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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 5:30:07 GMT -5
I didn't have problem with the outcome as Bayley hasn't been super impressive since returning as she still looks to be shaking off rust and I think Bianca is just simply better right now. However having her fight off all Damage CTRL by herself was definitely too much. Like they couldn't at least have some other faces help her out and take out Dakota and Iyo? Also made Damage CTRL eliminating Alexa and Asuka from the equation on Monday completely pointless. That last part is worth a discussion on its own. Like...why do Alexa and Asuka even exist at this point if Bianca apparently never even needed them!
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 9, 2022 5:41:19 GMT -5
I didn't have problem with the outcome as Bayley hasn't been super impressive since returning as she still looks to be shaking off rust and I think Bianca is just simply better right now. However having her fight off all Damage CTRL by herself was definitely too much. Like they couldn't at least have some other faces help her out and take out Dakota and Iyo? Also made Damage CTRL eliminating Alexa and Asuka from the equation on Monday completely pointless. That last part is worth a discussion on its own. Like...why do Alexa and Asuka even exist at this point if Bianca apparently never even needed them! I wonder how things would've went if Becky was part of the feud as originally planned. Like you think it would be even worse since she's another they like to book strong especially when she's face however I think in a way it would've been better in that she wouldn't be booked as much of a push over and shoved to the side like Alexa and Asuka have so at least Damage CTRL would be getting bested with even odds as apposed to Bianca getting the better of them by herself.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 6:01:16 GMT -5
That last part is worth a discussion on its own. Like...why do Alexa and Asuka even exist at this point if Bianca apparently never even needed them! I wonder how things would've went if Becky was part of the feud as originally planned. Like you think it would be even worse since she's another they like to book strong especially when she's face however I think in a way it would've been better in that she wouldn't be booked as much of a push over and shoved to the side like Alexa and Asuka have so at least Damage CTRL would be getting bested with even odds as apposed to Bianca getting the better of them by herself. Becky, to her credit, has a reputation for being incredibly unselfish whenever she gets actual input/influence on her booking. Like yes she was booked as overpowering, but never at the level Bianca is being booked at right now. I have a feeling if Becky wasn't injured, Damage CTRL would probably look more like a threat. Because unlike Becky, I've never really gotten the vibe that Bianca cares about how others are portrayed in the division, only about how strong she gets to look. And while she talks positively about other women in interviews, she never really commits to talking about how they should be top stars or are future pillars of the division. Where Becky is pretty vocal about how she sees certain women as top stars. It shows in how WWE has approached their booking as well. Becky, even while she was The Man, would still eat dirt on a regular basis during the buildup, even when she came out on top at the end of the day. And as Big Time Becks, she pretty much cheated against nearly every person she faced. While Bianca just...bulldozes over everyone and doesn't sell anyone or anything as a threat to her. Obviously it's not up to her, but right now working against (or even with) Bianca is a lot more harmful than it is Becky. I think WWE's booking of last night's match pretty much added a lot of credibility to a friend's theory (he's a lapsed viewer, so he doesn't watch anymore mainly for WWE putting all of their eggs in a single basket constantly), in that WWE would rather have one man/woman who makes them $1m a year, over like 5 men/women who each make them $500k a year.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 9, 2022 6:17:39 GMT -5
I wonder how things would've went if Becky was part of the feud as originally planned. Like you think it would be even worse since she's another they like to book strong especially when she's face however I think in a way it would've been better in that she wouldn't be booked as much of a push over and shoved to the side like Alexa and Asuka have so at least Damage CTRL would be getting bested with even odds as apposed to Bianca getting the better of them by herself. Becky, to her credit, has a reputation for being incredibly unselfish whenever she gets actual input/influence on her booking. Like yes she was booked as overpowering, but never at the level Bianca is being booked at right now. I have a feeling if Becky wasn't injured, Damage CTRL would probably look more like a threat. Because unlike Becky, I've never really gotten the vibe that Bianca cares about how others are portrayed in the division, only about how strong she gets to look. And while she talks positively about other women in interviews, she never really commits to talking about how they should be top stars or are future pillars of the division. Where Becky is pretty vocal about how she sees certain women as top stars. It shows in how WWE has approached their booking as well. Becky, even while she was The Man, would still eat dirt on a regular basis during the buildup, even when she came out on top at the end of the day. And as Big Time Becks, she pretty much cheated against nearly every person she faced. While Bianca just...bulldozes over everyone and doesn't sell anyone or anything as a threat to her. Obviously it's not up to her, but right now working against (or even with) Bianca is a lot more harmful than it is Becky. I think WWE's booking of last night's match pretty much added a lot of credibility to a friend's theory (he's a lapsed viewer, so he doesn't watch anymore mainly for WWE putting all of their eggs in a single basket constantly), in that WWE would rather have one man/woman who makes them $1m a year, over like 5 men/women who each make them $500k a year. That's true about Becky being unselfish. She did a lot to elevate Liv during their feud late last year. I don't think she gets a title run if she gets paired with Charlotte like poor Toni Storm was on SD at the same time. In Bianca's defense though she's in a different position then Becky is. Becky has been around much longer and done more and as a result is likely more comfortable and secure. Bianca while she is being booked like the second coming has still only been on the main roster a few years and is basically just being given the keys to the kingdom. As annoying as it is I can't say I blame her for not wanting to speak up to be less selfless and jeopardize her cushy spot. After a few more years of being on top then she could definitely afford to start helping others and maybe she will. We'll have to wait and see.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 6:36:27 GMT -5
Becky, to her credit, has a reputation for being incredibly unselfish whenever she gets actual input/influence on her booking. Like yes she was booked as overpowering, but never at the level Bianca is being booked at right now. I have a feeling if Becky wasn't injured, Damage CTRL would probably look more like a threat. Because unlike Becky, I've never really gotten the vibe that Bianca cares about how others are portrayed in the division, only about how strong she gets to look. And while she talks positively about other women in interviews, she never really commits to talking about how they should be top stars or are future pillars of the division. Where Becky is pretty vocal about how she sees certain women as top stars. It shows in how WWE has approached their booking as well. Becky, even while she was The Man, would still eat dirt on a regular basis during the buildup, even when she came out on top at the end of the day. And as Big Time Becks, she pretty much cheated against nearly every person she faced. While Bianca just...bulldozes over everyone and doesn't sell anyone or anything as a threat to her. Obviously it's not up to her, but right now working against (or even with) Bianca is a lot more harmful than it is Becky. I think WWE's booking of last night's match pretty much added a lot of credibility to a friend's theory (he's a lapsed viewer, so he doesn't watch anymore mainly for WWE putting all of their eggs in a single basket constantly), in that WWE would rather have one man/woman who makes them $1m a year, over like 5 men/women who each make them $500k a year. That's true about Becky being unselfish. She did a lot to elevate Liv during their feud late last year. I don't think she gets a title run if she gets paired with Charlotte like poor Toni Storm was on SD at the same time. In Bianca's defense though she's in a different position then Becky is. Becky has been around much longer and done more and as a result is likely more comfortable and secure. Bianca while she is being booked like the second coming has still only been on the main roster a few years and is basically just being given the keys to the kingdom. As annoying as it is I can't say I blame her for not wanting to speak up to be less selfless and jeopardize her cushy spot. After a few more years of being on top then she could definitely afford to start helping others and maybe she will. We'll have to wait and see. I agree, but at the same time I feel like Bianca's constant wanting to be at the top (along with never looking weak and no selling everyone and everything) just harms other women as well, who also need good booking. Like there's no room for argument now that while Bayley will probably be fine considering her background and her previous accolades, Iyo and Dakota were completely and utterly destroyed last night. And while it's not giving me the same vibes as Bianca losing in 21 seconds at Summerslam was, the way Dakota and Iyo have been portrayed since their callup means that if WWE is ever serious about wanting to make one of them a major singles star, it's going to take a ton of incredibly strong booking (both quality and length wise) to get them to that spot. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening as the fan support for them just isn't there (a combination of incredibly bad booking and also a lot of racial prejudice from fans, Iyo in particular has talked about facing a ton of racial discrimination from fans when she was called up), and I don't trust Triple H enough to actually fix it. People like to point to him fixing The Judgement Day, but they were already at rock bottom well before he took control of creative, as Vince and his creative regime had ruined the group. And Triple H fixed that. Where with Triple H, Damage CTRL was a group of his own creative regime and he's ruining it entirely on his own. And as a result, I don't really see him figuring out that Dakota and Iyo could be big singles stars.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Oct 9, 2022 6:41:34 GMT -5
Only because YOU don't think they are despite being shown otherwise. Maybe you see them as threats, but I bet this forum and majority of fans don't see them as one anymore. If Bianca can easily take them out all on her own, why should we take them as a threat? Answer that. Because they aren't a threat right now, especially when a woman who is completely beaten down, still manages to take all of them out on her own. Killing off their careers as future singles competitors in the process, because people are going to look back at this match and realize that Bayley, Dakota, and Iyo are not threats in the slightest to Bianca. 25 years ago, Sting would regularly take out the ENTIRE nWo. Names like Hogan, Savage, Nash. Did people see them as ineffective? No. The majority didn't.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 6:56:01 GMT -5
Maybe you see them as threats, but I bet this forum and majority of fans don't see them as one anymore. If Bianca can easily take them out all on her own, why should we take them as a threat? Answer that. Because they aren't a threat right now, especially when a woman who is completely beaten down, still manages to take all of them out on her own. Killing off their careers as future singles competitors in the process, because people are going to look back at this match and realize that Bayley, Dakota, and Iyo are not threats in the slightest to Bianca. 25 years ago, Sting would regularly take out the ENTIRE nWo. Names like Hogan, Savage, Nash. Did people see them as ineffective? No. The majority didn't. This isn't the defense you think it is. Just because something happened 25 years ago doesn't make it good or effective now. Also guess what the difference between the NWO and Damage CTRL is? The nWo was already a very established act with well known stars by that point. While Damage CTRL is a newer act with 66% of the group being unfamiliar to casual viewers. First impressions are key. And the first impressions given by their booking is that neither woman is anything special or worth supporting. Their booking has been not great since the first RAW after Summerslam. Let's look at their booking in the larger picture: 1) First night on RAW, get ran off by Bianca Belair, and Iyo almost loses her first official main roster match to Bianca after getting her ass handed to her for 95% of the match. 2) Have to cheat to beat Dana/Tamina (two women who are the lowest of the low on the totem pole in the women's division) in the tag tournament. 3) Have to cheat to beat Alexa/Asuka 4) Lose in the finals to Raquel/Aliyah for no reason other than a terrible swerve 5) Win at Clash at the Castle, but not before Bianca had to eat THREE FINISHERS in order to keep her down. 6) Win the tag titles, but get punked out later in the night by Bianca, Alexa, and Asuka. 7) Get the advantage on Bianca for a single week... 8) Who comes out the following week and completely no sells it. 9) Bianca beats Iyo in a match where Iyo got a whopping total of 3 minutes of offense in a match that lasted ~18-20 minutes. 10) Bianca gets beat down and all of her "friends" written out with injuries. But don't worry about that, because... 11) Last night, Bianca completely destroys Damage CTRL on her own, and despite being worn out in the match, completely destroys Dakota and Iyo like they were nothing. Do you still not see the problem? Because I will say it again. First impressions are EVERYTHING. There has been literally no reason to take Damage CTRL as a threat considering how they have been portrayed. Iyo and Dakota are both heavily damaged goods now, and it'll take at least a year of very strong booking to get even one of them to main eventer status.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 9, 2022 7:08:24 GMT -5
That's true about Becky being unselfish. She did a lot to elevate Liv during their feud late last year. I don't think she gets a title run if she gets paired with Charlotte like poor Toni Storm was on SD at the same time. In Bianca's defense though she's in a different position then Becky is. Becky has been around much longer and done more and as a result is likely more comfortable and secure. Bianca while she is being booked like the second coming has still only been on the main roster a few years and is basically just being given the keys to the kingdom. As annoying as it is I can't say I blame her for not wanting to speak up to be less selfless and jeopardize her cushy spot. After a few more years of being on top then she could definitely afford to start helping others and maybe she will. We'll have to wait and see. I agree, but at the same time I feel like Bianca's constant wanting to be at the top (along with never looking weak and no selling everyone and everything) just harms other women as well, who also need good booking. Like there's no room for argument now that while Bayley will probably be fine considering her background and her previous accolades, Iyo and Dakota were completely and utterly destroyed last night. And while it's not giving me the same vibes as Bianca losing in 21 seconds at Summerslam was, the way Dakota and Iyo have been portrayed since their callup means that if WWE is ever serious about wanting to make one of them a major singles star, it's going to take a ton of incredibly strong booking (both quality and length wise) to get them to that spot. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening as the fan support for them just isn't there (a combination of incredibly bad booking and also a lot of racial prejudice from fans, Iyo in particular has talked about facing a ton of racial discrimination from fans when she was called up), and I don't trust Triple H enough to actually fix it. People like to point to him fixing The Judgement Day, but they were already at rock bottom well before he took control of creative, as Vince and his creative regime had ruined the group. And Triple H fixed that. Where with Triple H, Damage CTRL was a group of his own creative regime and he's ruining it entirely on his own. And as a result, I don't really see him figuring out that Dakota and Iyo could be big singles stars. I think your kind of exaggerating a bit with Dakota and Iyo. Like a lot of the stuff with Bianca is annoying but they've also had moments where they've looked good too. Unlike their leader they have belts right now. On Raw they both got big singles wins. Dakota beating Candice who just returned and Iyo beating Alexa who is always treated like a big deal in the main event. Like they wouldn't give those type of wins to people they didn't see anything in. And yes they cheated but they're also heels. That's what heels do. Iyo lost to Bianca a few weeks ago but with how strong Bianca is booked there's no shame in that just simply because everyone loses to her. Dakota lost in 2 and a half minutes to Raquel but it was off a cheap distraction roll up finish so despite the short length she was "protected". If anything that finish made Raquel look weak in that she had to win by those cheap methods against a much smaller woman despite supposedly being this dominant power hoss wrestler. They haven't been presented perfectly but they haven't been presented terribly either. They are clearly figured in. It's not like they are being booked like Nikki ASH and Doudrop or something. Also I'm sorry I just don't see Dakota has a main event top girl type of wrestler. She's the perfect example of someone who is a "good hand" and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean she has to be booked as someone who is worthless as she can still be a very valuable piece in the midcard and tag division. However she's not someone I don't think any company is going to push as one of their top stars.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 7:18:36 GMT -5
I agree, but at the same time I feel like Bianca's constant wanting to be at the top (along with never looking weak and no selling everyone and everything) just harms other women as well, who also need good booking. Like there's no room for argument now that while Bayley will probably be fine considering her background and her previous accolades, Iyo and Dakota were completely and utterly destroyed last night. And while it's not giving me the same vibes as Bianca losing in 21 seconds at Summerslam was, the way Dakota and Iyo have been portrayed since their callup means that if WWE is ever serious about wanting to make one of them a major singles star, it's going to take a ton of incredibly strong booking (both quality and length wise) to get them to that spot. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening as the fan support for them just isn't there (a combination of incredibly bad booking and also a lot of racial prejudice from fans, Iyo in particular has talked about facing a ton of racial discrimination from fans when she was called up), and I don't trust Triple H enough to actually fix it. People like to point to him fixing The Judgement Day, but they were already at rock bottom well before he took control of creative, as Vince and his creative regime had ruined the group. And Triple H fixed that. Where with Triple H, Damage CTRL was a group of his own creative regime and he's ruining it entirely on his own. And as a result, I don't really see him figuring out that Dakota and Iyo could be big singles stars. I think your kind of exaggerating a bit with Dakota and Iyo. Like a lot of the stuff with Bianca is annoying but they've also had moments where they've looked good too. Unlike their leader they have belts right now. On Raw they both got big singles wins. Dakota beating Candice who just returned and Iyo beating Alexa who is always treated like a big deal in the main event. Like they wouldn't give those type of wins to people they didn't see anything in. And yes they cheated but they're also heels. That's what heels do. Iyo lost to Bianca a few weeks ago but with how strong Bianca is booked there's no shame in that just simply because everyone loses to her. Dakota lost in 2 and a half minutes to Raquel but it was off a cheap distraction roll up finish so despite the short length she was "protected". If anything that finish made Raquel look weak in that she had to win by those cheap methods against a much smaller woman despite supposedly being this dominant power hoss wrestler. They haven't been presented perfectly but they haven't been presented terribly either. They are clearly figured in. It's not like they are being booked like Nikki ASH and Doudrop or something. Also I'm sorry I just don't see Dakota has a main event top girl type of wrestler. She's the perfect example of someone who is a "good hand" and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean she has to be booked as someone who is worthless as she can still be a very valuable piece in the midcard and tag division. However she's not someone I don't think any company is going to push as one of their top stars. Yeah. I'm saying that Dakota is a main eventer as a hypothetical. Because you never know who is going to be a world champion someday. I don't think anyone thought Liv was going to be a world champion when she first came up to the main roster. Or Becky. But then they both had incredible fan support.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 9, 2022 7:21:50 GMT -5
I got a bit frustrated in the live thread at people about this kind of thing, and I kinda just elaborate where I’m coming from a bit better. I’ve been here a LONG time. As such, I’ve seen a lot of you guys come and go. But one thing that’s been consistent is the demand for “better”, whatever that entails. Common one of these is the hatred of dirty/protected finishes and the desire for all clean finishes… Which is fine, but we’re always saying that as though it should be a unanimous whole roster thing, when often it’s usually said in reaction to something happening to the individual. We’re never going to have peace where everyone is satisfied with the booking. Damage CTRL could go undefeated for the next year, we’ll just have a new 20-page thread with someone else saying that their favourites are being booked lame, and the cycle and the noise goes on endlessly. Hell, Bianca Belair was this person as recently as a year and a bit ago, after she lost in one move at SummerSlam. It can change that quickly. It’s so tiring to see the arguments coming from one or two posters who clearly can’t handle their favorites losing or looking weak. To the point where things are being made up about how the crowds reacting or what certain reporters are reporting. Especially where as here we’re talking about a cowardly heel group. We don’t always need the heels to dominate (especially when they still have the tag titles!)
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 9, 2022 7:36:30 GMT -5
I think your kind of exaggerating a bit with Dakota and Iyo. Like a lot of the stuff with Bianca is annoying but they've also had moments where they've looked good too. Unlike their leader they have belts right now. On Raw they both got big singles wins. Dakota beating Candice who just returned and Iyo beating Alexa who is always treated like a big deal in the main event. Like they wouldn't give those type of wins to people they didn't see anything in. And yes they cheated but they're also heels. That's what heels do. Iyo lost to Bianca a few weeks ago but with how strong Bianca is booked there's no shame in that just simply because everyone loses to her. Dakota lost in 2 and a half minutes to Raquel but it was off a cheap distraction roll up finish so despite the short length she was "protected". If anything that finish made Raquel look weak in that she had to win by those cheap methods against a much smaller woman despite supposedly being this dominant power hoss wrestler. They haven't been presented perfectly but they haven't been presented terribly either. They are clearly figured in. It's not like they are being booked like Nikki ASH and Doudrop or something. Also I'm sorry I just don't see Dakota has a main event top girl type of wrestler. She's the perfect example of someone who is a "good hand" and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean she has to be booked as someone who is worthless as she can still be a very valuable piece in the midcard and tag division. However she's not someone I don't think any company is going to push as one of their top stars. Yeah. I'm saying that Dakota is a main eventer as a hypothetical. Because you never know who is going to be a world champion someday. I don't think anyone thought Liv was going to be a world champion when she first came up to the main roster. Or Becky. But then they both had incredible fan support. Those two have more charisma and come off more like stars then Dakota though. Fan support was definitely extremely beneficial in both of their cases don't get me wrong but while there were doubts either would get there it was more because you didn't think they didn't get a chance because they weren't "chosen ones" which was obvious by how they were booked. It wasn't because they didn't have star potential it was more of a case of the office not seeing them as stars (at least at first) and therefore thinking they would never give them the ball. They both made it but in both cases it was basically just through sheer willpower and the fans continuously backing them and forcing their hand. Dakota has a following but it seems like it's more a cult IWC smark fan niche. I don't recall her being super popular with live audiences. Maybe during her face run on NXT in the late aughts although I'm not sure as I wasn't watching NXT during that period. The NXT crowd is a lot different the main roster crowd though so it doesn't always translate.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Oct 9, 2022 7:37:30 GMT -5
Bianca/Flair and Becky/Rousey are perfectly fine Mania matches. And I say this with Bayley probably being my personal favorite Horsewoman.
One benefit about Bianca being so protected is that losing to her doesn’t make the heels look too bad because they were beaten by a high power level wrestler.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Oct 9, 2022 7:42:50 GMT -5
25 years ago, Sting would regularly take out the ENTIRE nWo. Names like Hogan, Savage, Nash. Did people see them as ineffective? No. The majority didn't. This isn't the defense you think it is. Just because something happened 25 years ago doesn't make it good or effective now. The old school way still works here. Trust me, if a face has a strong enough division under them, any halfway average booker can push the hell out of them and have them whoop ass without hurting the heels too much. The crowd does want to see people they like win. Unifying the women’s rosters IMO is a much easier solution to the problem, but I wouldn’t call having a babyface champion getting strong reactions to be much of a problem to start with. It’d be a far more effective plan than just taking the title off Bianca right away before Mania.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 7:44:50 GMT -5
Yeah. I'm saying that Dakota is a main eventer as a hypothetical. Because you never know who is going to be a world champion someday. I don't think anyone thought Liv was going to be a world champion when she first came up to the main roster. Or Becky. But then they both had incredible fan support. Those two have more charisma and come off more like stars then Dakota though. Fan support was definitely extremely beneficial in both of their cases don't get me wrong but while there were doubts either would get there it was more because you didn't think they didn't get a chance because they weren't "chosen ones" which was obvious by how they were booked. It wasn't because they didn't have star potential it was more of a case of the office not seeing them as stars (at least at first) and therefore thinking they would never give them the ball. They both made it but in both cases it was basically just through sheer willpower and the fans continuously backing them and forcing their hand. Dakota has a following but it seems like it's more a cult IWC smark fan niche. I don't recall her being super popular with live audiences. Maybe during her face run on NXT in the late aughts although I'm not sure as I wasn't watching NXT during that period. The NXT crowd is a lot different the main roster crowd though so it doesn't always translate. Oh man you have no idea how badly WWE misread the room with Dakota in NXT. While I personally wasn't the biggest fan of hers (I didn't dislike her either), she was insanely over, no matter what role she was in. And when Raquel won the title and Dakota turned on her, the audience was 100% behind Dakota there. Triple H dug his heels in and doubled down on Raquel being the babyface, even though everyone was 100% behind Dakota during that feud. And even after that whenever they crossed paths again. Like...they couldn't misread the room any harder in NXT when it came to her. As for Iyo, her accolades speak for her. She should be a main eventer but I don't think she is going to ever get to that point on the main roster as there are too many other women ahead of her booking priority wise. Which makes me believe she's not going to want to be around in a year or two. Because she's talked about this before in interviews and in her autobiography, that if she feels like she's hit a ceiling, she will start to look elsewhere. She talked about her first job which was being a waitress, and she quit after like three months because he refused to promote her because "she wasn't attractive enough". And she outright said on After The Bell that she was pretty much done with WWE until Triple H contacted her. Because she had main roster aspirations and wants to main event and win the RAW or SD Women's title at Wrestlemania. But Vince had no desire to call her up, and she not so subtly hinted in a Japanese interview before Clash at the Castle it was because they already had Asuka. I think it's a pretty safe bet that if she sees there is a ceiling above her on the main roster, that she's not going to be in the company within a couple of years. This isn't the defense you think it is. Just because something happened 25 years ago doesn't make it good or effective now. The old school way still works here. Trust me, if a face has a strong enough division under them, any halfway average booker can push the hell out of them and have them whoop ass without hurting the heels too much. The crowd does want to see people they like win. Unifying the women’s rosters IMO is a much easier solution to the problem, but I wouldn’t call having a babyface champion getting strong reactions to be much of a problem to start with. It’d be a far more effective plan than just taking the title off Bianca right away before Mania. I think the issue here is that...if you aren't in the title picture in the women's division on the main roster, you don't matter. They pretty much never do personal feuds for them. The depth doesn't support it. But at the same time, the big two titles are pretty much on permanent lockdown going forward because its going to be some variation of Bianca, Becky, Charlotte, and Ronda holding the titles. It's why they either need a midcard title, or to actually get off their asses and start booking personal feuds for the women that don't involve titles. They do it for the men, so there's no reason they can't do it for the women. The only time they do non-title feuds for the women is when it involves a horsewoman. And on a personal note, I feel like once Bianca does drop the title, she needs an extended break outside of the picture, because there are other women who should be getting built up. It's better to have a deeper pool of credible women than one woman who is lightyears ahead of everyone else (and everyone else looks weak). Because if Bianca goes down with an injury, WWE is in very deep trouble now, because not counting Becky (and I'm not counting Rhea until she wrestles again), no other woman on RAW is over enough to warrant carrying the brand because they fed everyone else to Bianca and portrayed them as vastly inferior.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Oct 9, 2022 8:02:20 GMT -5
I have no issues with increased personal feuds or CTRL holding down a midcard singles belt, I’m just firmly against sudden de-powering or quickly having an ace babyface lose for “sympathy heat” or to get more upper midcarders over because I remember how WCW effed up Goldberg’s popularity and pissed away so much cash.
It’s a much lesser evil for an ace to be a little predictable, get laid out one week a la Hogan before getting revenge, and to go into some matches as a clear favorite than for them to constantly sell and get screwed over and over with a few pyrrhic victories (looking at you, Vince Russo and how you handled Booker T’s world title runs).
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 8:13:00 GMT -5
I have no issues with increased personal feuds or CTRL holding down a midcard singles belt, I’m just firmly against sudden de-powering or quickly having an ace babyface lose for “sympathy heat” or to get more upper midcarders over because I remember how WCW effed up Goldberg’s popularity and pissed away so much cash. It’s a much lesser evil for an ace to be a little predictable, get laid out one week a la Hogan before getting revenge, and to go into some matches as a clear favorite than for them to constantly sell and get screwed over and over with a few pyrrhic victories (looking at you, Vince Russo and how you handled Booker T’s world title runs). I think at the same time though, having the same woman in this case just completely run over the division and no selling the group as a threat doesn't help anyone. Even Hogan and Cena sold people as bigger threats than Bianca does. And there's an argument to be made that feuding with Bianca right now is actively harmful to your wrestling career in WWE. Like...it's definitely harmed Damage CTRL. There is zero doubt about that. They can cut all of the promos they want about wanting to change the division and take control but when Bianca constantly punks them out, it's completely ineffective. A good top babyface should be someone who sells their challengers like serious threats, and at least makes people believe that they are in danger of losing. If the result is a foregone conclusion, it's just not interesting. And that's the case with Bianca right now. None of her feuds have any suspense in them. And while that may satisfy you, it's subject to the law of diminishing returns. Eventually people are going to turn on Bianca, and it's going to get really ugly when it does happen, because she's displayed like zero actual character flexibility outside of calling herself the best at everything.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 9, 2022 8:19:49 GMT -5
I have no issues with increased personal feuds or CTRL holding down a midcard singles belt, I’m just firmly against sudden de-powering or quickly having an ace babyface lose for “sympathy heat” or to get more upper midcarders over because I remember how WCW effed up Goldberg’s popularity and pissed away so much cash. It’s a much lesser evil for an ace to be a little predictable, get laid out one week a la Hogan before getting revenge, and to go into some matches as a clear favorite than for them to constantly sell and get screwed over and over with a few pyrrhic victories (looking at you, Vince Russo and how you handled Booker T’s world title runs). I think at the same time though, having the same woman in this case just completely run over the division and no selling the group as a threat doesn't help anyone. Even Hogan and Cena sold people as bigger threats than Bianca does. And there's an argument to be made that feuding with Bianca right now is actively harmful to your wrestling career in WWE. A good top babyface should be someone who sells their challengers like serious threats, and at least makes people believe that they are in danger of losing. If the result is a foregone conclusion, it's just not interesting. And that's the case with Bianca right now. None of her feuds have any suspense in them. And while that may satisfy you, it's subject to the law of diminishing returns. Eventually people are going to turn on Bianca, and it's going to get really ugly when it does happen, because she's displayed like zero actual character flexibility outside of calling herself the best at everything. Is there no suspense or did most people think Bayley would actually win? Seems like the outcome was in doubt which is what you want most times.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 8:28:31 GMT -5
I think at the same time though, having the same woman in this case just completely run over the division and no selling the group as a threat doesn't help anyone. Even Hogan and Cena sold people as bigger threats than Bianca does. And there's an argument to be made that feuding with Bianca right now is actively harmful to your wrestling career in WWE. A good top babyface should be someone who sells their challengers like serious threats, and at least makes people believe that they are in danger of losing. If the result is a foregone conclusion, it's just not interesting. And that's the case with Bianca right now. None of her feuds have any suspense in them. And while that may satisfy you, it's subject to the law of diminishing returns. Eventually people are going to turn on Bianca, and it's going to get really ugly when it does happen, because she's displayed like zero actual character flexibility outside of calling herself the best at everything. Is there no suspense or did most people think Bayley would actually win? Seems like the outcome was in doubt which is what you want most times. I think people had the expectation Bayley was going to win because Damage CTRL has the tag titles already, and figured they would put the RAW title on her to add heat to the War Games match (they could easily have just had Bianca win the title back at Day 1 or the Rumble if they wanted her to head into Mania season with it). Also because it was a ladder match and it could have protected Bianca from having to eat another pin. But I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that after how Damage CTRL looked last night, the desire among most fans to see them in War Games is pretty much zero because all three members got punked by Bianca on her own. They were completely defanged last night, and if they weren't over before (even though that's a half truth), they definitely aren't going to be now that Bianca ran over all three last night. Hell, I'm already seeing people claim that Iyo and Dakota were never any good and are never going to get over because "they have no charisma or personality and aren't good at all in the ring". Even though that isn't true. The problem is that Bianca's booking is absolutely killing them with her no selling them as threats and dominating the matches she's in with them. And she's completely no sold them as a threat even when she got beat down twice. Like...Damage CTRL as a group has literally no ground for a rematch after last night, let alone something like War Games. There would also be the problem of the War Games match ultimately being predictable considering Bianca beat down all three members of Damage CTRL by herself last night. So no one would take Damage CTRL + Friend seriously as a threat heading into the match.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 23,587
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Post by asuka007 on Oct 9, 2022 8:36:12 GMT -5
25 years ago, Sting would regularly take out the ENTIRE nWo. Names like Hogan, Savage, Nash. Did people see them as ineffective? No. The majority didn't. This isn't the defense you think it is. Just because something happened 25 years ago doesn't make it good or effective now. Also guess what the difference between the NWO and Damage CTRL is? The nWo was already a very established act with well known stars by that point. While Damage CTRL is a newer act with 66% of the group being unfamiliar to casual viewers. First impressions are key. And the first impressions given by their booking is that neither woman is anything special or worth supporting. Their booking has been not great since the first RAW after Summerslam. Let's look at their booking in the larger picture: 1) First night on RAW, get ran off by Bianca Belair, and Iyo almost loses her first official main roster match to Bianca after getting her ass handed to her for 95% of the match. 2) Have to cheat to beat Dana/Tamina (two women who are the lowest of the low on the totem pole in the women's division) in the tag tournament. 3) Have to cheat to beat Alexa/Asuka 4) Lose in the finals to Raquel/Aliyah for no reason other than a terrible swerve 5) Win at Clash at the Castle, but not before Bianca had to eat THREE FINISHERS in order to keep her down. 6) Win the tag titles, but get punked out later in the night by Bianca, Alexa, and Asuka. 7) Get the advantage on Bianca for a single week... 8) Who comes out the following week and completely no sells it. 9) Bianca beats Iyo in a match where Iyo got a whopping total of 3 minutes of offense in a match that lasted ~18-20 minutes. 10) Bianca gets beat down and all of her "friends" written out with injuries. But don't worry about that, because... 11) Last night, Bianca completely destroys Damage CTRL on her own, and despite being worn out in the match, completely destroys Dakota and Iyo like they were nothing. Do you still not see the problem? Because I will say it again. First impressions are EVERYTHING. There has been literally no reason to take Damage CTRL as a threat considering how they have been portrayed. Iyo and Dakota are both heavily damaged goods now, and it'll take at least a year of very strong booking to get even one of them to main eventer status. Also the NWO were made up of guys who were already established. Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall (RIP), etc. they were already stars and the fans knew it. Heck Hogan, Savage, and Nash were all former world champs by the point already. Dakota and Iyo are still new to many MR fans and they have not really been presented as big deals/women the audience should be invested in so far. It is not at all the same situation.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 23,587
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Post by asuka007 on Oct 9, 2022 8:38:29 GMT -5
The funniest part is people thinking that Bayley is going to get a rematch at Crown Jewel and win the title there. Those people don't seem to realize that Damage CTRL got their asses handed to them by a single (injured) woman tonight. And while I'm not sure about Iyo (she might not want to go in general), Dakota definitely won't be in Saudi Arabia as she's bisexual. Which means it would be a straight up 1 on 1 match with no interference. And I think at this point you have a better chance of hitting the lottery than Bayley has of winning the title. I wouldn't completely count on Dakota's sexuality ruling her out of the Saudi Arabia shows, considering multiple LGBTQ talent have worked those shows, including the very much out Sonya Deville. Also Dakota, at least to my knowledge, has never openly clarified her sexuality anyway?
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