note, if you're being harassed in PMs, and you're comfortable in doing so, let one of the mods know. It's literally against the rules and we don't want people to be afraid to post or visit because they are afraid someone might abuse it.
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