gl83
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Post by gl83 on Oct 9, 2022 17:24:06 GMT -5
IYO will get her time but it is gonna take some shuffling this is what as a massive fan of Io myself I have all but just accepted. It will likely take women like Alexa and some others either retiring like alot expect Alexa to do and the likes of Ronda to leave which you would presume shall open up spaces and possibly shuffling her off to SD to give her that oppurtunity at the chance for a singles title. It is a balancing act that can be achieved (looks at STARDOM who have a f***ing masterclass of women top to bottom on their roster) but Papa H has to get out of the Vince playbook of putting all his eggs into one basket. Seriously, the reason that NXT's Women division from 2019-2021 was so great was because they didn't just put all their eggs in one basket. They actually built up multiple people from Shayna Baszler, Rhea Ripley and IYO Sky to Dakota Kai, Tegan Nox, Candice Lerae, Ember Moon, Toni Storm, Mia Yim, Raquel, Shotzi, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2022 17:36:45 GMT -5
It is a balancing act that can be achieved (looks at STARDOM who have a f***ing masterclass of women top to bottom on their roster) but Papa H has to get out of the Vince playbook of putting all his eggs into one basket. Not knowing much about STARDOM, I have to assume their roster is big enough to allow for more conventional booking to happen without treading on too many toes. WWE’s roster of women probably isn’t bigger than that even if you combine RAW and SmackDown, maybe even NXT too. Idk if it is quite accurate from what I could find but according to where I gathered from there is a roster of atleast 40 STARDOM women. If you combine the current Raw/SD/NXT/UK women then WWE has more. But what I was getting at with my comment was more that STARDOM books their women to be way more highly competitive and so while you have your Unagis and Kagumas the losses don't really sway IMO (idk about a japanese specific audience point of view though) anywhere near the way it does when a female loses in WWE especially one of IYO's calabur. I am not saying it is an easy problem to solve but not doing things like having Bianca single handedly run through what is suppose to be the divisions top heel faction single handedly twice would be a good start.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Oct 9, 2022 17:43:30 GMT -5
Yeah the way WWE books is pretty much the opposite of how STARDOM does. STARDOM has top stars, but they make efforts at making it so none feel completely invincible. You believe that on any right now, even their top woman COULD lose.
Same with NJPW, Okada is their ace and he does not lose a lot. But there’s at least 5 other guys in NJPW that have shown they are capable of beating him on the right night.
By contrast, WWE books their top stars SO FAR above everyone else that 99.5% of the time, you never buy they will actually lose (no matter how many near falls they try to do).
It’s a fundamentally different philosophy.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 9, 2022 17:45:51 GMT -5
I think the only way you would be happy with Iyo's booking if she was always champion and never lost a match like ever. I get it she's your favorite. We all have our favorites and want them to do well and get upset when they lose. However with most of us we get upset if they are losing a lot, aren't in a good spot on the card, and are treated as not that really important. None of those are the case with Iyo. She's main evented several Raws, is a tag champion, is in a stable that's getting a lot of focus, and has been pinned like three times in the last two years. However I guess the company hates her because she lost one match against super woman #1 babyface Bianca Belair that went 15 minutes where she got a lesser percentage of the offense. That still puts her in a better position then like 90% of the women's roster. As far as kayfabe powers goes probably only the big four (Ronda, Bianca, Becky, Charlotte) are presented as being stronger then her. I guess you could argue Raquel and Rhea but that's debatable. As a fan of Becky I had to spend much of 2015-18 seeing her lose probably 50% of her matches despite her being frankly way more over than Iyo is now. I once watched Becky lose to Dana Brooke on TV. I watched her get eliminated in the opening minute of a Survivor Series match. I watched her get massive pops on TV then end up in the pre-show battle royal at Wrestlemania. We all have our favorites and want to see them win and do well all the time but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize this is just wrestling and sometimes your favorites will win and sometimes your favorites will lose. I love Iyo and have no doubt that the cream will rise to the top and she'll eventually be champion and have a bunch of great PPV matches against all the biggest stars. Now Dakota I don't think will ever be world champion but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. She's good but I don't think she's world champion good. Not everyone can get the top belt and she's in a fine spot right now with a very prominent role and a lot of TV time. Becky was actually who I had in mind as I was a big fan of hers too and was frustrated when she would keep getting the shaft in that 2015-18 period. However like you said it's just something where you'd just take the bad (all the examples you gave) and enjoy anytime they would actually throw her a bone no matter how small (SD title win in 2016, strong showing in 2016 Survivor Series where she was the last eliminated and first person to beat Nia Jax, long run in the first Rumble in 2018). I think it's a big reason why gravitated towards. Same thing with Liv later on. Even though it's frustrating in a way it gives you a reason to root for them because you want them to overcome and make it. On the flip side it's probably why I had a tough time ever being into BIanca and Charlotte becaues they've never had to overcome anything.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 9, 2022 17:52:14 GMT -5
Yea also if you assumed a 6-8 year career in the WWE, there will of course have to be some down periods where wrestlers will be cooled off or be in a filler feud. It's the nature of the cycle unless you are the top superstar or you take extended vacations when you aren't in the title picture.
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Post by mistery on Oct 9, 2022 17:52:52 GMT -5
As a fan of Becky I had to spend much of 2015-18 seeing her lose probably 50% of her matches despite her being frankly way more over than Iyo is now. I once watched Becky lose to Dana Brooke on TV. I watched her get eliminated in the opening minute of a Survivor Series match. I watched her get massive pops on TV then end up in the pre-show battle royal at Wrestlemania. We all have our favorites and want to see them win and do well all the time but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize this is just wrestling and sometimes your favorites will win and sometimes your favorites will lose. I love Iyo and have no doubt that the cream will rise to the top and she'll eventually be champion and have a bunch of great PPV matches against all the biggest stars. Now Dakota I don't think will ever be world champion but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. She's good but I don't think she's world champion good. Not everyone can get the top belt and she's in a fine spot right now with a very prominent role and a lot of TV time. Becky was actually who I had in mind as I was a big fan of hers too and was frustrated when she would keep getting the shaft in that 2015-18 period. However like you said it's just something where you'd just take the bad (all the examples you gave) and enjoy anytime they would actually throw her a bone no matter how small (SD title win in 2016, strong showing in 2016 Survivor Series where she was the last eliminated and first person to beat Nia Jax, long run in the first Rumble in 2018). I think it's a big reason why gravitated towards. Same thing with Liv later on. Even though it's frustrating in a way it gives you a reason to root for them because you want them to overcome and make it. On the flip side it's probably why I had a tough time ever being into BIanca and Charlotte becaues they've never had to overcome anything. Yeah, like...that's the huge problem with Bianca right now that is eventually going to sour people on her at some point. She never sells anything as a threat towards her. Hell, even when she lost the title to Becky at Summerslam last year, she came out the next show no selling it like it wasn't a big deal. Was never shaken or anything. Damage CTRL running wild? Not selling them as a threat. That's likely a huge factor in why the group feels...not great. Bianca completely and utterly no sells them as a threat, and its incredibly frustrating. She never has to overcome any adversity to reach the top at the end of the day. Everything is just a minor roadbump or very minor setback for her. It doesn't help that outside of two occasions, she always stands tall against them as well, making them look even weaker. The WrestleTalk review of the show brought up a good point in that the match last night did nothing but harm everyone involved. It pushed Bianca closer to Super Cena status, made her character even more one dimensional, and completely neutered Damage CTRL as any sort of threat. And it indirectly buried Asuka and Alexa as well, because it's very clear Bianca doesn't need either of them now. It's why I wouldn't be shocked if she ends up beating Rhea when they feud and no selling The Judgement Day as a threat as well. Yea also if you assumed a 6-8 year career in the WWE, there will of course have to be some down periods where wrestlers will be cooled off or be in a filler feud. It's the nature of the cycle unless you are the top superstar or you take extended vacations when you aren't in the title picture. I mean the issue is its incredibly unlikely Iyo even has 6-8 years left in the company before she decides she had enough and moves back to Japan to either go back to STARDOM or just retire and start a family. She's already 32 and outright said she was incredibly hesitant about signing a new deal as she misses her family back in Japan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2022 17:56:56 GMT -5
As a fan of Becky I had to spend much of 2015-18 seeing her lose probably 50% of her matches despite her being frankly way more over than Iyo is now. I once watched Becky lose to Dana Brooke on TV. I watched her get eliminated in the opening minute of a Survivor Series match. I watched her get massive pops on TV then end up in the pre-show battle royal at Wrestlemania. We all have our favorites and want to see them win and do well all the time but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize this is just wrestling and sometimes your favorites will win and sometimes your favorites will lose. I love Iyo and have no doubt that the cream will rise to the top and she'll eventually be champion and have a bunch of great PPV matches against all the biggest stars. Now Dakota I don't think will ever be world champion but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. She's good but I don't think she's world champion good. Not everyone can get the top belt and she's in a fine spot right now with a very prominent role and a lot of TV time. Becky was actually who I had in mind as I was a big fan of hers too and was frustrated when she would keep getting the shaft in that 2015-18 period. However like you said it's just something where you'd just take the bad (all the examples you gave) and enjoy anytime they would actually throw her a bone no matter how small (SD title win in 2016, strong showing in 2016 Survivor Series where she was the last eliminated and first person to beat Nia Jax, long run in the first Rumble in 2018). I think it's a big reason why gravitated towards. Same thing with Liv later on. Even though it's frustrating in a way it gives you a reason to root for them because you want them to overcome and make it. On the flip side it's probably why I had a tough time ever being into BIanca and Charlotte becaues they've never had to overcome anything. This is the longer form of what I have been trying in a round a bout way to keep saying in that Bianca is the worst type of babyface because she has no flaw.
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Post by Sparvid on Oct 9, 2022 21:32:28 GMT -5
Why are some people convinced that the only three ways to book wrestling are: A completely dominates B, B completely dominates A, or A and B are completely equal in every way and trades wins every other time?
"If you don't like this option, then that must mean that you want one of the other two, since nothing else is possible"
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Post by Von Wagner's Brownies on Oct 10, 2022 11:20:24 GMT -5
Well, the plus side (?) is, WWE Music uploaded their theme song.
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theironyuppie
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Post by theironyuppie on Oct 11, 2022 1:21:51 GMT -5
So it seems they're just going to do Bianca/Bayley again, but on the bright side, Dakota got mic time tonight and did well with it:
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Oct 11, 2022 1:24:55 GMT -5
That whole thing was a mess.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Oct 11, 2022 1:33:24 GMT -5
So it seems they're just going to do Bianca/Bayley again, but on the bright side, Dakota got mic time tonight and did well with it:
In a way despite being the least regarded she's been kind of the glue of the group so far especially as far as their promos goes as Bayley has been kind of shaky and obviously Iyo isn't going to contribute much in that area. In ring her work has been really good too.
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Oct 11, 2022 2:32:33 GMT -5
So it seems they're just going to do Bianca/Bayley again, but on the bright side, Dakota got mic time tonight and did well with it:
My favorite part was the beginning where Iyo looked like she was wondering where she was going to eat after the show. Overall the segment was fine. But, it's going to take the heavens and earth moving to make me care about the group. But they turned Judgment Day around, so we'll see if they can do it here.
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Post by mistery on Oct 11, 2022 4:54:45 GMT -5
They did an interview on RAW Talk as well. Bayley used the excuse she was in a ladder match a day ago as to why she lost. Dakota told Cathy that Bianca needs to stop sticking her nose in their business if she doesn't want to be targeted. And Iyo told both of them (Bayley, Dakota) to shut up and basically the interview ended there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2022 6:54:07 GMT -5
This is very interesting and while you may get a bit of a sense of what I am gonna say in the video someone posted of them in a bar. It is way more obvious on the RawTalk interview that there is a definite retooling going on with this group now..whethere by creative etc.
But Dakota pretty much back to her crazy hearing voices in her head character she was running with at the end of her NXT run.
IYO is alot more serious akin to the Joshi Judas and not so much the tweener version of her that we had been seeing.
And also something that may or may not be anything but IYO yelling at them to shut up seems to suggest something I myself suggested which was to basically slowly yank leadership away from Bayley (as she is terrible as the leader) and transition to letting IYO be head bitch in charge which I think works way better because she has a commanding presence to her that Bayley just does not have.
But also to me atleast they finally felt comfortable and sure of this act which I had not felt since it started.....almost like they are in the roles they needed to be in and can finally steer this preverbial ship the way they need to.
All that is left is to not have Bianca f***ing steamrole them next week completely killing what itty bitty ounce of heat they gained back lastnight....I have no hope of this.
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Oct 11, 2022 7:12:37 GMT -5
The worst part is this lame group is taking the 90% of the women's tv time on Raw
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Oct 11, 2022 7:23:57 GMT -5
Like I said last night, they can win all the beatdown segments in the world, but it won’t matter if they lose the actual matches of consequence.
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J is Justice
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Post by J is Justice on Oct 11, 2022 7:27:05 GMT -5
Not happy about Bayley losing again, but I guess Candice needed a win.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 11, 2022 7:51:25 GMT -5
This booking seems more of an indictment that Bayley isn't cut out to be a stable leader for a main event heel group. She doesn't have the star presence that someone like Roman or Gunther has, which makes it feel important when the group is on TV.
This is fine as not everyone is cut-out to be a stable leader, but I can see why Hunter has cooled off on them. For example, I can see heel Becky/Sasha/Asuka/Bianca leading a stable-like damage ctrl and making it feel like a big deal. I believe Bayley is fine as a single-star main eventer or if she was in charge of a jobber stable that is only there to take losses for her.
Of course, a lot of this could be mitigated if this group felt like best friends like the Riott Squad or Sheamus's current group. Also didn't help that Bayley came out with a pouty face before the match which doesn't exactly scream main event heel threat :/.
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Post by mistery on Oct 11, 2022 8:55:54 GMT -5
This booking seems more of an indictment that Bayley isn't cut out to be a stable leader for a main event heel group. She doesn't have the star presence that someone like Roman or Gunther has, which makes it feel important when the group is on TV. This is fine as not everyone is cut-out to be a stable leader, but I can see why Hunter has cooled off on them. For example, I can see heel Becky/Sasha/Asuka/Bianca leading a stable-like damage ctrl and making it feel like a big deal. I believe Bayley is fine as a single-star main eventer or if she was in charge of a jobber stable that is only there to take losses for her. Of course, a lot of this could be mitigated if this group felt like best friends like the Riott Squad or Sheamus's current group. Also didn't help that Bayley came out with a pouty face before the match which doesn't exactly scream main event heel threat :/. Like Fenderbaum said, even Iyo came across as more threatening in last night's stuff than Bayley did. And Damage CTRL was already in trouble their first night on RAW when Bianca and friends still ran them off, instead of you know...just letting Iyo pin Bianca, even if it would be a tainted win. WWE's absolute obsession with protecting Bianca is what is harming the group the most. It's John Cena level booking except even more harmful because at least he sold whoever he was feuding with as a threat. Where Bianca buries them both in the ring and promo wise. She'll get beat down one week, just to come out the following week and beat them all up, and then bury them in a promo. Hell it's not even specific to Bianca either. Look at Raquel as another good example of creative doing wrong with them. Having Raquel kick out of both Dakota's finisher and Iyo's finisher (that they hit back to back) was absolutely horrible booking.
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