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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 5:36:04 GMT -5
I really wonder how many of you watched WWF when Shawn was being pushed. Man...you really enjoy railing on Shawn, as if he was the only person who wasn't drawing during this time. Fact of the matter is, Diesel, Bret, Sid and Undertaker also didn't draw during this time. Like, what are the other options? Razor? Vader? Jarrett? Bam Bam? Owen? No one drew because the product was garbage. Austin almost single handedly turned the product around. Bret was a massive draw. He didn't draw much in the states, but internationally? He was a mega draw. Undertaker was already used as the "special attraction" at this time.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Sept 29, 2022 6:34:02 GMT -5
Bret was a massive draw. He didn't draw much in the states, but internationally? He was a mega draw. Undertaker was already used as the "special attraction" at this time. The ratings and buyrates didn't improve much after Bret took the title off of Diesel. Like I said, no one was a draw during this time.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 11:49:47 GMT -5
Bret was a massive draw. He didn't draw much in the states, but internationally? He was a mega draw. Undertaker was already used as the "special attraction" at this time. The ratings and buyrates didn't improve much after Bret took the title off of Diesel. Like I said, no one was a draw during this time. Internationally Bret drew. It's why Vince defaulted back to him.
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Post by Aceorton on Sept 29, 2022 13:28:02 GMT -5
I don't think Shawn Michaels works as an example here. From the time the fans visibly tired of the Boyhood Dream stuff in '96 until he turned heel in the late summer of '97, we're talking a year and change before Vince said, "Yep - he needs to be the villain again." And the strength of his push was scaled back even earlier than that. If the 1997 Royal Rumble hadn't been in San Antonio, I'm not even convinced Shawn would have reclaimed the belt from Sid before losing his smile. And Vince, by all accounts, LOVED Shawn.
Cena and Roman's super-pushes went on for YEARS with a large segment of the crowds hating on them. Vince knew he was the only real game in town during these years and just didn't want to listen to fan reactions anymore.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Sept 29, 2022 18:16:05 GMT -5
Cena got backlash because he was dealing with a toxic crowd, pure and simple. The “rebellion” was always overstated. No it was because they completely changed his character from what got him over and he was booked like superman. Let's not try and retcon history please.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 29, 2022 18:26:26 GMT -5
Cena got backlash because he was dealing with a toxic crowd, pure and simple. The “rebellion” was always overstated. No it was because they completely changed his character from what got him over and he was booked like superman. Let's not try and retcon history please. Nothing is being retconned. That Superman booking helped Cena become one of the biggest box office draws in wrestling history, so it was far from the universally hated thing so many “lapsed” fans like to claim.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Sept 29, 2022 18:34:09 GMT -5
The ratings and buyrates didn't improve much after Bret took the title off of Diesel. Like I said, no one was a draw during this time. Internationally Bret drew. It's why Vince defaulted back to him. I'm not going to go through a bunch of numbers to prove my point because the numbers are very inconsistent from champion to champion, but Bret's international numbers during the the New Generation were not significantly higher or lower than a lot of the guys from that same timeframe. Just as one example, Bret drew 3,000 fans at the Royal Albert Hall in London in March of 1994. In September of 1995, Diesel drew 4,000 fans at the same arena. I would still not suggest that Diesel was a better drawing champion than Bret Hart. And there's plenty of examples where the numbers go up and down. Fact of the matter again is that no one was drawing.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Sept 29, 2022 18:37:44 GMT -5
The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.
There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always--do not forget this, Winston--always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a poorly-applied STF smothering a human face--forever.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 29, 2022 18:39:49 GMT -5
The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always--do not forget this, Winston--always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a poorly-applied STF smothering a human face--forever. Knock it off with the Orwell comparisons. That’s bullshit.
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Sept 29, 2022 19:07:58 GMT -5
No it was because they completely changed his character from what got him over and he was booked like superman. Let's not try and retcon history please. Nothing is being retconned. That Superman booking helped Cena become one of the biggest box office draws in wrestling history, so it was far from the universally hated thing so many “lapsed” fans like to claim. It wasn't toxic fans booing him. It was wrestling fans who like wrestling just as much as you did. Just because you were able to ignore all legitimate points they made about his character doesn't make you better than the other wrestling fans or invalidate their points about his bad booking. I was a massive fan of Cena in 2003 and early 2004. Then I stopped rooting for him. It wasn't me being toxic, I just didn't like his new character.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Sept 29, 2022 19:50:44 GMT -5
The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always--do not forget this, Winston--always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a poorly-applied STF smothering a human face--forever. Knock it off with the Orwell comparisons. That’s bullshit. I've read comments from people on this very forum who wrote that they simply grew tired of booing Cena and acquiesced to WWE's booking--these posters decided to start cheering Cena because it was easier to do. These comments represent so perfectly the last two paragraphs of 1984 it's depressing. And that's not even getting into how the Ministry of Truth makes use of Attitude Adjustments when it comes to people like Winston.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 29, 2022 19:55:42 GMT -5
Knock it off with the Orwell comparisons. That’s bullshit. I've read comments from people on this very forum who wrote that they simply grew tired of booing Cena and acquiesced to WWE's booking--these posters decided to start cheering Cena because it was easier to do. These comments represent so perfectly the last two paragraphs of 1984 it's depressing. And that's not even getting into how the Ministry of Truth makes use of Attitude Adjustments when it comes to people like Winston. Fine with me. Two less people shaming me for enjoying something fun.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Sept 29, 2022 20:07:47 GMT -5
F***s sake, this whole “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem” attitude that seeks to make one set of fans more valid than another based solely who they like or hate… It’s a crock of elitist gatekeeping bullshit, and that hurts the fandom more than anyone supporting the guy you hate ever will.
Like or hate whoever, it’s fine, but no one fan is more important than any other based on that. Your problem is with the bookers and/or the writers, not other fans.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 21:18:18 GMT -5
Internationally Bret drew. It's why Vince defaulted back to him. I'm not going to go through a bunch of numbers to prove my point because the numbers are very inconsistent from champion to champion, but Bret's international numbers during the the New Generation were not significantly higher or lower than a lot of the guys from that same timeframe. Just as one example, Bret drew 3,000 fans at the Royal Albert Hall in London in March of 1994. In September of 1995, Diesel drew 4,000 fans at the same arena. I would still not suggest that Diesel was a better drawing champion than Bret Hart. And there's plenty of examples where the numbers go up and down. Fact of the matter again is that no one was drawing. Ok. Hbk is awesome. I get it.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 21:19:28 GMT -5
I don't think Shawn Michaels works as an example here. From the time the fans visibly tired of the Boyhood Dream stuff in '96 until he turned heel in the late summer of '97, we're talking a year and change before Vince said, "Yep - he needs to be the villain again." And the strength of his push was scaled back even earlier than that. If the 1997 Royal Rumble hadn't been in San Antonio, I'm not even convinced Shawn would have reclaimed the belt from Sid before losing his smile. And Vince, by all accounts, LOVED Shawn. Cena and Roman's super-pushes went on for YEARS with a large segment of the crowds hating on them. Vince knew he was the only real game in town during these years and just didn't want to listen to fan reactions anymore. Did you watch? Seriously. They shoved HBK hard! They acted like he was the second coming.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 21:20:35 GMT -5
Nothing is being retconned. That Superman booking helped Cena become one of the biggest box office draws in wrestling history, so it was far from the universally hated thing so many “lapsed” fans like to claim. It wasn't toxic fans booing him. It was wrestling fans who like wrestling just as much as you did. Just because you were able to ignore all legitimate points they made about his character doesn't make you better than the other wrestling fans or invalidate their points about his bad booking. I was a massive fan of Cena in 2003 and early 2004. Then I stopped rooting for him. It wasn't me being toxic, I just didn't like his new character. His character never really changed?
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Sept 29, 2022 22:36:27 GMT -5
Ok. Hbk is awesome. I get it. That wasn't the point. The point was it was unfair to single him out as a poor draw when it was a fact that everyone during this time didn't draw. If you personally hate Shawn's guts... whatever, doesn't matter to me. Just using mistruths to do so are unneeded. Did you watch? Seriously. They shoved HBK hard! They acted like he was the second coming. *sigh*
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 29, 2022 22:43:38 GMT -5
Ok. Hbk is awesome. I get it. That wasn't the point. The point was it was unfair to single him out as a poor draw when it was a fact that everyone during this time didn't draw. If you personally hate Shawn's guts... whatever, doesn't matter to me. Just using mistruths to do so are unneeded. Did you watch? Seriously. They shoved HBK hard! They acted like he was the second coming. *sigh* I mean... dude. Idk what else you want me to say? Hbk didn't deserve his push.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Sept 29, 2022 23:10:37 GMT -5
I mean... dude. Idk what else you want me to say? Hbk didn't deserve his push. That's subjective. Other than you personally not liking him, I'm not seeing any evidence.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Sept 30, 2022 1:37:48 GMT -5
I mean... dude. Idk what else you want me to say? Hbk didn't deserve his push. That's subjective. Other than you personally not liking him, I'm not seeing any evidence. I don't know about whether or not HBK deserved his push, but the crowd at MSG popping when Sid beat Michaels for the belt at the 1996 Survivor Series is interesting to look at. Was it simply a New York crowd being mean and nasty per what has been typical of the American North East? Or was that a collective expression of relief that Michaels' reign was over? Or both? It's kind of similar to when Edge beat Cena at New Year's Revolution 2006. Was that pop for a title change? Or was it a "ding dong, the witch is dead" kind of celebration? Maybe just another NY crowd doing what a NY crowd does best? And the 2015 Royal Rumble stands out because Reigns won, but the audience wasn't taking to him, even though they were still into the Rock that night. Was the match badly booked? Did the wrong guy win? Was this another coronation moment for Reigns that fell flat? Another hostile NE crowd, but in Philly instead of the NY area, as has been consistent with my other examples? The points mentioned recently about toxicity and focusing on the bookers make me think we should have listened to Britney Spears all those years ago. Specifically the chorus: History has shown that McMahon repeatedly was slippin' under when booking guys like Michaels, Cena, and Reigns. He was addicted to pushing them at the cost of everybody else, and made these guys toxic as a result, and knew they were toxic based on how audiences had repeatedly responded but insisted on the push anyway because Vince had his taste of a poison paradise. In these cases, what is toxicity if not unhealthy attachments--to the booking decisions of specific main-eventers?
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